Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

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Re: B.C. Supreme Court decision

Post by markz » May 12 2020 5:35pm

Justice Robert W. Jenkins said the Motorino is not a motor-assisted cycle because the pedals don't propel the engine and the vehicle can operate without them.
Specifically, Miloshev thinks the judge misinterpreted the section of the motor-assisted cycle regulation that says the engine must stop if the operator stops pedaling, releases the accelerator, or applies a brake.
The defendant in the case testified that he had never used the pedals on his e-bike, so he didn't know if the engine would disengage when he stopped pedaling. But Miloshev says that shouldn't matter, because the bike fits the other criteria for the motor to stop.

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Re: B.C. Supreme Court decision

Post by amberwolf » May 12 2020 6:30pm

Why not use the existing thread?
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=105988

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by Balmorhea » May 12 2020 7:17pm

goatman wrote:
May 04 2020 6:52pm
I was going to use a shotgun shell belt riveted to a spine protector with a bunch of 26650's as a "backpack" battery but didn't feel like getting shot for being a suicide bomber on an ebike
Cover it with a Hello Kitty backpack.

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Re: B.C. Supreme Court decision

Post by markz » May 12 2020 7:47pm

T'was suppose to be in that thread, just had too many windows open.

Merge it would be nice, mods.

Sorry bruhs

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by Lessss » May 12 2020 9:39pm

In N.B. if the wheels are under 10 inches they aren't allowed on the road period

> 46(1) No person shall drive a motor-driven cycle on a highway unless
>
> (a) it weighs fifty-five kilograms or less, and a) dont le poids est de cinquante-cinq kilogrammes et moins; et
> (b) it is equipped with b) qui sont munis
> (i) wheels having wheel rims twenty-five centimetres or more in diameter;
> M-17 Motor Vehicle Act 83-42

Most of Motorino and Daymak stock LOOK like motorcycles with really beefy brakes and rims. We aren't talking the ones that simply look like a scooter but are still ebikes, these straight up look like motorcycles, because they are, they've just been speed reduced. The motor wattages are probably off the scale as well because no 500W motor is THAT THICK.

Apparently dude also had his pedals removed.

So looks like a motorcycle, had pedals removed, and may have failed the attitude test.
Give me nuclear batteries I say!!

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by Balmorhea » May 12 2020 10:01pm

The defendant isn’t someone, and the bike isn’t something, that we should be allied with. They’re both exploiting a privilege that isn’t for them, and we all stand to lose our privileges to ride e-bikes as bicycles rather than mopeds due to this kind of dumb, clearly abusive nonsense.
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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by donn » May 12 2020 11:21pm

amberwolf wrote:
May 02 2020 11:06pm
HK12K wrote:
May 02 2020 10:17am
The motor must be capable of being propelled by muscular power using the pedals,
Interesting, and very strange choice of words (the highlighted ones).
... and not to be found in "MOTOR ASSISTED CYCLE REGULATION" http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/ ... g/151_2002, which does have the bulk of the preceding text. My guess is, it's been superseded, but whatever, it's clearly nonsense that wasn't intended as read.

What I thought was interesting was the sub 3 km/hr interlock. What a nightmare for electric bicycle manufacturers, to sort out these weird requirements. But look at the odd use of "or" in that passage:
(1) A motor assisted cycle must be equipped with a mechanism, separate from the accelerator controller, that
  • (a) allows the driver to turn the motors on and off from a normal seated position while operating the motor assisted cycle, or
  • (b) prevents the motors from turning on or engaging before the motor assisted cycle attains a speed of 3 km/hr.
I am puzzled by the choice between these two to me unrelated controls, but as I guess most makes satisfy (a), they can forget about (b).

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by John in CR » May 13 2020 5:57am

FWIW the rims for 10" scooter tires are greater than 25cm in diameter. It's stupid to go by rim size anyway due to the vast differences is tires. These kinds of detailed rules is what prompted my earlier comment that we should allow prejudiced cyclists to craft regulations for electrics. This "If it looks like a motorcycle, then it's a motorcycle" is little different than racism. What something looks like is irrelevant to any determination as to whether something meets the rules, period.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by HK12K » May 13 2020 8:10am

donn wrote:
May 12 2020 11:21pm
amberwolf wrote:
May 02 2020 11:06pm
HK12K wrote:
May 02 2020 10:17am
The motor must be capable of being propelled by muscular power using the pedals,
Interesting, and very strange choice of words (the highlighted ones).
... and not to be found in "MOTOR ASSISTED CYCLE REGULATION" http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/ ... g/151_2002, which does have the bulk of the preceding text. My guess is, it's been superseded, but whatever, it's clearly nonsense that wasn't intended as read.

