I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

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liveforphysics   100 GW

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I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 04 2010 6:48am

Hi guys, this year I'm setting up to do some creative fuel experiments in my NA racing class.

I want the huge oxygen advantages of Nitromethane/Methonal blend fuels, but I don't have the cylinder pressures to make them run properly, and the combustion chamber on my heads doesn't really function well with out blocking the flamewave travel if you try to reach the pressures just through adding a massive piston dome for 18-20:1 compression.

So... doing some reading, it turns out Hydrazine does exactly what I need, destabilizes the Nitromethane to let it liberate it's oxygen and have complete combustion at lower pressures/temps.

I'm willing to have a dedicated second fueling system, and to flush everything clean after every event, yes I'm aware it destroys fuel pumps and eats alumium like candy, and I'm aware anything caustic in the fuel system results in pretty high danger levels. I'm willing to go through all the work of puttiing together a fuel system on-par with the all stainless/Titanium parts that Top-Fuel uses, and I'm willing to replace/rebuild pumps after 1-2 events.

The nitromethane is easy to source, and just 5gal will get me through a whole season. To destabilize it, I only need about ~50cc of hydrozine (non-hydrate) to do the whole batch of fuel for the season.

I guess this stuff used to be pretty easily available for racers to tinker with in adding into fuels, and a ton of records were set by using it. But it seems to have been almost universally banned in racing for various safety reasons about 15years ago, and the public availability of it seems to have dried up. :(

If any of you old-school hot-rodders happen to have an extra 50cc sitting on a shelf somewhere, I will gladly pay for hazmat shipping, and pay you well for the hydrazine.

Thanks!
-Luke
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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 04 2010 6:55am

Or, even better would be a less-toxic alternative to de-stabilize Nitromethane/Methonal. I would rather not use hydrazine, but I don't know of any alternative that accomplishes the same result as effectively in engine use.
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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by Ypedal » Apr 04 2010 8:06am

Interesting stuff..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrazine

Looks like it might be worth looking at hobby rocket groups etc.. or anarchy groups lol.. :twisted:
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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 04 2010 8:19am

Ypedal wrote:Interesting stuff..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrazine

Looks like it might be worth looking at hobby rocket groups etc.. or anarchy groups lol.. :twisted:


Hey, a hobby rocket site sounds like a great place to look :) I don't think it's even a controlled chemical or anything, it's used in making a ton of foam rubbers and film production and lot of other industrial applications. I just need a little perfume bottle of the stuff, I bet there will be somebody on a rocket site with an old jug of the stuff they wouldn't mind parting with a bit. Thanks for tip!
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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by hydro-one » Apr 04 2010 10:47am

If I was close to you Id blow out your candle!!!!!

too much fumes from burning oil, really messes with a guys head......oh and battery fumes probabaly dont help either!!!

lol just kidding man

mad chemist now, makes me remember my home despot chemical aquisitions.....seroiuly though if you want it just make it .. buy the precursors and synthesis it yourself, just do it in a fume hood this time ;)

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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by hydro-one » Apr 04 2010 10:58am

heres a synthesis for the sulfate. seems a bit sketchy, i would check the refs mentions before trying it on a very small scale......http://designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.18 ... lfate.html

once you get the sulfate you have to base it into anhydrous methanol, to get the methanolic hydrazine.

Im in no way endorsiong this synthesis, just found this on a quick google. it may be entirely garbage, but i actually learned some cool practical organic synthesis off the web so its not all garb.

good luck
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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 04 2010 11:09am

hydro-one wrote:If I was close to you Id blow out your candle!!!!!

too much fumes from burning oil, really messes with a guys head......oh and battery fumes probabaly dont help either!!!

lol just kidding man

mad chemist now, makes me remember my home despot chemical aquisitions.....seroiuly though if you want it just make it .. buy the precursors and synthesis it yourself, just do it in a fume hood this time ;)

mike

Hey, thanks for the tip! For some reason I had thought it would be tough to make, but it turns out I've got everything I need to make 50cc all ready here at home, and it seems like a simple process. I bet half the folks on this forum have made hydrazine in small quantities while cleaning at home and never knew it. I don't know why I had thought it was so tough to make, thanks for the suggestion! :)


-Luke
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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by v_tach » Apr 04 2010 11:41am

This topic lead me to do a little reading. Off-topic but I was surprised to learn illicit LSD production can include distilling OFF brand bug spray with sodium hydroxide to obtain diethylamine from the breakdown of the DEET. I'm familiar with meth production because of my professional background but illicit LSD production is reported to be done by only a very small number of people because of the complexity. I've never knowingly run across an LSD lab but now maybe keep my eye open for cans of OFF bug spray, lol.

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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by Grinhill » Apr 05 2010 2:19am

Just had these visions of ATF or SWAT team bustin down Luke's illegal garage lab...or maybe gangsters doin drive-bys 'caus he's movin in on their territory :lol:
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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by hydro-one » Apr 05 2010 1:16pm

edit to remove ignorant comment :)
Last edited by hydro-one on Apr 18 2010 5:15pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 05 2010 1:36pm

lol, v-tack is a good guy :) He's a paramedic :) They can be very handy from time to time. :)


It looks like it's fairly simple to make through the Urea + Hydrogen peroxide method, or the ammonia + sodium hypoclorate ( and catalyst) method.

