Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

ok now I am thinking about how to do this much more simply....like this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiDoLKlksLA

Hugh-Jassman said:

ok now I am thinking about how to do this much more simply....like this video

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Don't do that. It's a huge nuisance to center the sprocket, it loads the spokes in a totally unintended way, and you have to do it all over again every time you (predictably) break a spoke. It's like a cute improvised idea for a temporary solution that became industry standard... for the crappiest industry ever.

How about this one???
I never thought it could be so dificult to find a way to use a sprocket on the left side. But there is another easyer mounting beraket that I had measured out to not work. But it was made by another company. So I should see about fiting this one on my hub.

https://mbrebel.com/product/1-250-1-258in-32mm-sprocket-adapter-u-s-a-for-occ-freewheel-hubs/

Hugh-Jassman said:

How about this one???
I never thought it could be so dificult to find a way to use a sprocket on the left side. But there is another easyer mounting beraket that I had measured out to not work. But it was made by another company. So I should see about fiting this one on my hub.

Click to expand...

Is that a Manic Mechanic mount? Those are a great solution, but they're made to fit coaster brakes. You are not likely to find a cassette hub with a compatible body diameter. Maybe an old style White Industries hub?

But then replacement parts for the cassette might be unobtainable. If it fits, it's worth asking White Industries if parts are still available.

If you don't find a hub with exactly the right diameter, or else get Manic Mechanic or someone else to make you a special version for your hub, the the sprocket won't run concentric and your chain tension will be all over the place. But if you succeed in either one of those things, that mount would be an excellent option.

Keep in mind that it's not keyed to the hub, and it depends on clamping alone to transmit whatever torque you feed it. If the fit isn't ideal, it will slip and possibly damage the hub shell.

My velocity hub is 1.38 inch or 35.05mm thick, so it does not fit any of their sprocket adapters like that. [MBRebel SKU: 20123] Unless I could put the adapter on a lathe and remove 1.5mm on the inside hole to make it 3mm wider.
Other wise I have exhausted all the options that I know of.....so maybe I will have to find someone that can do the adapter on a lathe, but I'm still not sure that it will fit....because I don't know the bolt “protuberances” height, yet.

MBR also has two more that are larger, but the lathe option is about it. I was also thinking about scribing the sufaces where the gadget clamps the hub...and maybe even a bit of epoxy.

$67 equels 50pounds sterling aprox. plus shipping from england...
for the older models 2015... 36 spokes
maybe I really should rebuild my wheel...

https://osetbikes.com/gb/parts/pre-2015-parts/hubs/rear-hub-for-16-0-racing-pre-2015/



The spec on the hub is: 3/8 axle, aluminum red anodized, 12g X 28H X129mm X 170mm. Or 36H for spoke quantity.

With a tape measure the outside to outside of the hub is 5” and overall width is 6 ¾”. Approximately.

They are $69.95 plus shipping. Shipping USPS Flat Rate is $16.35.

I like that hub a lot it's got no rim offset so it will make a lovely balanced wheel, Might be able to use 12g spokes with that.

Make sure to show us your creation

Ianhill said:

Might be able to use 12g spokes with that.

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DON'T do that. 12ga spokes reduce the amount of weight and torque your wheel can reliably withstand by almost half, compared to 14ga spokes.

Please explain more chalos, how can thicker take less ?
My mxus has 10 gauge spokes and I have a front wheel with 12 gauge spokes so I'm keen to learn something by here. I know the spoke tension changes but the rim strength is halfed ?, I'll be getting some cast alloys if that's the case.

Mind I've done over a 500 miles on that rim on road and off road still true as a die so I'd like to know your logic to the madness if you get my drift.

Stock the rim had 13g sapim spokes with a 20 inch rim, I used 12 gauge spokes on a 16 inch moped rim and opened the hub flange holes barely took the paint off them so there's plenty of meat and no signs of cracking anywhere, when I ride the wheel it feels very solid no flex around bends etc, and the mxus won't lace up with out 10 gauge spokes the 13g where like a micropenis in a super sized vagina.

I will say though that the a2b metro is no light bike and it is around 40kg mark.