What I thought was interesting was the sub 3 km/hr interlock. What a nightmare for electric bicycle manufacturers, to sort out these weird requirements. But look at the odd use of "or" in that passage:
(1) A motor assisted cycle must be equipped with a mechanism, separate from the accelerator controller, that
  • (a) allows the driver to turn the motors on and off from a normal seated position while operating the motor assisted cycle, or
  • (b) prevents the motors from turning on or engaging before the motor assisted cycle attains a speed of 3 km/hr.
I am puzzled by the choice between these two to me unrelated controls, but as I guess most makes satisfy (a), they can forget about (b).
The first time I read it I was like "oh, we're boned" but then I re-read it and realized it's not an "all of the above" scenario, it either/or.

Pas: must not start until 3kmh (less than one pedal rotation, 3 comes quickly) and must stop when you stop pedaling.

Or for throttle based systems: Must stop when released and have either an ebrake, ignition, kill switch, etc.

The real problem is that the people enforcing the law apparently cannot read or comprehend it and will happily twist it's interpretation to fit their prohibitionist agenda.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by Lessss » May 13 2020 8:13am

allows the driver to turn the motors on and off from a normal seated position while operating the motor assisted cycle, or
Brake lever cut off, but frankly the key switch and the throttle itself would satisfy this.


I agree technical specs are what the law needs to be based no not looks, but frankly, the pedals were removed, which shows all the intent in the world and it being motorcycle grade manufacture (looks) just makes it worse for everyone else.
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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by HK12K » May 13 2020 8:26am

John in CR wrote:
May 13 2020 5:57am
FWIW the rims for 10" scooter tires are greater than 25cm in diameter. It's stupid to go by rim size anyway due to the vast differences is tires. These kinds of detailed rules is what prompted my earlier comment that we should allow prejudiced cyclists to craft regulations for electrics. This "If it looks like a motorcycle, then it's a motorcycle" is little different than racism. What something looks like is irrelevant to any determination as to whether something meets the rules, period.
The general population is incredibly asinine and they prove it continually. Despite the fact these lead sled xmr's are legitimately slower than even a fat guy on a non-electric, people don't care. It looks like a motorcycle so it's a motorcycle and you should have to pay lots of money to use the roads just like they do, or be stuck on the same shit-smelling bus as they are. They're ignorant haters and they're doing their best to make everyone as miserable as they must be.

Then they cry about the whales and the turtles and the environment and social distancing, completely ignoring the benefits of personal electric conveyance. Because they're too cheap or stupid to join us, I suspect.

A frightening number of people are screaming to require license and insurance for pedal bikes as well. They're worried their suv might get scratched as they plow over that guy on the 10 speed and they might have to pay a little more.

Hopefully I'll stroke out soon and get away from these idiots forever.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by HK12K » May 13 2020 8:27am

Lessss wrote:
May 13 2020 8:13am
allows the driver to turn the motors on and off from a normal seated position while operating the motor assisted cycle, or
Brake lever cut off, but frankly the key switch and the throttle itself would satisfy this.


I agree technical specs are what the law needs to be based no not looks, but frankly, the pedals were removed, which shows all the intent in the world and it being motorcycle grade manufacture (looks) just makes it worse for everyone else.
Yeah, ebrake or ignition should cover it. Law states it must be independent from throttle, but it's got to stop when released too iirc.

This guy in Surrey had his pedals on, he just admitted to never using them. It was another guy on the island last year who had his removed, and ultimately skated.

Just because it looks like a motorcycle doesn't necessarily mean it should be illegal.
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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by donn » May 13 2020 10:07am

HK12K wrote:
May 13 2020 8:10am
Pas: must not start until 3kmh (less than one pedal rotation, 3 comes quickly) and must stop when you stop pedaling.
Is that how all PAS works? I've never used PAS, but that sounds like a "cadence" based system. I would be very disappointed if a system with a torque sensor worked like that. For me, the "or" conjunction gets manufacturers off the hook because whether they have PAS or not, they can provide something that will serve as on/off switch.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by HK12K » May 13 2020 10:19am

Not suggesting that's necessarily how pas works, just that I hit 3kmh on the first downstroke so you're probably already going at least that speed by the time pas kicks in. (Never had a pas bike either, so just my assumption, but torque based didn't exist when the law was written afaik)

I assume the rationale behind that part of the law is to ensure that the bike doesn't take off just because someone moves the pedal slightly. Not because they care whether you're sweating or not.

