Please recommend best battery pack builders in UK / Europe"

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BikeVirgin   10 mW

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Recommended battery for 3000w cyclone and 60a programmable controller

Post by BikeVirgin » Dec 07 2019 6:44pm

Hi. I've just ordered the Cyclone 3000w motor. I don't think I will ever run it that high as I probably won't be getting a 72v battery. I need some buying advice on which battery to buy. I will have a programmable controller so have the opportunity to adjust some of the settings. What would be the minimum battery required, or the best battery under 72v.

Thanks

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Re: Recommended battery for 3000w cyclone and 60a programmable controller

Post by john61ct » Dec 07 2019 7:20pm

Why would you not get the highest voltage?

Same Wh capacity shouldn't cost any more.

Even if you don't run it at high rpm my understanding is, it's more efficient even at torque, standing starts steep hills, runs cooler so probably longer life too.

Only issue is if that does make higher speeds possible, when you do take advantage of them your range will be shorter.

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Re: Recommended battery for 3000w cyclone and 60a programmable controller

Post by BikeVirgin » Dec 08 2019 2:43am

Thanks for the reply. I thought a 72v would be way too expensive. I currently have a 52v 17.5 ah 30amp battery. I assume this wouldn't be suitable. Do you have a link for a 72v battery that you would recommend. I live in UK.

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Re: Recommended battery for 3000w cyclone and 60a programmable controller

Post by john61ct » Dec 08 2019 3:09am

Get your max pack dimensions, do your research here and decide exactly what cells you want to use.

Mean time, put up a new thread with the title "Please reco best pack builders in UK / Europe" and in the OP spell out any other relevant details

Get the labor + rate, figure out with them how many paralleled 20S strings you can carry

Then have the cells drop-shipped to them

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Please recommend best battery pack builders in UK / Europe"

Post by BikeVirgin » Dec 08 2019 5:14am

I'm looking to purchase a good quality 72v battery pack to maximize the performance of the Cyclone 3000w motor and 60a programmable controller. Look forward to your comments.

Thanks

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Re: Recommended battery for 3000w cyclone and 60a programmable controller

Post by BikeVirgin » Dec 08 2019 5:16am

Thank you. I've put up another thread as you suggested.

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Recommended sellers of 72v triangle battery

Post by BikeVirgin » Dec 12 2019 4:19pm

Hi. Can anyone recommend a good supplier of 72v battery. There are so many on AliExpress, Dhgate etc I'm wondering if someone could send a link.

Thanks

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Re: Recommended sellers of 72v triangle battery

Post by john61ct » Dec 12 2019 5:46pm

Post another thread, give your location in the title and ask for recommended custom builders in your region.

Ideally you yourself know what cells you want to use, whether they are supplied by the pack maker, or you have them drop shipped.

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amberwolf   100 GW

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Re: Please recommend best battery pack builders in UK / Europe"

Post by amberwolf » Dec 12 2019 8:22pm

There is no need to keep making new threads.

Please stop recommending that.

Simply edit the title of the existing thread (by editing the first post), and place details as needed in the exisitng thread.

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Re: Recommended battery for 3000w cyclone and 60a programmable controller

Post by amberwolf » Dec 12 2019 8:24pm

BikeVirgin wrote:
Dec 08 2019 2:43am
I currently have a 52v 17.5 ah 30amp battery. I assume this wouldn't be suitable. D
Why do you think it is not suitable?

If it is becuase of the higher current limit of the controller than the battery, but the controller is programmable and you're never going to use that power anyway, just program the controller to match the battery.

Have you tested it yet? That would be my first recommendation. ;)

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Re: Please recommend best battery pack builders in UK / Europe"

Post by john61ct » Dec 13 2019 3:00am

But they are very much separate topics.

If ordering from China, it's a world-wide question.

If getting a DIY builder to create a custom pack, best addressed nearby.

But, whatever, you da man

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Re: Please recommend best battery pack builders in UK / Europe"

Post by amberwolf » Dec 13 2019 3:43am

Might seem like it, but if it's still the same battery pack for the same project being decided upon, it's better to have one thread to figure out exactly what needs to be built. ;)

Otherwise the OP has to keep several separate threads updated with all the information all the time, and answer questions in each of these threads.

If it's all in one place, it's much easier for everyone.

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Re: Recommended battery for 3000w cyclone and 60a programmable controller

Post by BikeVirgin » Dec 13 2019 1:15pm

amberwolf wrote:
Dec 12 2019 8:24pm
BikeVirgin wrote:
Dec 08 2019 2:43am
I currently have a 52v 17.5 ah 30amp battery. I assume this wouldn't be suitable. D
Why do you think it is not suitable?

If it is becuase of the higher current limit of the controller than the battery, but the controller is programmable and you're never going to use that power anyway, just program the controller to match the battery.

