Back in the Saddle: Going to California: 2011

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Green Machine   100 kW

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by Green Machine » Jul 15 2011 1:43pm

Kingfish,

Can you possibly do a topeak explorer rack and a set of panniers up front?

Or how about my front rack of choice:

http://fortheloveofbikes.blogspot.com/2 ... rrier.html

This is the rack i use...and i can snap large panniers to the side of it.

You may not be able to do because i believe your bike has front suspension...but its worth dumping the front suspension since you dont need on paved road trip anyway.

Also adding front wheel drive it would be better with good ole steel forks non suspension and a snap to install if you have nice large rack up front to mount components. Only hard part is the wheel build.

The motor i would recommend is a bmc 600 torque motor....lightweight and descent hill climber.

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by jonathanm » Jul 15 2011 1:50pm

So if the trailer frame is twisting, then you have a couple of options - add more metal for bracing, or move to a double wheel at the back....neither is ideal, or gonna be quick...

What about doing some testing with gradually reducing the load on the trailer until it becomes useable, then redesigning the trip to suit what you can take, rather than the other way around? You can then address the trailer torsion issue at leisure with the oracle of sacrificial barleys when you get back.....

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by Kingfish » Jul 15 2011 5:02pm

Present Status:
  • I just found a single-speed 13T BMX Freewheel at Redmond Cyclery for $28. However there are two types evidently and the type they have is too wide for my skinny chain. The alternative is to forgo the whole thing and mount the lame 7-speed on. The issue here is that it does not perfectly fit my frame - but then I haven't tried it with the new hub. Worth a shot.
  • The RH has a disc clearance of 15.5mm according to the drawing. I measured my shimmed FH to be 16.5mm; if I purchase 5 shims it will be enough to mount the rear disc brake on the RH.
  • I have been attempting to source some Cordura or Vinyl-coated Polyester locally w/o having to dash into Seattle, however this has come to naught. Figuring a mad dash tomorrow.
  • Need to make a run to Tap Plastics and fetch more HDPE.
  • Fetched 5/16 x 4" bolt & washer from Home Despot.
  • Tonight I'll try to mount the rear hub onto the eBike.
  • I will check to see if my schedule can be pushed out one more week.
Green Machine: In my travels today I thought of several places to stuff batteries; anything is possible.

jonathanm: I think at this point the trailer is a bust. The only way to fix it is to replace the framework. Much can be salvaged for the next trailer. However I agree with you that it would be wise to add weight slowly to the ebike and do a test run until all the batteries could be mounted - if possible.

There is Hope. There is Opportunity. We just need to study it and make certain that we can recover ~ and get back On the Road.

Optimistic, KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by Kingfish » Jul 15 2011 8:27pm

Progress
  • Disassembled the trailer down to basic assemblies so that I could remove the tire. Note to self: Self, with the next trailer design - make sure the wheel can be easily removed without significant disassembly. :roll:
  • Affixed a Shimano 34-14T Mega-Range Freewheel to it. I have a 28-13T Shimano FW also and may end up going with that instead; these spin so much quieter than the Sunrace. Also mounted the Avid 203mm Disc.
  • Mounted said wheel on eBike. Electrical and torque arms need to get sorted out.
  • Getting the disc brake to align was a bugger though not as bad as the front; it could use some shims. Might need longer bolts for brake bracket as I had to use two washers to shove it out far enough to match the disc; weird.
That’s as far as I got. Time for Friday’s medication, er… meditation at the OoSB.

Cheers, KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by deVries » Jul 16 2011 7:30pm

liveforphysics wrote:The worst possible thing you can do for a trailer is to make it long and put the weight over the back/rear axle area. This make a device that requires almost no influences to start swinging, and something that will be very difficult to stop swinging.
Actually, the worst possible thing you can do for your trailer is build it & test it (correction: not "test it" but just "race" it) like LFP does for his first race bike build. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Man, tricking out a race bike or doing a long-haul trailer trip on a unique design probably demands a week or two or three leeway for mods & re-dodos. :P [At least I can't run on 24/7 fumes anymore... but it sure is hell is fun reading all the live updates & excitement of the immediate adventure & creation in the moment... :lol: Not say'n it's destined for failure as in LFP taking 3rd place!!! :wink: 8) :twisted: BUT, LFP burned his candles at all ends to barely get 'there' & 'do' it. The awesome luxury of youth and boundless energy.]

