Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

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zuora   1 mW

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Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by zuora » May 02 2020 1:10am

Just saw this case and wonder what everyone thinks of this.

https://www.drivesmartbc.ca/case-law/ca ... -v-ghadban

Basically, someone with a commercially sold bike (NO modifications to speed) was ticketed for operating a vehicle with no license/insurance.

Judge upheld the conviction because the wheels were not over 350mm...

Wondering if this person has any recourse?

Full case file here:

https://www.bccourts.ca/jdb-txt/sc/20/0 ... SC0664.htm

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by Balmorhea » May 02 2020 4:39am

The law seems pretty clear, which is why the judgment was upheld on appeal.

If you want to take advantage of privileges allocated to bicycles (or electric bicycles), then ride one. Attaching pedals to something else doesn’t cut it, at least in this case. I think it’s a victory for common sense.
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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by john61ct » May 02 2020 5:02am

under 14" ???

yes hard to call that a bicycle

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by zuora » May 02 2020 6:37am

This is the bike in question:

https://motorino.ca/motorino-xmr

Judge says tires are 46 mm too small , other than that it would fit all other specifications under Canadian law to a t.

Manufacturer states that they are classed as motor assisted cycles legally on their website, and specifically mentions not needing insurance or a license.

If the buyer can't get the conviction appealed, would they have a case against the seller? This is sold locally.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by dogman dan » May 02 2020 7:17am

Not a bicycle. Seller is confused. It may be legal somewhere, quite likely legal in my state of the USA, but as a moped. I don't even see the pedals.

Only one thing matters here, what the judge says. But yes, you could take the seller to small claims court. However, the judge should rightly rule that whatever the seller said, the operators ignorance of the law is seldom excused. But even after a judge says that, he could rule that the seller misbehaved, and could be forced to take a full return and refund.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by goatman » May 02 2020 8:44am

im not far from there, I actually zip through there quite often, what I notice about those scooters is the operators are on sidewalks and riding the crosswalks. the law says youre not allowed to double, only 1 rider on the bike. I live about 1 mile from the main cop shop and im surrounded by probably 1000 cops, if theyre not in the cruisers then theyre in their personal cars and ive never been hassled or pulled over. I think they know me and see that most of the time im good but they've also seen me hauling ass, I didn't realise one was behind me and I was doing 40mph up king George hwy going to save on foods, right next door to save on foods is a community cop shop with another 15 cop cars there,. like I said im surrounded by cops and never been bothered.

I should go back and see if that was RCMP or SkyPig/transit cop that nailed the scooter. in BC we have Transit cops, they are more like a mall cop than a real cop that walking around giving tickets. they didn't say RCMP and the only "cops" hanging around the skytrain stations are Transit cops. the skytrain cops will measure your bicycle and if its longer than 74 inches, its not allowed on the transit system. so if someone wants to take a beach cruiser from surrey to downtown/seawall on the skytrain and you get a bad cop they will kick you off.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by HK12K » May 02 2020 9:31am

Ban the lawmakers.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by john61ct » May 02 2020 9:34am

put bigger tires on

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by HK12K » May 02 2020 10:08am

If only it were that easy:

"The trail judge continued in his reasons to disqualify the Motorino XMr as a MAC as follows:

[21] However, quite apart from the discrepancy related to wheel size, I would disqualify it as a MAC for the simple reason that it does not function in accordance with the intention of the legislation pertinent to MACS. Arguably, the Motorino XMr is in essence an electric scooter that is capable of being pedaled, rather than a “cycle” that is assisted by electric propulsion. That is, its primary mode of propulsion is an electric motor. The functions of the pedals, while not decorative are limited in application."

Though using the term "arguably" in his ruling does perhaps leave the door open for future defendants to make a case for themselves.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by HK12K » May 02 2020 10:17am

Also, I disagree with the judges interpretation of the intent of the law regarding mac's.

Per ICBC:

"Motor-assisted cycle (detailed definition)
To qualify as a MAC, certain conditions must be met. For example:

The electric motor must be 500 watts or less and be capable of propelling the cycle no faster than 32 km/h on level ground without pedalling.
The vehicle must be equipped with a mechanism that either:
allows the driver to turn the motor on and off, or
prevents the motor from turning on or engaging before the MAC attains a speed of 3 km/h
The motor must disengage when the operator:
stops pedalling, or
releases the accelerator or
applies a brake.
The motor cannot be gas-powered.
The motor must be capable of being propelled by muscular power using the pedals, but it is not necessary to always be pedalling
The vehicle must meet any other conditions in the Motor Assisted Cycle Regulation (B.C. Reg 151/2002)."