For throttles, they have to stop when released, so letting go would stop any unintended acceleration and thus mitigate any risk of a runaway bike.
Last edited by HK12K on May 13 2020 12:24pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by goatman » May 13 2020 10:55am

hk12k, I damn near bought that Harley for my boys when I saw it on craigslist a couple months ago but the ex had said no to the O.C. Chopper so I didn't. NO HARLEY E-BIKES!!! funny that you posted it

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by HK12K » May 13 2020 11:34am

Can't lie, I'm half tempted tempted to stuff it with Lipos and go trolling bikers. Of course it would probably fold on the first pothole and kill me, so maybe not.

Ex-Wife might have a point I guess. Next thing you know they're grown up and full patch members of something or other all because you just haaaaaaad to buy that Harley bicycle. :lol:

I had a 3 panel painting of NYC on the wall in my kids bedroom. Wife pulled them down and stuffed them in the closet and hasn't replaced them with anything. Just bare wall and the remaining picture hangers. She's afraid he'll grow up and want to move to NY.

Wives are funny like that. :wink:

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by amberwolf » May 13 2020 1:51pm

donn wrote:
May 13 2020 10:07am
HK12K wrote:
May 13 2020 8:10am
Pas: must not start until 3kmh (less than one pedal rotation, 3 comes quickly) and must stop when you stop pedaling.
Is that how all PAS works? I've never used PAS, but that sounds like a "cadence" based system. I would be very disappointed if a system with a torque sensor worked like that. For me, the "or" conjunction gets manufacturers off the hook because whether they have PAS or not, they can provide something that will serve as on/off switch.
It all depends on the system. There's a lot of posts and threads discussing various PAS systems, if you poke around, to see details on specific systems.

For instance, some of them simply require that the cadence sensor reports a minimum RPM. You can achieve that with more magnets or different gearing, etc.

But if the local legal requirement is that it work that way, then it has to work that way or it's not legal to use. :( So there are a lot of systems that are crippled in this or similar ways, simply so they comply with laws (but there's no physical reason they have to do that).


For my CA v3-controlled PAS, I have it setup so that on my lower gears it only takes a 1/4 rotation of the cranks to engage and start powering the system. But at that gearing, the torque sensor is fairly useless once it actually *is* started, so I just use pure-cadence control of the system. What I would prefer is that the CA allowed pure torque to startup, and control via pure torque or torque/cadence after that, and I wouldn't need such super low gearing to get started. But it doesn't, so this is how it works for me, until I build electronics to get around this, someday (maybe).


For the on/off PAS systems like my Fusin kit, and a few others I've tried out while helping others with their bikes, it just kicks on once you've reached a certain cadence (in a couple cases a certain speed, one of them not until almost 5mph, so at really low speed, and trying to startup from a stop with a heavy load, etc., you don't get any help at all, which makes them useless for me). When they do kick on, you get the full power of whatever PAS level you've picked, which may be more than you want for the speed you want to go, so you stop pedalling, and then a couple seconds later it gets around to stopping assistance, then you drop in speed enough and start pedalling, and then a couple seconds later it gets around to starting assistance, and you go thru this vrooom-putt-putt-vrooom cycle over and over. For those systems, disabling the PAS (where possible) and just using a throttle is the only simple way to get good control over them.

For proportional-PAS-cadence systems, like the CAv3 system I'm using now, control is usually pretty good, though they may also have a lower limit to where assist will start, which you may be able to work around, or you may not.


Some systems may even go by pure torque, but I don't know which (if any) those might be, other than perhaps BionX (sensor inside the motor/axle), which is extinct. Maybe Stromer (sensor in the rear dropout).


So...you'd have to look at the specific system you want to use and see how it's PAS behaves, according to people that use it. If no one has reported details like that, then you might want to just skip it and go to one that does have such details available (because the sellers / manufacturers probably won't be able to tell you the actual operation mode, based on what I've seen when I've looked for this info in the past).