I'm being a smart-ass :mrgreen: & realistic :P , I guess, but I was reading your thread from start to finish believing I was 2 weeks behind your start & would see lots of road trip pics by now. Bummer to find it stalled out by the unforeseen need for shakedown pre-trip. :oops:

Now, you're at that 1-2-3 week shakedown phase, but no time appears to have been allotted for it. I'm really not bitching but I do believe you have to be prepared like your boyscout motto says, otherwise be prepared for the inevitable delays for "the shakedown" for actual road worthiness.

Hope you find a happy solution that works. Hasn't anyone else on ES done some long-haul trailer trips w/posts? If you got the $$$ maybe you could just copycat 'that' & go with something known to work from another *already* completed shakedown road trip?
llile wrote:When I built the first one-wheel trailer, I loaded it up with camping gear for a shakedown cruise, and it scared the bejeebers out of me going down a big hill. Wobbling back and forth out of control. I reinforced some key parts of it with some triangulation and some more rigid steel and the wobbling stopped. Grab the trailer in your hands and try to bend it at various weak points. Can you make it deflect, even a tiny amount? Say by twisting the parts that connect to the bike frame? That deflection can add up and feedback into a major fishtail under heavy loads. :shock:
Can you mod your trailer to take-out the twisting? Install a light weight base/bottom with cross support or use 90 degree angle around the perimeter, attach rib(s)/bars at the mid points on each side, or at both front & end, and triangulate that up in height for vertical no-twist "stiffness" attaching to the frame "center-rib", clamp/epoxy or weld it, and then have the rigidity transferring the twisting forces into the trailer frame & base preventing that "rope twist" motion? Or, steal from the Bob-trailer design adding that vertical tri-structural component. You can even tension cables & triangulate that too saving space & weight. Or, is the rear suspension on the bike itself the devil in the details; maybe too much play in the attachment hardware allowing for that "rope twist"? Hey, I'm shooting in the dark blind here. :?

Anyway, best of luck to you... & I look forward to your solution & adventure... 8) :D

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by Kingfish » Jul 17 2011 12:23am

deVries, nothing could have saved that trailer except a light load out; nothing greater than 50 lbs. That doesn’t help much when I have 76 lbs. of batteries to haul + cargo. There is no way I could have stiffened the frame cheaply; it would have been better to use a steel frame, though the best solution would have been to forgo the bike-frame and craft a custom frame. This is the lesson learned; it cost money and time, but I also gain a lot of experience and I am not terribly unhappy. Bummed, sure; I wanted it to work. Though I am going to take my lumps and keep going until I run out of time or opportunity.

Last word on the trailer: I have disassembled the unit and removed the rear hub motor. Parts were put in a box labeled “eTrailer”, with faring and cover and frame (still wired for bear) put aside until a future date. :wink:


P1.2WD is born!

Image

This took a lot longer than I anticipated because I put in a few mods:
  • Primary goal was to address the rickety linkage. There was more involved than just inserting a washer. It turns out one of the bearings was pressed in too far, so I had to snake out a way to pull it back out without all the fancy shop tools (and I did). Then I filed down flat – and I mean F L A T a single “flat” washer; flat washers are not entirely flat as they are typically stamped, so the way to make them truly flat is to file them or use a granite-top table or grinding stone, or whatever and remove that lip business. Now I had a nice flat bearing surface and I rebuilt that one pesky pivot – new tougher bolt and all. The result is that the ebike frame is “firm”; the frame still flexes though it is tight now. The pivot affected was the one right next to the controllers where I have the top of the rack connected.
  • Upgraded bolts at the rear pivot where the lower part of the rack connects; these were replaced with Stainless Steel bolts with a nice bearing shank. It was a bugger to swap out.
  • Took the wheel and painted the shiny rim parts flat black to match the front rim (more or less); this meant that I had to mask off the rest of the tire; both sides.
  • Weaseled out two torque arms. The left side is completely ghetto; the link should be replaced with tougher steel. The right side uses the EBikeKit torque arm which doesn’t help a whole lot due to the rotation of the rear axle – but a second torque arm is a second torque arm; it’s what we had. Fabricated left side frame clamp from thick Aluminum bar stock. Not optimum, but it works for now.
  • Unmounted the Shimano Mega-Range 34-14T and put on the smaller version 28-13T. However, this freewheel synched down tight against the hub and would not spin, so I ended up putting the mega-range back on. It is so quiet compared to my Hope cassette.
  • Wired up the hub and integrated the wheel into the eBike. Then I took it for a spin. Note: I had already de-rated both controllers for efficiency, so the front wheel is only pulling 20 Battery Amps & 50 Phase Amps, whilst the rear hub is pulling 15 battery and 40 Phase.
Pulled out onto the street which is one of the steepest inclines in the city of Redmond. Made a left and goosed it up the hill: It climbs like a fricken banshee that just had a quad-shot of espresso! Not hard enough to pull a wheelie though – but we don’t care. Raced over the top of the horseshoe and back down the other side – very steep… picking up some really good speed coasting down – silently, stealthy… I hit the ebrake: Slows very quickly. Get to the bottom and wait for traffic to clear – then I goose it!