It's just N2H4, and pyramidal about N, and all single bonds. It's not like trying to put together some crazy designer chain or something wacky.

I'm definitely going to step up my safety game when I make a batch. Chemical apron, sleeve length gloves, chemical face shield, and working outside up-wind from a strong fan blowing. It should turn-out fine. I only need to make just 50cc, so the scale of things should keep it practical and simple for DIY.


I'm determined to make some records fall this year. :)
It would be so fantastic to be the worlds first NA street comp class car to break into the 9s. :) :) :) :)
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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by Ypedal » Apr 05 2010 1:40pm

At least you don't plan to ingest a homebrew solution :lol: .... there are some really crazy crackheads out there lmao..

I wonder how critical the purity of the solution is for your application ? extractions are generally not very hard but getting them lab quality pure is the tough part.
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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by Jeremy Harris » Apr 05 2010 2:10pm

It's pretty simple to synthesise quite a lot of useful (and, perhaps, enjoyable) chemicals with little more than household equipment. The only problem is analysing the product to make sure that it really is what you think it is. There now seems to be a whole industry springing up around "research chemicals" (Google it....)...............

What's even scarier is just how easy it is to make energetic materials, or very potent toxins. For example, you can buy a bag of castor beans cheaply just about anywhere. Crush them, chuck them in acetone, drain, then use simple chromatography to separate out the dissolved compounds and you can separate out around 5% or so of ricin, a toxin around 200 times more lethal than cyanide. A kilo or two of castor beans contain enough ricin to kill maybe 50,000 people. Scary, or what?

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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 05 2010 2:15pm

Ypedal wrote:At least you don't plan to ingest a homebrew solution :lol: .... there are some really crazy crackheads out there lmao..

I wonder how critical the purity of the solution is for your application ? extractions are generally not very hard but getting them lab quality pure is the tough part.

I've taken a few years of college chem, I'm no expert, but I think as long as it's not caustic impurities, I don't think it will matter much. It seems like low temp evaporative distillation should get me pure enough. The whole goal after-all is to de-stabilize.


Here is a fun little article about hydrazine:
http://www.draglist.com/stories/SOD%20J ... 062601.htm

This is pretty funny stuff too!

"Well, they wanted to see me do it again and I said, 'Okay.' All of those guys went down to the top end to get a birds-eye view of my car, and a couple of them were lying down on the sand banks [Oldsmar had natural sand berms the length of the track] to see if my car didn't do anything weird. I thought, 'To hell with it, let's put some hydrazine in this thing and really give 'em a run.' As I got close to the lights, the engine really let go, fire and everything, even singed my moustache. The parts flew everywhere, the lifters blew off, and it sent all those guys ducking and running off. The fire got my attention, but I did get a big kick out of their reaction.

The other story would be a match race between me and Garlits, maybe a year or two earlier at Oldsmar. In the first round, I thought he'd jacked with me on the starting line and it ticked me off a little. So we push down for the next race and he turns in front of me. As he did that, I drove my front wheel right up against the front end of his car, so he couldn't turn the wheel to be backed up. I let him sit there locked in place for awhile and his engine blew up. It's all ancient history, but it was a different sport back then."


Hydrazine seems to be well suited for turning internal combustion engines into external combustion engines :)
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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by v_tach » Apr 18 2010 2:45pm

hydro-one wrote:LOL , this guy up heres a nark for sure...."I'm familiar with meth production because of my professional background "

lol trolling for hippies.....mentioning LSD manufacture , then a little ego stroking for the cook "illicit LSD production is reported to be done by only a very small number of people because of the complexity."

so are you? and if so I would like to know, have you ever taken Lysergic acid diethylamide?



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Last edited by v_tach on Apr 18 2010 6:58pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by hydro-one » Apr 18 2010 5:18pm

agreed, comment removed!! my best friend is actually a paramedic, he peeled me off a dry riverbed when i broke my back mtbing in banff.

were you successful in making your soup LFP??
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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by v_tach » Apr 18 2010 6:59pm

I edited my inappropriate critical comment as it was not deserved. My apologies.

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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by hydro-one » Apr 18 2010 7:02pm

it was deserved!!!! thanks for removing . This board is about sharing knowledge, not heckling or political discussions eh?
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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by Sheriff Jon » Apr 18 2010 8:51pm

hydro-one wrote:edit to remove ignorant comment :)
I have to admit that v tachs first comment was a little out of left field and even considering the home brew alchemy theme of the thread. But when I read this 'edit'...I thought :shock: Oh snap, beter put on the Nomex suit cuz things might just heat up in her.

I am sure, know, there are at least few x Hippies on ES who experimented and tripped the light fantastic in their youth :twisted: But v tach IS one of the good guys, and as previously pointed out he is well versed, educated and trained in handling hazardous materials.
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Re: I need a little Hydrazine. Anyone got some?

Post by v_tach » Apr 18 2010 9:40pm

My only point in my original comment was because I stumbled on the DEET for LSD synthesis while researching Hydrazine. I suppose it really isn't significant to most folks but I have some basic knowledge of the traditional chemistry and that one was new to me. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at such resourcefulness. Some of latest methods of Meth production have taken illicit drug production to a whole other level of gonzo.

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