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by amberwolf » May 13 2020 2:06pm

HK12K wrote:
May 13 2020 10:19am

For throttles, they have to stop when released, so letting go would stop any unintended acceleration and thus mitigate any risk of a runaway bike.
Except in the case of a broken ground in the throttle line, which then gives (usually) full throttle. Or similar failures like rain getting into the wiring and allowing voltage to pass from 5v to signal line, magnets or sensor physically breaking loose and changing the sensor results, etc. None of those are uncommon failure modes.

There are easy ways to prevent this but ebike controllers aren't designed this way, though a number of large-EV controller are, using two throttle inputs from a single throttle mechanism, one going from 0-5v (or whatever range) and the other simultaneously going from 5v to 0V (or whatever range). If they don't track opposite to each other, then the system shuts down, assuming a throttle failure, to prevent undesired operation.

You could actually build this into an ebike controller, too, wiht a PCB mounted to the controller PCB that takes two inputs and compares them with op-amps, and if the result isn't "zero" it disables the controller (via ebrake, keyswitch/ignition, etc). This would require building a throttle that does this, for instance by using a cable-operated throttle grip/etc that pulls a cable on an existing potbox or similar, that is designed to do this kind of output. A DIY version is to take two throttles and put them inside a tube over thier grips or other rotating portion, one of them physically flipped over from the other so it is rotated opposite, and the cable pulling the tube in rotation, against a tube going thru the center of the throttles as if it were a handlebar, that is moutned to the box this assembly is in. Or use two cable-operated-throttle assemblies face-to-face and bolted together, so the cable pulls them opposite each other, etc. Plenty of ways to do it.



But short of that, an ebrake lever is the simplest way to disable the motor in an "emergency"; you're already trained to engage the brake lever to stop yourself, if you're used to riding a bike, so it doesn't require any thought and reaction time is much faster than any other method. ;)

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by HK12K » May 13 2020 2:23pm

I'm not arguing against ebrakes, just speculating as to why they imposed the 3kmh requirement before the motor kicks in. I suspect they conceived of and wanted to prevent a situation where the motor kicked on due to an inadvertent minor pedal rotation, perhaps without a rider aboard, resulting in injury. All of the ignitions and ebrakes in the world won't help if no one is sitting on it.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by john61ct » May 13 2020 2:27pm

Forces the vehicle to be capable of being only-human powered

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by HK12K » May 13 2020 2:37pm

john61ct wrote:
May 13 2020 2:27pm
Forces the vehicle to be capable of being only-human powered
The law already states that it must have pedals that are capable of propelling the vehicle.
Cycles without attached pedals
Gas-powered cycles and electric cycles without attached pedals do not qualify as an electric motor-assisted cycle and will not pass a provincial motor vehicle inspection that would enable them to meet registration, licensing and insurance requirements for on-road use.
Also...
Motor shut-off requirement
(1)A motor assisted cycle must be equipped with a mechanism, separate from the accelerator controller, that

(a)allows the driver to turn the motors on and off from a normal seated position while operating the motor assisted cycle, or

(b)prevents the motors from turning on or engaging before the motor assisted cycle attains a speed of 3 km/hr.

(2)The motors of a motor assisted cycle must turn off or disengage if

(a)the operator stops pedaling,

(b)an accelerator controller is released, or

(c)a brake is applied.

[am. B.C. Reg. 56/2018, s. 2.]
Section one, forcus on "Or."

Section 2, A B or C, pick one or more, but it doesn't mean all of the above to me.
Last edited by HK12K on May 13 2020 2:40pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by Balmorhea » May 13 2020 2:37pm

HK12K wrote:
May 13 2020 8:26am
Then they cry about the whales and the turtles and the environment and social distancing, completely ignoring the benefits of personal electric conveyance. Because they're too cheap or stupid to join us, I suspect.
There's nothing unfair about treating an electric moped/scooter/minibike the same as a gasoline powered moped/scooter/minibike. That should be the default. Electric bicycles being treated as bicycles is an exception and a privilege, and it should come with requirements that the e-bike move like, and even look like, a bicycle. If you don't like that, fine. Register it as a moped; you can do that everywhere.