Holy moly this things got legs and… then I realize I have the 3-Speed set to 85%; well let’s open this puppy and let the baby breathe; I kick it over to 120% ~ flames came out the back! :twisted: OK – flames did not come out the back, but I was flying just the same. Pealed off to a side street so I could turn around and make another run. As far as pedally goes – there was no way I could keep up with a 53:14 ratio. The 53:11 (9-Speed cassette) though could have. I make another run until I’m out of breath from pumping hard – and I know I could have put more into it if I had the right ratios. Make a reggie onto my steep street and tear arse up the hill. Get to the top, park, and check my stats:
  • FH: MaxS = 42.0 mph, Regen = 3.9%, Wh/mi = 22.3
    RH: MaxS = 42.5 mph, Regen = 9.5%, Wh/mi = 15.6
Caveats: I know the RShunt values are not set correctly. The total miles is also slightly off. It has been a struggle to get these two units to be in sync – though really I think they are dialed in pretty close.
  • I had zero-contention between the wheels and controllers; this is been the most trouble-free aspect of the entire project: A Primary Controller with a second one slaved.
  • I did not have time to get to Seattle Fabrics today, and they are closed on Sunday. So the battery bags will need to wait.
  • In the meantime, I can still load up the panniers with weight until the bike becomes notably unstable (well – at least to the point where we can acknowledge that handling is more trouble than it’s worth).
  • A preliminary study suggest that I could put 12 additional batteries over the top of my present 18 batteries collocated in the triangle; the 12 would go all the way forward and next to the steerer and should not hit my knees. That’s a total of 30 batteries forward, leaving 48 split between the rear. The weight comes out to 38 lbs. forward and 61 lbs. aft. I don’t have a scale so I cannot tell how much the cargo will weigh.
That’s about it for now; I’m stoked!

Last word: It did cross my mind during this assembly to insert a 3-Way switch on the Throttle back to each controller as: A, B, and A + B. This way I could figure out which motor might be most useful for different types of conditions or for economy. But – I think I like the 2WD as is; what a monster experience! At this point I presume that I no longer have an electric bicycle, and not really a moped either – but a light electric motorcycle! I hope the frame can last.

Purring like a just-fed happy kitten sleepin' in front of the fire, KF :mrgreen: <purr purr>
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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Green Machine   100 kW

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by Green Machine » Jul 17 2011 2:50am

Awesome KF!

Way better than lugging around a trailer as well. I like new version better.

You are set!

I will say prayer tonight before bedtime that kingfish hits the road soon for his epic journey.

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by jonathanm » Jul 17 2011 3:20am

Image

Game on!

I'm impressed with your persistence (stubbornness?)

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by dbaker » Jul 17 2011 9:48am

Way to go, KF :D

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by deVries » Jul 17 2011 10:43am

Kingfish wrote:That’s about it for now; I’m stoked!

Last word: It did cross my mind during this assembly to insert a 3-Way switch on the Throttle back to each controller as: A, B, and A + B. This way I could figure out which motor might be most useful for different types of conditions or for economy. But – I think I like the 2WD as is; what a monster experience! At this point I presume that I no longer have an electric bicycle, and not really a moped either – but a light electric motorcycle! I hope the frame can last.

Purring like a just-fed happy kitten sleepin' in front of the fire, KF :mrgreen: <purr purr>
Glad your spirits are stoked, you've done an amazing change-up, and you're familiar with a similar set-up... except 2 motors this time round. 8)

Maybe you can ditch some more travel weight now or along the way if desired. Look forward to a lot of "the experience" pics. Try to take some/many with you in it too. It's always more interesting to see the rider-participant "etraveler" too when possible. :D

May you have no flats or wipe-outs. :mrgreen: :arrow:

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by REdiculous » Jul 17 2011 12:27pm

If it was me I'd take the trailer (unpowered) anyway. Even if it'll only hold 50lbs, it's that much less weight and bulk on the bike....easier on the tires at least.

