Fatal ebike crash trial

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Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by Miles » Feb 26 2020 5:00pm


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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by DAND214 » Feb 26 2020 5:57pm

Is this the first one heard of?

Dan

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by John in CR » Feb 26 2020 7:45pm

DAND214 wrote:
Feb 26 2020 5:57pm
Is this the first one heard of?
Dan
With 10's of millions of electric 2 wheelers in China there's no way it's the first or even the 10th, but if they were using an illegal ebike there might be significant punishment even if the pedestrian didn't contribute with some negligence. On youtube I've seen a number of pretty ugly accidents in China involving ebikes and escooters.

I hope that wasn't a forum member, traveling 10mph over the speed limit in a crowded city setting and then leaving the scene of an accident. He deserves some punishment. Does England have the legal concept of contributory negligence, where a percentage of the fault can be assigned to the respective parties, or is it all or nothing?

Pedestrians do some really stupid things, so I try to ride with extreme care while around them. The only time I've come pretty close to hitting one was a homeless person crossing while cars were stopped at a stoplight, between cars instead of at the crosswalk. I was traveling well under the legal speed limit of 25kph for that situation of me splitting traffic, which is completely legal here. When he popped out of obscurity from behind the bus or truck he was crossing in front of I had no time to stop, and only his seeing me and pulling up short prevented me from hitting him pretty hard. Hopefully he learned that vehicles can be silent, because I learned to take more care and go even slower while looking harder for evidence that something is about to pop out from being unseen (a moving shadow on the street or looking that direction while passing that blind corner for something moving faster, whether it's a runner, a bike, a moto, etc)

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by Hillhater » Feb 26 2020 9:14pm

Whilst it could just as easily have been a non electric bike, this guy was obviously riding wrecklessly without allowing for the circumstances.
He deserves to be prosecuted, but might have helped his situation if he had stayed at the scene and helped.
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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by Miles » Feb 27 2020 4:35am

John in CR wrote:
Feb 26 2020 7:45pm
Does England have the legal concept of contributory negligence, where a percentage of the fault can be assigned to the respective parties, or is it all or nothing?
Yes, it does. Some aspects of its use have been quite contraversial.... See: http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.com/2014 ... mason.html

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by john61ct » Feb 27 2020 8:46am

Wasn't quite wrecklessly, but I do like that as a pun. . .

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by dogman dan » Feb 28 2020 7:30am

I'll never forget the guy I hit at 27 mph. My headlight was definitely not bright enough to ride that speed. So that part my fault.
but that knuckehead walking in the bike lane of the street, he was wearing black everything. He's so lucky it wasn't a car that hit him. I dodged him in the last second just enough for both of us to come out unhurt.

Riding in a city these days, you just gotta expect a person on a phone to blunder in front of you. The other day in a parking lot, where Its my part to stop anyway, but mom never even looked up from her phone as she drug the child across my bumper.

Self driving cars? we need self driving phones right now!

But even if pedestrians are committing suicide in your path, if shit happens its definitely not the time to be riding on an uninsured, unregistered illegal home made motorcycle with pedals on it. This consideration was a major part of why I started to commute and pleasure ride on my e bikes much slower than 30 mph, particularly at night after hitting that guy. For fast riding, I bought a gas scooter that carries full insurance, and keeps up in the car lanes on any road.

It really is a big deal, that people who do look never think that bicycle is doing 30 mph, let alone 40 mph club bikes. I do believe that lady never looked, or if she did, she saw bicycle way out there, and thought 15 mph and plenty of time.

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by 2old » Feb 28 2020 10:55am

Pretty much why I rarely ride on the street, mostly for my own protection from the crazies in cars, but also since my bike(s) are more powerful than they're supposed to be. It'll be a motorcycle if I ever get the urge to go fast on road again.

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by amberwolf » Feb 29 2020 1:21am

dogman dan wrote:
Feb 28 2020 7:30am
but that knuckehead walking in the bike lane of the street, he was wearing black everything. He's so lucky it wasn't a car that hit him.
fwiw, there's someone in the metro area that i see from time to time, riding a slow powerchair (with no lights or reflectors) wandering around the roads, sometimes in the right direction, sometimes not, sometimes just wandering back and forth from lane to lane. usually its on metro parkway, the big oval main road around metrocenter, usually late at night, when there's just enough traffic to be a serious hazard, and when that traffic is generally people going home from work, tired from a long day, and not generally paying as much attention as they might otherwise. it's not all that well lit in some places....

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by Ohbse » Feb 29 2020 11:06pm

John in CR wrote:
Feb 26 2020 7:45pm

I hope that wasn't a forum member, traveling 10mph over the speed limit in a crowded city setting and then leaving the scene of an accident. He deserves some punishment. Does England have the legal concept of contributory negligence, where a percentage of the fault can be assigned to the respective parties, or is it all or nothing?