Per the provincial government:

"
Motor Vehicle Act
MOTOR ASSISTED CYCLE REGULATION
[includes amendments up to B.C. Reg. 56/2018, March 22, 2018]

Contents
1 Motors
2 Wheels
3 Motor shut-off requirement
4 Generators
5 Brake performance requirement
6 Drive system and equipment securement
7 Electrical terminals
Motors
1 The motors of a motor assisted cycle must

(a) be electric motors,

(b) have continuous power output ratings that in total do not exceed 500 watts, and

(c) not be capable of propelling the motor assisted cycle at a speed greater than 32 km/hr on level ground.

[en. B.C. Reg. 56/2018, s. 1.]

Wheels
2 (1) The wheels of a motor assisted cycle must be 350 mm or more in diameter.

(2) A motor assisted cycle must not have more than 3 wheels in contact with the ground.

Motor shut-off requirement
3 (1) A motor assisted cycle must be equipped with a mechanism, separate from the accelerator controller, that

(a) allows the driver to turn the motors on and off from a normal seated position while operating the motor assisted cycle, or

(b) prevents the motors from turning on or engaging before the motor assisted cycle attains a speed of 3 km/hr.

(2) The motors of a motor assisted cycle must turn off or disengage if

(a) the operator stops pedaling,

(b) an accelerator controller is released, or

(c) a brake is applied.

[am. B.C. Reg. 56/2018, s. 2.]

Generators
4 A motor assisted cycle must not be equipped with a generator, alternator or similar device powered by a combustion engine.

Brake performance requirement
5 (1) A motor assisted cycle must be equipped with brakes on all wheels or on each axle.

(2) The braking system must be capable of bringing the motor assisted cycle, while being operated at a speed of 30 km/hr, to a full stop within 9 m from the point at which the brakes were applied.

Drive system and equipment securement
6 The motor drive systems and all energy storage devices of a motor assisted cycle must be secured to prevent movement in any direction relative to the motor assisted cycle while the motor assisted cycle is operating.

[am. B.C. Reg. 56/2018, s. 3.]

Electrical terminals
7 All electrical terminals on a motor assisted cycle must be completely insulated or covered.

[Provisions relevant to the enactment of this regulation: Motor Vehicle Act, R.S.B.C. 1996, c. 318, s. 182.1]

Copyright (c) Queen's Printer, Victoria, British Columbia, Canada"

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by goatman » May 02 2020 11:17am

I think the day the RCMP start getting ebikes our fun will be over.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by HK12K » May 02 2020 11:39am

They were supposedly in talks with Sunahme a number of years ago, but nothing ever came of it.

You're right though, if not long before. Once they realize what 500w actually rides like, we're boned.

Hmm. I wonder if they'll be limited to 500w too?

What motor controller combo is faster than a Ford Explorer again? :lol:


As far as I see it the defendant in the OP could have claimed there was no probable cause or reasonable suspicion for the stop, because the officer stated that the primary reason for issuing the ticket was based on the fact that the defendant was able to ride past him and move the bike into a storage locker without pedaling. Pedaling is not a prerequisite for MAC status, it is one approved option of operation, the other being a throttle and secondary disconnect. You must have operable pedals, which he had.

Yes his wheels are too small, so it could be said that upon further inspection it was found to contravene the MVA, but the arresting officer made no reference to wheel size during the stop nor anything about the doubling. The officer, defendant, and even the original court which heard the case seemed to have no knowledge or at least made no mention of these particular stipulations and the defendant purchased and used the bike in good faith based on information he received from what was likely a licensed business in the lower mainland. It could have been used as a learning experience instead of a punitive one, because the officers original complaint did not meet the standard for prosecution as far as I'm concerned. That's nearly a grand in fines... not inconsequential, especially for someone riding a cheap electric scooter bike thing and taking transit.

The judges perception that the the intent of the law was that you must pedal as a primary input is his opinion, but not representative of the law as written whatsoever in mine.

He wins though, I guess.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by zuora » May 02 2020 6:51pm

There's an article now:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... xUSqkLC0p0

I also heard that another rider from Surrey had his bike impounded yesterday...so soon after this judgment was published.

Anyone in the lower mainland going to hold off on riding their ebikes until there's more clarity around this?

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by zuora » May 02 2020 7:01pm

HK12K wrote:
May 02 2020 10:08am
If only it were that easy:

"The trail judge continued in his reasons to disqualify the Motorino XMr as a MAC as follows:

[21] However, quite apart from the discrepancy related to wheel size, I would disqualify it as a MAC for the simple reason that it does not function in accordance with the intention of the legislation pertinent to MACS. Arguably, the Motorino XMr is in essence an electric scooter that is capable of being pedaled, rather than a “cycle” that is assisted by electric propulsion. That is, its primary mode of propulsion is an electric motor. The functions of the pedals, while not decorative are limited in application."