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by Kingfish » Jul 17 2011 1:21pm

REdiculous wrote:If it was me I'd take the trailer (unpowered) anyway. Even if it'll only hold 50lbs, it's that much less weight and bulk on the bike....easier on the tires at least.
Strangely – I have been reconsidering the option for that reason. The primary issue with restoring the trailer is that I only have one 24” wheel strung up, and that’s now mounted on the eBike rear. (The frame can only accept 24" wheels). That given, I do have another 24” Kris Holm Rim, 24” Hookworm, and 24” DH Tube (3 in fact) – just no hub or spokes. It would likely take a week to get spokes unless I can rob Peter to pay Paul; buy a 24” rim locally that’s already spoked-out. The problem there is that those spokes are likely to be not as strong. Though it is definitely an intriguing thought. The trailer needs to have at least 30 lbs. on it to prevent it from bouncing: With clothes, tools, and spares – that about completes the equation.
  • I have done another weight calculation. It is remotely possible to put 18 batteries forward. This would reduce the aft section to 21 batteries on each side; totals are 36 fore and 42 aft or 46 lbs. fore and 53 lbs. aft. I like those numbers and shall try to shoot for that.
  • Alternatively I do have these Timbuktu bags that I bought last year; they hold 6 batteries each, and can be modified tonight to sling across the front. Also just did an assay on my APP connectors; it will be close but I think I have enough to do the job.
  • It’s been raining pretty hard outside and I’m not keen of getting wet, but will do shortly for the weight tests. Just trying to figure out how to hang the weight.
  • Also I have a DNP Epoch 8 Speed Freewheel 11T Small Cog 11-32. I was thinking of pulling the 11T ring off and putting that onto the Shimano (being that it’s a better quality freewheel).
  • Lastly, I want to check and see if my custom Front Torque Arm can fit on the rear, and if so then have the Machinist crank me out two more.
All easy tasks for a wet Sunday. At least it’s a warm rain.
River Deep, Mountain High. KF
Last edited by Kingfish on Jul 17 2011 8:55pm, edited 1 time in total.
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by REdiculous » Jul 17 2011 7:36pm

Even a really old junker wheel missing a few spokes would work if you're only loading 50lbs or so. I can usually trip over those at the junk shop. :wink:

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by Kingfish » Jul 17 2011 9:42pm

Noon Update
I just got off the phone with Gregg’s Cycles in Bellevue; I forgot that they have a spoke thread rolling machine- and that have single-butted spokes, not the 2.1 Sapim – but they do have 2.0 and that might be strong enough. AND – I have a spare Hope Pro II hub. Instead of using the Problem-Solvers rear axle, I use the custom axle I has made up for the hitch instead. Now the challenge is how to mount the hitch to the hub motor…

Late Afternoon Weight Test Results
There were four incremental tests given before I left for Gregg’s, each adding a bit more weight to the front and then to the back. Legend:
  • Num = Test number. The first test has doesn’t count since the batteries are already in situ.
    Where = Fore or Aft.
    Type = Device used to add weight; batteries, frozen gallons of water, or lifting weights.
    Amount = in pounds.
    Total = Running total with each test.
    F/R Total = Cumulative total for front and rear.
    Goal = 1st figure is the total weight, and the second figure is the remainder.

Code: Select all

Num	Where	Type		  Amount	Total	F/R Tot	Comments
0	  Front	Batts, 18	22.86	 16.6	 22.9		Already on the eBike since January 1st, though included in the total weight.	
1	  Rear	 2 gallons	16.6	  33.2	 16.6		Hardly worth noting
2	  Front	Batts, 12	15.24	 48.44	38.1		Know it's there, minor lugging uphill
3	  Rear	 2 gallons	16.6	  65.04	33.2		Just beginning to feel squirrely, though manageable
4	  Front	3 lbs x 3	9.00	  74.04	47.1		Struggles to start on steep incline - but climbs well enough.  Bounce in frame noticeable but does not "wobble".  Definitely harder to manage.  Not sure I would feel comfortable putting any more weight on.
Goal			 99.06		25.02							  Conclusion: Means that 18 to 24 batts must go to trailer.
EDIT: Formatting.