Pedestrians do some really stupid things, so I try to ride with extreme care while around them. The only time I've come pretty close to hitting one was a homeless person crossing while cars were stopped at a stoplight, between cars instead of at the crosswalk. I was traveling well under the legal speed limit of 25kph for that situation of me splitting traffic, which is completely legal here. When he popped out of obscurity from behind the bus or truck he was crossing in front of I had no time to stop, and only his seeing me and pulling up short prevented me from hitting him pretty hard. Hopefully he learned that vehicles can be silent, because I learned to take more care and go even slower while looking harder for evidence that something is about to pop out from being unseen (a moving shadow on the street or looking that direction while passing that blind corner for something moving faster, whether it's a runner, a bike, a moto, etc)
For some additional context, I've read he didn't leave the scene of the accident in the sense that he was running from responsibility - he left because after 10 minutes or so the mood of the crowd was beginning to become agressive. He immediately went to police of his own volition. Perhaps in hindsight leaving was a bad idea. He was definitely going too quick for those circumstances and deserves some element of blame - however the footage shows this woman running directly out in front of him. The consequences would have been less severe if speeds were lower, but regardless of delta v if you step directly into the path of moving objects, they will hit you. I don't think the deceased here is entirely blameless either.

Like you I've had a couple of startling incidents with pedestrians being in completely unexpected places, doing stupid things. I'm pretty cautious in any locations I've observed people previously and usually keep my speed differential to traffic at a reasonable number to deal with the unexpected. Closest call resulted in me doing a big stoppie and JUST avoiding a guy running across four lanes of stopped traffic on a main road. Scared the poop out of both of us.

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by dogman dan » Mar 02 2020 8:10am

Yes,, people more and more will step out in front of you. We need self driving phones. That could just as easily have happened to somebody driving a legal scooter.

The rub is he's riding the illegal bike. Something to think about if you ride an illegal bike in a typical US city, or in Europe.

I just went to something insured for hauling ass, but the real reason I did that is it hauls ass better. But in town, I ride slow enough to do something at intersections, if I must. Once in a car two ladies stepped right into my path jaywalking, and never looked my way at all. They were just focused on yakking at each other. No big deal, since they were pushing babies in carriages. I was way ready for them. You gotta always be way ready for it. Lights, and rights of way mean nothing. No matter who is at fault, you just can't go running down a couple infants.

Locally, pedestrian deaths are way up in El Paso, typically happening in the night. The local uniform again, all black, so often they never see them walk in front of them. Lots of them this year, way exceeding the usual suicide by motorcycle numbers. On those, they should list cause of death, 70 degree weekend. They have a beer, and after the game, hop on the Harley and drive into a curb no helmet.

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by spinningmagnets » Mar 02 2020 8:36am

I was a professional driver for a while, so in spite of my own caution, I drove in constant fear of pedestrians and other cars. From my higher seat, I could see people texting while driving with the phone in their lap (even some police!).

An officer once told me, be super careful around school buses, because even if you have the right of way and the bus driver makes a mistake, you dont want to be standing in front of an elected judge explaining how the wreck was not your fault. He may feel that he has to "do something, to send a message"

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by torker » Mar 02 2020 9:20am

Dan mentioned phones. They should put an a sensor so if the phone detects "any" movement the screen goes blank. You need directions, pull over.
Dave When I die I want to slide in sideways yelling WooHoo what a ride !

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by docw009 » Mar 02 2020 12:35pm

Prosecutor states "the bike was capable of going 2X the legal limit of 15.5 mph." OK, how fast was he really going? There is live video of the crash, so that will come out. Was he going 44 feet per second (30 mph) or 22 feet per second (15 mph). It's on the video.

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by Miles » Mar 02 2020 1:29pm


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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by Punx0r » Mar 02 2020 5:07pm

Interesting he was cleared of riding without a licence as he seemed to be bang to rights on that one, irrespective of the impact.

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by Miles » Mar 02 2020 5:51pm

Punx0r wrote:
Mar 02 2020 5:07pm
Interesting he was cleared of riding without a licence as he seemed to be bang to rights on that one, irrespective of the impact.
Yes, I found that surprising too...

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by Hillhater » Mar 02 2020 11:59pm

torker wrote:
Mar 02 2020 9:20am
Dan mentioned phones. They should put an a sensor so if the phone detects "any" movement the screen goes blank. You need directions, pull over.
And what about when you want to use it on a train or a bus ?
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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by markz » Mar 03 2020 12:08am

Hillhater wrote:
Mar 02 2020 11:59pm
torker wrote:
Mar 02 2020 9:20am
Dan mentioned phones. They should put an a sensor so if the phone detects "any" movement the screen goes blank. You need directions, pull over.
And what about when you want to use it on a train or a bus ?
Or passenger seat of a vehicle.