Have you tested it yet? That would be my first recommendation. ;)
I haven't tested. I don't have motor yet. I didn't think running the motor at a lower wattage it's rated for would be a good idea. 52 x 30 is 1560w am I right. I just want some advice on what battery I should buy and where to buy from. Can anyone help.

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Re: Recommended battery for 3000w cyclone and 60a programmable controller

Post by amberwolf » Dec 13 2019 10:41pm

BikeVirgin wrote:
Dec 13 2019 1:15pm

I didn't think running the motor at a lower wattage it's rated for would be a good idea.
I think you have at least one misunderstanding on how systems work. Almost always the motor will be running at much lower wattage than it's rating.

Only at peak demands (startup from a stop, hill climbing, etc) will it need most or all of it's power.

Running a motor at it's peak rated power all the time will heat it up a lot (potentially damaging it depending on the conditions it's used under, and whether or not the seller's "rating" is really it's continuous max or just a peak it can hit every so often), as well as use up your battery VERY quickly.

Please go to http://ebikes.ca/simulator, read the entire page to get an idea how things work, and then play with various configurations in the simulator to see how an ebike system will actually operate for you. It's designed for hubmotors, but you can emulate a middrive in it if you like. This will help you understand more about what you actually need for what you want / need the bike to do for you. (though it will take some time to figure out). You don't have to do this, but you'll get an understanding that will help you make the right choices for your particular needs.


Let's say you have a 72v 30Ah battery (which is very large and heavy for an ebike) to be used on this 3000w system, and say it's capable of the current needed to do that.. That means it has about 2160Wh (v x ah = wh). If you could continuously pull 3000w from the battery, say going up a really really really long hill or mountain, or going so fast that it would draw that much power to overcome air resistance, then the pack would only last 2160wh / 3000w = 0.72h, or less than 45 minutes. If you were going, say, 20mph, you would only get a little less than 15 miles that way.

Riding normally, however, 20mph would take only around 400-600w, call it 500w just in case, depending on terrain, wind, other conditions. So 2160wh / 500w = 4.32h, which is around 4 hours and 20 minutes. Meaning, you could go almost 90 miles on the same battery under those conditions.


52 x 30 is 1560w am I right.
Yes, that's about the average power the battery could manage to output (but if it's like most of the typical ebike batteries, if it's run at that power level all the time it'll get hot and have a short lifespan).
I just want some advice on what battery I should buy and where to buy from. Can anyone help.
<snip>
(from your first post in the thread: What would be the minimum battery required, or the best battery under 72v.
What battery you need depends on exactly what you're going to need it to do.

The "minimum battery required" is dependent on that, and on what the controller itself is capable of (though which controller and motor you get is dependent on what you want to do with it). It's quite likely that the battery you already have will "work" with the Cyclone system you are getting, if you reprogram the controller to not pull too many amps from the battery, and to have an LVC and HVC that correspond to the lower voltage battery's limits.

So first we need to know how you're going to use the bike, and how far you need to go on it, and under what conditions you'll be doing that.

Are you going to ride at 5mph, or at 100mph? Or?

Are you going to ride for one mile, or several dozen, or?

Are you going to ride only on flat perfect roads with no winds and no stops, always at the same speed? Or are you going to ride in traffic on typical roads with uphills and downhills etc., stop and go, etc? Or? Will there be winds? etc?


What is your battery budget?

How much space and weight carrying capacity do you have available on the bike?


If you don't want to answer, it's ok, but then to be safe we'd have recommend a huge capacity battery to be sure you have enough range, that's capable of much more than just 60A at 72v, so that you can be sure itt won't be damaged by long periods of high current. Probably be pretty expensive (and large and heavy and awkward to put on a bicycle frame).

I don't think you really need that, so the above info would help us help you figure out what you actually need.

It should also help us help you figure out if you really need the cyclone system (which is likely going to require at least a bit of DIY and/or part making or modifying, to get it to securely mount on your bike.

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Re: Please recommend best battery pack builders in UK / Europe"

Post by BikeVirgin » Dec 14 2019 4:31am

Many thanks for taking time to reply and help. Ok I'm currently riding 11miles each day. I was wanting to reach up to 30mph + It's mainly flat some slight climbs, Very little stopping. I didn't want to limit myself to such a short range. I would like to be able to get 22 miles + so I don't have to charge battery every evening. I'm about 19st. I think the controller is the yuyangking Bluetooth programmable. Not sure what can be changed in the settings as I haven't got the motor or controller yet. Being delivered next week. Not sure how fast or range I could achieve with current battery! As you mentioned I should and will try my current battery first. I know that Luna cycle recommend at least a 52v 20 ah battery with 40a continuous or more. That's why I thought I would need to change battery. ( That said the basic kit comes with a 35a controller) not 60a. I chose the 60a programmable so it could give me flexibility! I was concerned that if I didn't use the correct battery that I would damage it. So I would rather sell the one I have (if not suitable) for something more capable. Thanks again for your help. I will have a look at that simulator . :thumb:

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Re: Please recommend best battery pack builders in UK / Europe"

Post by SlowCo » Dec 14 2019 6:29am

EM3EV from China is owned and led by an Englishman. They have a very good reputation in building battery packs and apparently fuse all packs on cell level. They offer a 72V pack with a 80A continuous BMS that would allow you to extract all the power the Cyclone motor can handle: https://em3ev.com/shop/em3ev-72v-20s10p ... ah-29-5ah/ It is meant for scooters/mopeds I think so is big for a bicycle build.

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Re: Please recommend best battery pack builders in UK / Europe"

Post by amberwolf » Dec 14 2019 10:39pm

BikeVirgin wrote:
Dec 14 2019 4:31am
Ok I'm currently riding 11miles each day.
<snip>
I didn't want to limit myself to such a short range. I would like to be able to get 22 miles + so I don't have to charge battery every evening.
<snip>
I was wanting to reach up to 30mph +
Keep in mind you'll likely need better tires, wheels and brakes (and possibly suspension) for those speeds than common bicycles generally have, unless you have perfect roads. If they're like the roads around here, or worse, one good pothole or bigger chunk of road debris could end your ride in a hurry. No idea what you've already got for a bike, or how experienced you are at those kinds of speeds on a bicycle, but it's a lot different at those speeds vs typical pedal speeds--even 20MPH is a significantly different (easier) ride than just 30.

That said, assuming your gearing is correct from the cyclone to the wheel, then assuming that speed is on the flats only, no wind, with a typical upright position on a typical mountain bike, and assuming no contribution from pedalling at that speed, it'll take around 1000w at the motor to maintain 30MPH. The battery will have to supply around 1200W, depending on efficiency of the system, to get that 1000w. (so there's at least 200w of heat lost between battery, controller, motor). Simulation using default hubmotor and controller, 72v 23Ah battery out of the list:
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h ... throt=62.8
Estimated wh/mile is 41.

To go 35mph, same sitaution otherwise, it'll take around 1500w at the motor, and 2000w at the battery. Simulation same as above but for the faster speed it required a bigger controller, so it uses the 40A:
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h ... 6&cont=C40
Estimated wh/mile is 53.8.

So for 30mph, assuming continous at that speed on flat / no wind, for all 11 miles, would take at least 11 * 41 = 451wh of battery. double the range would take double the wh, so just round it up to 1000wh (1kwh). If it's a 72v system, then that's 1000 / 72 = 13.89, round that up to 14Ah. So a 72v 14Ah battery to do that.

If it's a 52v system, then 1000 / 52 = 19.2Ah. So your existing battery would *almost* do that, range-wise. Whether it would handle the power demands depends on how well it's built, etc.

It's mainly flat some slight climbs, Very little stopping.
That should save you some battery capacity, and some heat buildup in the system. It also means you don't need much of a system to do what you want. The Cyclone would be overkill, if it's actually capable of 3000w continuous (but overkill is good because it means it doesn't have to work nearly as hard as otherwise to do it's job).


So far, a common hubmotor system, like the 1500w Leaf kit (see Neptronix' big thread), would do what you're after, as long as the controller can put out the power needed, and the battery is high enough voltage (52v is probably not enough, probably need 72v for 30MPH+. The cyclone and ohter middrives can be geared to give whatever speed out of whatever voltage, more or less, but a hubmotor in a wheel doesn't really have that option).



(below edited; had wrong value for a stone)
I'm about 19st.
19 x 14lbs is about 266lbs. Add another say 40-60lbs of bike, motor, battery, and you're well over 300lbs.

I think you're going to want good suspension, wheels, tires, and brakes to be going 30mph--better than I was imagining when I started replying above.

My CrazyBike2 plus me (at something under 200lbs) is around 400lbs, and 20MPH is about as fast as I would want to take it on roads here, with the basic front suspension and no rear suspension it has. I've had it up to over 30MPH on a kart race track, which is very smooth, and it works fine there (other than losing traction in turns, wrong tire choice). But on regular roads, all the bumps, waves, holes, debris, etc., bounces the bike all over teh place, and could make it difficult to handle at anything much over 20.

My SB Cruiser trike is another hundred pounds heavier, and it still bounces around on the roads even at 20MPH.
I think the controller is the yuyangking Bluetooth programmable. Not sure what can be changed in the settings as I haven't got the motor or controller yet.
You should ask the seller, because they should have documentation for all of that on their website, and should be able to answer direct questions from you about such things. If they don't or can't or won't, it's going to be difficult for you to do much of anything with the system, other than whatever it came preprogrammed for.