I get the larger wheels need less spoking as they are not so rigid but half the strength from stepping up a spoke gauge and using a wider stronger walled rim ?

Ianhill said:

Please explain more chalos, how can thicker take less ?
My mxus has 10 gauge spokes and I have a front wheel with 12 gauge spokes so I'm keen to learn something by here.

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Wheels remain reliable and trouble-free only to the degree that their spokes stay tight when loaded. The largest loads on wheels (weight, bumps, and torque) all have the effect of dynamically reducing tension in some spokes. For example, when you apply weight to a bike's axle, the rim flexes inward a small amount above the contact patch, and the spokes in that area are reduced in tension.

For a spoke to stay tight when the wheel is being loaded, it must already be stretched enough elastically to follow the rim's flex without becoming slack. The thinner the spoke, the greater the stretch at any given tension.

A 12ga spoke is about 2.7mm in diameter. A 14ga spoke is about 2.0mm in diameter. So the 12ga spoke has about 1.8 times as much cross-sectional area, and requires 1.8 times as much tension on it to exhibit the same amount of elastic stretch. Thing is, bicycle rims can only withstand so much tension before the holes pucker or crack. So it's the rim and not the spokes that limit how much spoke tension you can use. 14ga spokes are already capable of being tightened to the limits of bicycle rims. Same goes for 14-15ga double butted spokes.

Using 12ga spokes on bicycle rims means their limited amount of stretch makes them go slack at about 55% of the weight or dynamic load that would slacken a 14ga spoke tightened to the same static tension. When spokes go slack periodically, their nipples unscrew and they chafe the holes in the hub and rim.

In my world, this is a chronic problem with hub motors used on pedicabs. Pedicabs carry a lot of weight-- up to a ton or more these days-- and being trikes, they strongly side load their wheels whenever they change direction. Most hub motors come with 12ga spokes, and these never stay tight when used on a working pedicab. Wheels come out of true, and wobbly unsupported rims become bent, and rim holes crack under the stress. When I rebuild these wheels, I make a few changes that radically increase their reliability. I use bigger, stiffer rims. I increase spoke bracing angle as much as I can, by lacing spokes all outside the hub flanges and by lacing across to the opposite side of the rim if the holes are staggered. And I use 14ga spokes, or--if the customer allows it and I can get the right length-- 14-15ga butted spokes. These wheels are much more reliable with much less maintenance than any pedicab wheels featuring 12ga spokes.

If you use motorcycle rims, those are thick and heavy enough to withstand very high spoke tension. And they're stiffer, so they flex less in response to any given force placed on them. So it's fine to use thick spokes, as long as they are kept suitably tight. That's why they're drilled for fat spokes. Your hubs may or may not cope with elevated spoke tension or with being drilled out for thicker spokes. Their flanges can break or pull through.

Here's a wheel I built yesterday for one of my own e-bike projects. It has the qualities that will allow it to carry lots of weight and brake torque for how much the wheel weighs: massive double walled 20" aluminum rim, highly tangential spoke lacing, and 14ga stainless steel spokes. This wheel weighs only 1.3kg without a tire installed. I know from experience that it would work for an overloaded pedicab, and there's no doubt it would work flawlessly for your bike regardless how fast you go.

How much does your front wheel weigh to do the same job?

That wheel is smart, My wheel weighs just under 1.4kg no tyre.

So I need to keep an eye on the front hub flange to assure there's no crack's or peeling out and the back should be fine as is.

I done a 3 cross pattern reverse every alternative spoke slightly longer spokes one side to offset.

The rear was more difficult and the spoke angle was greater so I used a e cross pattern all heads on ine side with differing length spoke on each side, the spoke bend and angle happened in different places to get the wheel centred where I needed it.

Totally new to this game I spoked a wheel as a kid and mucked it up so I took the time to build a wooden truing stand get all my measurements bang on and used the ca motor app to get my spoke lengths.

I dont think i couod get the mxus in a smaller rim i worked out the top speed at 36v to be 20mph and with 40amps I had loads of torque at the wheel so I thought I might as well go single speed to simplify the chain line and use a better tensioner so it's fairly silent compared to stock.

Cheers for the explanation.

My spokes are the sapim 13g at the flange and swage down to 14g....so I was aware of the stretch factor...