Look at it this way: If someone rides a Harley LiveWire or a Tesla Roadster, should they be free from license, registration and insurance requirements, and should they be allowed to claim that their vehicles are bicycles just because they're electric? Of course not. There very much should be standards, beyond being electrically powered, for what qualifies as a electric bicycle. And those standards should exclude things like the Harley LiveWire and the Motorino XMR.
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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by HK12K » May 13 2020 2:44pm

Balmorhea wrote:
May 13 2020 2:37pm
HK12K wrote:
May 13 2020 8:26am
Then they cry about the whales and the turtles and the environment and social distancing, completely ignoring the benefits of personal electric conveyance. Because they're too cheap or stupid to join us, I suspect.
There's nothing unfair about treating an electric moped/scooter/minibike the same as a gasoline powered moped/scooter/minibike. That should be the default. Electric bicycles being treated as bicycles is an exception and a privilege, and it should come with requirements that the e-bike move like, and even look like, a bicycle. If you don't like that, fine. Register it as a moped; you can do that everywhere.

Look at it this way: If someone rides a Harley LiveWire or a Tesla Roadster, should they be free from license, registration and insurance requirements, and should they be allowed to claim that their vehicles are bicycles just because they're electric? Of course not. There very much should be standards, beyond being electrically powered, for what qualifies as a electric bicycle. And those standards should exclude things like the Harley LiveWire and the Motorino XMR.
The law states that these things be limited to 30 kilometers per hour on flat ground without pedaling. That is slower than just about anyone on a geared pedal bike. Who cares if they're pedaling or not? They might as well be riding a flashy handicap scooter at those speeds. They're also bigger and shoutier looking than most bikes, which means they should be easier to see and avoid. What's the rub? Why gatekeep electric transportation? Maybe people want to get out of their vehicles or transit but don't feel like pedaling. Why is that such a problem for some people?

Edit: And really, how many pedestrians are killed by 90lb lycras on 2lb pedal bikes each year? The "Oh, that's too heavy to be a bicycle" argument some people throw out doesn't really jive with me, especially when these scooters are moving at half the speed. Not to mention, I'm the better part of 300. Put me on a drop bar bike and let me run into someone at full speed, they're going to wish it had been a 30kmh motorino.

The best thing they can do is to loosen the nonsense restrictions, impose speed limits for multi use paths and maybe bike lanes (though there is already a reasonable speed limit on the street, so what's wrong with that?) and tell motorists and pedestrians to look up from their phones once in a while. If they want to offer voluntary insurance for bicycles, I'm all for it. Mandatory, not so much.

The livewire and XMR are on completely different planets. I can only believe you've never seen one in person and are basing your opinion on stock photos from the internet, where they look much larger and faster than they are.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by John in CR » May 13 2020 7:55pm

The real problem is bicycles of any kind being allowed to mix with pedestrians, so of course that majority complains. Push for real infrastructure, not ridiculous detailed rules, if you want to ride something slow. In the meantime get or build a real vehicle that can safely mix with traffic. If your jurisdiction has too many requirements to do that, move. Here a motor rated at 5kw and up makes it some kind of motorcycle requiring a license, registration, insurance, inspection, etc. Under 5kw and it's a motorized bicycle, with few requirements other than lights and reflective wear at night, a helmet, and speed limits and traffic signals. It's mountainous here, so typical low power requirements common in the rest of the world, would put you at low speeds on inclines that would be unsafe.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by markz » May 13 2020 8:20pm

Balmorhea wrote:
May 12 2020 10:01pm
The defendant isn’t someone, and the bike isn’t something, that we should be allied with. They’re both exploiting a privilege that isn’t for them, and we all stand to lose our privileges to ride e-bikes as bicycles rather than mopeds due to this kind of dumb, clearly abusive nonsense.
Totally agree, that thing the defendant was riding looks like a motorcycle at first glance. It takes a lot of effort to discern that it even has pedals and by that time, its too late. Someones ratting the defendant out by using their cell phone and calling the authorities. Or, the authority has already seen the motorcycle and is pulling them over.

Stay away from the Motorino XMr and everything else that looks like a motorcycle with pedals.
Stay away from Enduro ebikes
Only buy ebikes that look like bicycles from 100 miles away. If you live in NYC, hide the motor, cont, battery. If you live in the UK, buy a 250W sticker for the 3kw motor. Be courteous, be safe, dont do wheelies, dont do 60kph, dont be a dick, be nice, be kind, be reasonable. Have fun, be safe.

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