Not sure how fast or range I could achieve with current battery!

Speed depends on the gearing you choose for the cyclone's output to your bike's drivetrain input, and the gearing from there to the rear wheel, as well as the rear wheel size.

So if it's not fast enough you can change the gearing to fix that, but at the cost of startup torque at lower speeds.

Range depends on actual battery capacity at the high current draw, and the actual speeds you go, terrain, wind, etc., but assuming the previous math is close to reality, you could get 15-20 miles out of it at the 30mph-ish speed, more if you go slower.

I know that Luna cycle recommend at least a 52v 20 ah battery with 40a continuous or more. That's why I thought I would need to change battery. ( That said the basic kit comes with a 35a controller) not 60a. I chose the 60a programmable so it could give me flexibility!
Depends on what that controller is actually settable to. It should be able to limit down to next to no current, in theory, so it ought to be settable to match whatever battery you've got (untl you get a better one if you end up needing to).

It also depends on what voltage the controller is capable of; some of them have a hardwired minimum voltage (LVC) so if yours is higher than what your battery's range of voltage is, it either won't work with it or it won't be able to use all of the battery's capacity (the contorller will shutdown when the battery drops below that LVC).

I was concerned that if I didn't use the correct battery that I would damage it.
If you pull more current from it than it can actually handle, then yes, damage can occur. If it's protected against overcurrent, it'll shutdown and the motor will stop, so no damage will occur.

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Re: Please recommend best battery pack builders in UK / Europe"

Post by BikeVirgin » Dec 15 2019 5:44am

Many thanks again for your fantastic detailed reply. I've got some instructions on the controller. I can set the Battery current limit to 50-100% so 50% would be 30amps. There is also a setting for phase current limit! This also is between 50-100% what should I set that at? There is also a low voltage cutoff. I assume that for 52v battery this would be about 45v! The other setting I'm not sure about is Hall sensor phase angle(degree) 120 or 60 (phase can't be matched if wrong angle is chosen)! Do you have any recommendations on a good quality chain and 8 speed freewheel.

Kind regards

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Re: Please recommend best battery pack builders in UK / Europe"

Post by amberwolf » Dec 15 2019 10:11pm

BikeVirgin wrote:
Dec 15 2019 5:44am
There is also a setting for phase current limit! This also is between 50-100% what should I set that at?
That depends on your motor. The lower the phase current, the lower the torque. If it has a default setting for the motor it comes with, that should be safe. Otherwise, you should probably ask the seller what it should be set at. If they don't know, you might find info in the big Cyclone 3000w / 3k threads, I ahven't looked so dunno.

There is also a low voltage cutoff. I assume that for 52v battery this would be about 45v!
Depends on how you want to treat the battery.

Normally you set the LVC of a controller much higher than you would for teh BMS. The BMS is intended as a last-ditch don't-destroy-the-battery protection level. The controller LVC is the everyday "battery empty" shutdown.

So I'd usually recommend 3.1-3.2v per cell, or higher, for a controller LVC. A 52v battery is 14s, so 14 x 3.2v is 44.8v, so 45v is close enough. (the battery LVC is probably 2.8v/cell, or 39.2v, or thereabouts).



The other setting I'm not sure about is Hall sensor phase angle(degree) 120 or 60 (phase can't be matched if wrong angle is chosen)!
That dpeends on the motor, so the seller would be the best person to answer that; if they can't then the Cyclone threads for that system are the next best source of info. But it's probably 120 (almost every motor I've ever had is 120).
Do you have any recommendations on a good quality chain and 8 speed freewheel.
What drivetrain system is on the bike you have? You still have made no mention of the bike you're going to use. If it's not already 8-speed, you'll want to change out the shifter and derailer as well. If the wheel is for a cassette type, you won't want to get a freewheel, but rather a cassette of the right number of sprockets, with the right spline for your wheel's hub. If the wheel's hub is threaded, *then* you need a freewheel. ;)

BTW: what happened to the original rear wheel that had the original freewheel on it? Is it missing, or just too worn out to use?

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Re: Please recommend best battery pack builders in UK / Europe"

Post by BikeVirgin » Dec 21 2019 6:00am

Sorry it's taken so long to reply. I was going to use a cheap mountain bike. GT aggressor. It has a 3 x 8 freewheel. The kit came but I had a issue with the spindle. I fitted it but wasn't happy with the spacing so took it out. Unfortunately I don't know how but I knackered the thread. It would no longer go into bottom bracket. The original spindle goes in. Anyway I have ordered a replacement. I'm probably going to wait for the sales and get a decent mountain bike with disc brakes. The reason I asked about a good quality freewheel or cassette is because I'm aware that they will need replacing more often. I connected the 52v battery and spun the motor up. The app said 31mph, not sure how accurate that would be as it hasn't been calibrated and there was no chain connected or load.

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