This double sprocket freewheel for mounting on the motor shaft does fit the two large chainreings about 9mm apart. So I can use two single speed chains to drive the crank, then a larger chain from two(?) 40T chainrings (pressed together) back to a smaller sprocket on the freehub body.

but it needs a smooth spindle, without key way on the spindle... so now they tell me it cannot be used on this motor I got.

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/Parts.html

Are those head lights up near the handle bars? Tell me what lights...I have been using hand torches...to flash light in the eyes of drivers, it is triky to keep the light out of their eyes.

That is a nice bike with those big tires. What brand and size are they? What size rim?

If I do rebuild the rear I will be able to put a larger tyre on the rear. I was looking at 19inch tires and 2.75” is available not DOT aproved. And if I could go up to 3.5inch, but that maybe a tight squeeze. With the chain. I will have to wait till it is working before I think about a wider tire.

What is the widest tire I can put on a 1.8inch rim?

The 19inch tire that is on there now is only 2ply, so I don't trust it. I already had a small punture on the front 4ply tire, so I put another tire inside to make sure i don't get another flat tire.

That is why my bike is so heavy that it takes two men to lift it. I just keep adding weight to it. And with the motor and battery it will take three able body men to lift it. I will weight it at the trash dump later...before I do the build thread with photos.....

That is rather counter intuitive to use thiner spokes for heavyer loads....maybe I should use even thiner spokes if I build a new rear wheel. 14g swaged to 15g in the middle...which brand would I find in double swagged of that size??

Hugh-Jassman said:

That is rather counter intuitive to use thiner spokes for heavyer loads....maybe I should use even thiner spokes if I build a new rear wheel. 14g swaged to 15g in the middle...which brand would I find in double swagged of that size??

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Best deal on top quality 14-15ga spokes in unusual lengths is Dan's Competition. They also offer 14-17ga spokes, which are useful for the left sides of dished rear wheels.

The rims I found cheap for an mz motor bike they are alloy and 36h with angled nipple holes, the front is a 1.6 and the rear a 2.15, I got michlien tyres but they wouldn't fit for some strange reason I'm thinking I'm rim is an odd size, The original 20 inch kenda 3.00 fat bike tyres fitted a treat with a tube setup on the original bmx rims they were terrible side wall was dangerous any turns and I'd hear them peeling on these rims they are much more seated and the wall sits flat on the rear and slight dome to the front handles a bit like a motorbike at slow speeds the bars need a opposite flick and there more of a lean into the bend on the bike than before it it's mostly all new everything's changed the ride height the shocks the gearing it's smooth for my first proper attempt at a bike.

Chalos you would know this one i wonder what spoke options are available for a 10 gauge tapper I've seen them go to 12 but in my case it was pointless as the nipple shared the same 6.4mm diameter, it got bit of a pain to be honest sorting out the alignment and choosing parts went on forever and I had a tight budget the whole bike comes in at a grand sterling with the mods and I've not touched the battery yet.

I really like that oset hub for £50 I might get one I've got a set of dx32 bmx rims that would be my second rim build experience with more appropriate spokes, the mxus threw me off and I wanted it to match front to rear.

I'm impressed with those rims of yours. All the motorbike rims I have built or checked out firsthand weigh more than a complete bicycle wheel.

For nipples that go into 10ga rim holes but use smaller spokes, I would contact John Rob Holmes (holmeshobbies) and see if he still has any. As I recall, he used to stock 10ga nipples with 12ga and 13ga threads. I don't think he ever did 14ga threads, but motorcycle rims don't need those anyway.

Thank you chalos.

Best of luck with the goat Hugh.
The lights are 12-80v cree u3 led spotlight's they have 3 setting's strobe low and high but there's a small chip inside if it's removed they just do high so that's what mine are doing, I can only fit them to the bars like that due to the frame there's no top tube to hit when the bars turn most bikes won't work with lights fitted like Johnny 5 eyes.

I've spotted the vescs they do 12s upto 100amps with either foc, bldc or sensorless control and all the settings under the sun, It does a mappable throttle and the option for a button to flip it into a regen lever so my handle bar setup would stay as is and I'd have ultimate control it can even do Bluetooth and give full data logging just amazing compared to the brushed controllers I started with years ago.