While we are on the topic, why not have movie theaters automatically turn off the cell phone when they enter the theater.

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by markz » Mar 03 2020 12:10am

Punx0r wrote:
Mar 02 2020 5:07pm
Interesting he was cleared of riding without a licence as he seemed to be bang to rights on that one, irrespective of the impact.
Good lawyer$ are good for a rea$on.


I wonder how UK law works in relation to a civil suit. Can the victims family now sue the ebiker with lower standards of law for conviction/judgement. Tangent: Thats how OJ got nailed for $33M from the civil judge, when the criminal DA wanted 33 yrs. Coincidence no. UK is odd in other ways, like I was watching Youtube tv shows on debt collectors of UK, and they can literally come into your house and take your stuff (TV, PC, your vehicle(s), your toys).

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by Punx0r » Mar 03 2020 3:52am

Yes, they can. A civil suits only needs to prove liability on the balance of probability (i.e. what is most likely) rather than beyond all reasonable doubt, as in a criminal case. The higher standard of proof in a criminal case reflects that the accused's freedom is at risk, not just their money.

You might be surprised how many of your laws mirror the old English common law. In times gone by it was seen as good template for a fledgling country, especially where it was formerly a colony which would have been operating before on the same laws. Of course, when you're writing your own legal code you can pick and chose what bits you want to keep or adopt and there's always subsequent alterations down the years.

OT but I don't think the rules of debt collecting are that different. Private debt collectors have absolutely no powers to enter your home or remove anything without your consent. Court-appointed bailiffs are more serious and collect unpaid criminal fines or taxes but even then, in very few instances are they allowed to use force to enter (and I believe will call the police the supervise as a precaution). Even then, visits must be pre-arranged and there are rules on what can and cannot be taken. The standard advice is not to let any collector of bailiff enter. There is a weird "vampire" style rule whereby if you voluntarily let a bailiff in once they are theoretically allowed to force enter on a subsequent visit. It's worth noting that pushing open an unlocked or ajar door counts as using force. Advice here if anyone needs it (it's worth knowing if you're in this kind of situation): https://www.stepchange.org/debt-info/de ... ences.aspx

TV is invariably all drama'ed up. If someone consents (without duress) to anyone coming into their home and taking things in lieu of money owed then that is up to them.

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by markz » Mar 03 2020 10:22pm

https://calgarysun.com/news/local-news/ ... 540f54209a
Cyclist who ran a red and hit and killed a 75yr old pedestrian gets a $1000 fine plus a victim surcharge of $150.

I wonder what would have been the consequences if it was an electric bicycle above the 750W legislation limit.

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by Punx0r » Mar 04 2020 3:30am

I imagine the difference would have been large: causing death by dangerously driving something defined as a motor vehicle is a well-defined offence that carries relatively stiff penalties, whereas there is often by such specific offence for bicycles and "dangerous cycling" penalties are relatively minor.

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by markz » Mar 05 2020 12:41am

Punx0r wrote:
Mar 04 2020 3:30am
I imagine the difference would have been large: causing death by dangerously driving something defined as a motor vehicle is a well-defined offence that carries relatively stiff penalties, whereas there is often by such specific offence for bicycles and "dangerous cycling" penalties are relatively minor.
Well, at that time there were Lime ebikes available, but now they have taken them off the market for good and only focusing on the little stand up scooters. I never really paid attention to how fast they went, but the scooters zooming by a me standing/walking seemed fast. Raised a ruckus on the news when they first came out. Type of fall accounts for a big aspect of when someone dies, as hitting the head isnt good for life.

I haven't followed anything in regards to what the law states. With my run-ins with the Fuzz, like riding on sidewalks, another time I ran a red one time on a bicycle and got a rolling by warning, cop stopped me once just to puff out his chest saying get off a road I was rightfully on, fucker gave me less then one foot and still stopped me...goof.
If I am not mistaken even a sweat powered bicycle is a "vehicle" as they have to stop at stop signs, red lights obey traffic signs. Terminology of "Motor Vehicle" vs "Vehicle" yeah, I'm no lawyer, and legal jargon I dont know.
In the eyes of a Judge and Jury, big differences.

The news story I cited, buddy was charged under the motor vehicle act.

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Re: Fatal ebike crash trial

Post by Punx0r » Mar 05 2020 3:16am

The punishments for cycles are usually lower than for motorised vehicles: the drink drive limit doesn't apply, you just have to not be shitfaced, running red lights, going wrong way down a one-way street, cycling on the pavement(sidewalk) carry a fixed fine of £50.

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