Though using the term "arguably" in his ruling does perhaps leave the door open for future defendants to make a case for themselves.
On ICBC's page regarding this, it even states:

Some motor-assisted cycles look a lot like mopeds and scooters (also known as limited-speed motorcycles—LSMs). However, the rules for operating MACs and LSMs aren't the same.

https://www.icbc.com/vehicle-registrati ... bikes.aspx

A picture of a "vespa" style ebike is shown on this page. Surely the judge could make the same assessment that the pedals on this model are also "limited in application" and that this is primarily a "scooter with pedaling capability." Would it matter that ICBC absolutely still qualifies this type of vehicle as a "motor assisted cycle" that is exempt from insurance/licensing, despite what the judge thinks?

Thinking of it further, even if note 21 was thrown out somehow later on, the conviction would probably still be upheld on the tire size requirement...right?

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by zuora » May 02 2020 7:04pm

Though the scooter pictured on that site looks like it might not be over the tire size requirement either :roll: .

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by goatman » May 02 2020 7:15pm

that was the same story. im not stopping. I might hook up the pas and potentiometer, there might be something else going on with the confiscated bike though, like flying through a park, being stupid, no lights. your supposed to be 16yrs old also. my kids arent 16 and they have ebikes out in poco, weve never been bugged.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by markz » May 02 2020 8:31pm

That is precisely why I stay the fuckkaway from anything that doesn't look like a bicycle, including staying the fuckkaway from the "Enduro" ebikes. Its not worth the hassle.

What would be interesting to see is if the ebike rider had any past charges, perhaps he was still inside a dui/dwi ban which states that you cant operate any motor vehicle on public land - Lawn mower in front of your house, stand up scooters, trains, boats, cars, motorcycles, airplanes, helicopters... anything motorized.

BTW British Columbia has a database open to the public on pending cases, criminal, traffic and civil. No personal history is available, that breaks confidentiality laws.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by markz » May 02 2020 8:37pm

zuora wrote:
May 02 2020 7:01pm
-
The guy was riding a motorcycle, probably in a field, or on a pathway, maybe even a sidewalk. Even if he was riding on the road the rider would have no license plate and be instantly pulled over. No matter which way you look at it, the motorcycle looking "ebike" is a huge red flag, fireworks, gunfire to get the pig to pull you over. If they would have spent their money, and subsequent lawyers cost and fine and time lost, spend that cash on a normal brand name bicycle, a hub motor (mxus 3kw/5kw, Leaf 1.5kw, 9C 1kw, MAC, whatever) in the rear, a big ass battery, rear rack, pannier bag. You could ride in NYC with 100 pizza's stacked up 20' high and the pigs would think you are riding an analog bicycle (non motorized).

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by HK12K » May 02 2020 8:56pm

Didn't hear about that other rider. Any idea where that happened?

I was out today and yesterday. Didn't do anything differently but I'll try to remember to clown pedal. Unlike Motorino guy my feet are always on my pedals. Hard to prove I never intended to use them when I'm standing on them.

Should probably make it a point to make sure I'm pedaling whenever I'm over 32 as well, especially while going uphill.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by markz » May 02 2020 9:16pm

HK12K wrote:
May 02 2020 8:56pm
Didn't hear about that other rider. Any idea where that happened?

I was out today and yesterday. Didn't do anything differently but I'll try to remember to clown pedal. Unlike Motorino guy my feet are always on my pedals. Hard to prove I never intended to use them when I'm standing on them.

Should probably make it a point to make sure I'm pedaling whenever I'm over 32 as well, especially while going uphill.
Clown/Ghost pedaling is an option

Riding with common courtesy is better, and not going faster the 40kph is wise too. All the people that do go fast, thats fine too its just a higher risk factor of getting pulled over by a pig and questioned. Those questions may or may not be, how much does that thing cost, how far can you go on a charge....

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by zuora » May 02 2020 9:30pm

True, the latest confiscated bike may be due to other factors, but the timing makes me feel perturbed. I've asked that rider for more details..but this one rides in the same area as the first one. Also a "motorcycle" styled ebike. He commented on the facebook thread connected to the article here:

https://www.facebook.com/CBCVancouver/p ... 1931712341

How many times can one appeal? The rider who was charged already did once and failed. I'm not sure how the law works exactly, is this a done deal? If so that would set a dreary precedence.
markz wrote:
May 02 2020 8:37pm
zuora wrote:
May 02 2020 7:01pm
-
The guy was riding a motorcycle, probably in a field, or on a pathway, maybe even a sidewalk. Even if he was riding on the road the rider would have no license plate and be instantly pulled over. No matter which way you look at it, the motorcycle looking "ebike" is a huge red flag, fireworks, gunfire to get the pig to pull you over. If they would have spent their money, and subsequent lawyers cost and fine and time lost, spend that cash on a normal brand name bicycle, a hub motor (mxus 3kw/5kw, Leaf 1.5kw, 9C 1kw, MAC, whatever) in the rear, a big ass battery, rear rack, pannier bag. You could ride in NYC with 100 pizza's stacked up 20' high and the pigs would think you are riding an analog bicycle (non motorized).
Honestly I ride the exact same bike mentioned in the article, and am in the city where this is all taking place, which is why I have a vested interest in the outcome.