I just looked at Holmes Hobbies's website, and found there were "moped nipples", meaning 10ga size, tapped for 12ga, 13ga, and 14ga spokes.

https://holmeshobbies.com/bike-and-moped/spokes/14g-moped-nipple-silver.html

This represents the best possible way to mate moped or motocross rims to bicycle hubs.

Chalo said:

I just looked at Holmes Hobbies's website, and found there were "moped nipples", meaning 10ga size, tapped for 12ga, 13ga, and 14ga spokes.

https://holmeshobbies.com/bike-and-moped/spokes/14g-moped-nipple-silver.html

This represents the best possible way to mate moped or motocross rims to bicycle hubs.

Click to expand...

That would have saved me a lot of effort, If i had used those nipples i wouldnt of even needed spokes the hubs flange of the mxus 45h fits the a2b stock hub exactly.

Im not sure I would have gone single speed or shifted the hub 5.6mm to the sprocket side so the chain line is straight and the hub is seated central rather than shifted to the disc side to accommodate the cassette.

I never rode the ride stock I had it spares or repairs and I cracked the motor opening it then the nightmare began, but after a year of saving and potching it's unique in the way it looks and rides with no gears Its been a learning curve that's still got a long ways to go, I'll be keeping lower voltages than most but going for FOC 6 step commution and 90 20700 cells then I can wrap it up as a lovely commuter with serious range.

Chalo said:

I just looked at Holmes Hobbies's website, and found there were "moped nipples", meaning 10ga size, tapped for 12ga, 13ga, and 14ga spokes.

https://holmeshobbies.com/bike-and-moped/spokes/14g-moped-nipple-silver.html

This represents the best possible way to mate moped or motocross rims to bicycle hubs.

Click to expand...

I just saw this on Cyclone TW website
72 pcs 10G nipples with # 14 thread for #14 sprokes and tool 30 USD
then came to the forum and read your post.

I usually go with 13/14 double butted Sapims.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=94449&p=1392737#p1391664

And I use 14ga spokes, or--if the customer allows it and I can get the right length-- 14-15ga butted spokes. These wheels are much more reliable with much less maintenance than any pedicab wheels featuring 12ga spokes.

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Reading your post about 12G it all makes sense to go thinner and use a strong rim.

and then if I could use a gates belt I would have the best bike possible.....or maybe a 3D printed pulley for a timing belt.
https://www.electricbike.com/gates-belt-bbs02/

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=92388

Now your talking I'd love a belt drive on a hub with Foc it be so silent be quieter than walking, I'm swapping to a 130bcd hollowtech crank and a 56tooth front ring but I'll still need a tensioner as my chain length changes as the swing arm moves that's why a belt drive would be more difficult I'd need to have adjustable tensioner and a metre and half of kevlar belt.

A bmx type wheel mount that allows the wheel to slide back and forth in the frame be the easiest way of assuring good tension in the simplest way but it means the rear must be a hard tail to pull it off.

Ianhill said:

A bmx type wheel mount that allows the wheel to slide back and forth in the frame be the easiest way of assuring good tension in the simplest way but it means the rear must be a hard tail to pull it off.

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It works if the bike has either a unified rear triangle frame (e.g. Ibis Szazbo, Klein Mantra) or a swingarm pivot that is coaxial with the bottom bracket.

Chalo, do you use any fluid on the spoke/nipple threads when you properly tension them? Something to help them resist coming loose?

The front fork shows the age of that bike, It's a masterpiece lot's of effort gone into that I bet, I forgot about the newer frame designs that would work with a belt, I still save my memory to floppy disk so it gets corrupted very easily my ram chips struggle to pull my name from deep memory.

I done my spokes dry ive always seen them dry so i followed suit, I dont have a proper tensioner so I squeezed them to get equal flex each side, it slightly differs side to side on my wheels not many have a 50/50 split so i used touchy feely and guess in itself, i then used the piano method and listen to their key and fine tuned them.
They are whack in the hands of a pro but they round and get me down the road im suprised I pulled it off really with wooden truing stand and faith alone.