I've had it for almost 7 months now, and have never been pulled over...even though I have come across plenty of cops. I obey all road rules and like to think that I'm a responsible motorcyclist. It is indeed limited to 30 something km/hr, I have even had cyclists pass me :cry: .
HK12K wrote:
May 02 2020 8:56pm
Didn't hear about that other rider. Any idea where that happened?

I was out today and yesterday. Didn't do anything differently but I'll try to remember to clown pedal. Unlike Motorino guy my feet are always on my pedals. Hard to prove I never intended to use them when I'm standing on them.

Should probably make it a point to make sure I'm pedaling whenever I'm over 32 as well, especially while going uphill.
Does your bike actually look like a bike, or does it look like a scooter/motorcycle?

My feet are never on the pedals. Ergonomically it would be a nightmare.

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by HK12K » May 02 2020 9:51pm

Ah, Whalley then. Not exactly what I wanted to hear. I went though Invergarry, Hawthorne, Green Timbers and Tynehead today. Luckily for me my wheels are large enough to be compliant and the pedals are where one would expect to find them on a bicycle.

I fear for anyone riding one of the bikes or scooters with small wheels and a pedal setup like the xmr right about now. Such a shame too, because at the end of the day who cares if the rider is pedaling or not? They're already legally limited to the point of being a Nerf product, they're getting people out of their cars and fewer are clogging up the busses, they're using the under utilized bike infrastructure, they're getting some excercise and they're having fun. Better criminalize the shit out of that, post haste!

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by goatman » May 02 2020 10:24pm

I don't get the court case, I think the Judge was wrong. as long as you have the pedals on the scooter and chain is connected, stay off the sidewalks and walk your scooter at crosswalks. the only BS rule they can nail you on is having to go 3km/h before the motor starts but all of them are like that. I was talking with another guy in your area, I think he lives right there at the King George Station and hes been hassled also, he rides one of these but green
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... ajaxhist=0
I don't know whats going on with the cops and those scooters in your area.
like hk I zip through there quite a bit, usually short cutting through the bus drop off lanes :shock: I might want to stop doing that now, if I keep going straight and theres traffic I usually open it up to about 60km/h and go with the traffic til 104, might want to stop doing that too. and then slow down again(no bike lanes there) or ill jump behind on whalley blvd? on my way to the portmann bridge

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by amberwolf » May 02 2020 11:06pm

HK12K wrote:
May 02 2020 10:17am
The motor must be capable of being propelled by muscular power using the pedals,
Interesting, and very strange choice of words (the highlighted ones).

This specific wording thus legally disallows all typical middrives and geared rear hubs, as used on typical bicycles and scooters, because the motor will not be propelled by muscular power using the pedals, since those tyipcally have freewheels in them specifically to prevent having to drive the motor by the pedals when unpowered.

Since it does not say "directly" then it may not exclude front DD hubs, as that will indirectly be propelled by the pedals thru the road surface. Similarly, if it's a trike, it may exclude any motor that is not in the pedal drivetrain itself.

The only thing definitely not disallowed by this is rear direct-drive DD hubmotors where the chain drives a sprocket attached to the motor casing, whcih would then be turned directly by pedalling.

Or any middrive that does not have a freewheel, and thus the pedals turn the motor when pedalling without motor power.

On bikes/etc where the front wheel is driven by the pedals, then only the front DD hubmotor would be allowed (assuming indirect road-surface-transmission of the power is not interpreted as "propelled by muscular power using the pedals").

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Re: Thoughts? Ebike ticketed/conviction upheld (Canada)

Post by amberwolf » May 02 2020 11:11pm

zuora wrote:
May 02 2020 9:30pm

Honestly I ride the exact same bike mentioned in the article, and am in the city where this is all taking place, which is why I have a vested interest in the outcome.
Sounds like time to get really fat tires, so that they are very definitely larger than the minimum diameter, regardless of inflation pressure.

Depending on your frame design, you might have to modify it (and/or the forks) to get the clearance necessary--perhaps by moving the dropouts down and away from the frame/crown with adapter plates.

If the judge's problem with the pedals is that they aren't geared to usefully pedal the bike, you could add an IGH between them and the wheel to give you gearing.

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