Test #4 had me worried; I did not want to add more weight because it would take the fun out of riding. In fact – I was a little fearful after Test #3 which is where I could still enjoy the drive without much effort.

Return of the Trailer
Whether it’s “Return of…” or “Son of…” or “Version II” ~ I think we need to resurrect the Trailer. The weight test did prove one thing crystal-clear: The rickety wobble is gonzo. :) I could not make it klink about like it did before and that is a good sign.

About 5 PM I bolted off to Bellevue – enjoying every hill climb I found – and dropped off the goods at Gregg’s to fabricate a 24” wheel; they said they could get this ready for me by tomorrow; they are planning on having it deal with a 50 lb load, and I asked them to armor the shit out of the thing too. We also discussed a special type of hand brake that has two cable-pulls for like one-armed people or BMX tricksters that want just one hand on the control. The idea is to run a second “Tandem” type brake line all the way back to the rear disc. Anyways – the concept is being explored. I am not going to wait for mail-order stuff though; if it’s not local – it’s not going on the frame.

That leave’s one sticky wicket left and that’s how to mount the hitch to the hub motor. I could to it the “Bob” way but I think that’s kinda low-strength. Anyways, it needs sorting out. Tomorrow is a big day then for me; Seattle, then Bellevue, then Machinist. If it comes together I’d like to leave on Tuesday – but that’s not realistic, so it looks like Wednesday at the soonest – weight being the biggest issue.

Note to Self: Self – the front wheel spins too much so let’s reduce the current. Also we need to dial back a bit more on both power-hungry controllers for long distance thrift.

Summery for those jumping into the middle
Last year I went to California on a hardtail and broke 5 spokes on the last day cos the bike was too heavy. Resolved to build a trailer for this year and put most of the weight on it. Decided early on to make the trailer a pusher. Trailer ended up having a weird and yet dangerous axial twisting motion when under full load. Hub motor from trailer was removed and then added to the eBike – making it a full-suspension 2WD light “Enduro” type urban assault vehicle; it tears arse as a hill climber! The majority of the entire weight will now go on the ebike with the trailer in tow carrying < 40%; this should greatly reduce the nasty axial twisting problem. This is the last best hope to reach California this year by ebike.

Cheers, KF
Last edited by Kingfish on Jul 18 2011 9:41am, edited 1 time in total.
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

User avatar
mobybike   10 mW

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by mobybike » Jul 18 2011 1:55am

Thanks for posting all this KF! I can't help but armchair engineer along with you as you go, and I just wanted to mention a couple of things that "seem" like it might help.
  • Mounting Hookworms... when you wrap the rim a lot of times with tape or liner, it make the tire harder to mount. Prove this by mounting the tire without any liner = easy.
  • 2.1 Sapim spokes you use, are thicker at the "j" bend. This is useful for hubs with larger holes (hub motors, but actually bigger would be still better... see next bullit), but on your regular hubs the 2.0 (14g) will be just as strong.
  • Breaking spokes; the stress riser of note on e-bike hubs are the j end. The reason spokes break here is because they bend here, like when you bend a paper clip or wire over and over, it finally breaks. The e-bike hub has large holes in the flanges, the bicycle spokes typically used are too small and every revolution of the wheel bends the spoke here at the flange. Push down, pull up. push down pull up round and round it goes. Eliminate the extra space here and only the spoke body flexes not the "j" end. This is why even thin spokes can sometimes produce a stronger longer lasting wheel. There is less stress on the ends. The nipple end is another concern, because the large flange and cross pattern typically used on e-bike hubs produces a tight bend at the nipple, and if the wheel builder doesn't compensate and adjust this area, you have another stress riser that will cause spoke breakage here or the nipple will also fatigue and fail.
  • Torsion from the trailer; When you place a load on either side of the wheel back there over your 24" wheel, you are using a large heavy lever that wants to stay static or move where it wants to. The bigger the loaded wheel, the greater the leverage twisting against your bikes frame and wheel/tire via the massive hitch you designed. Reducing leverage would probably include; no weight placed over the wheel at all, all weight forward of the tire. SMALLER lever = smaller wheel. 16" wheel smaller lighter tire. The center of gravity against the load would be shifted aft, and weight the tongue at the same time. This would allow the trailer to track you instead of attack you.
Keep up the great work, its fun to watch all this, thanks for logging it! It would be great to see you get to go after all!

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by Kingfish » Jul 18 2011 10:31am

Hi Moby
Many humble thanks on the feedback :)
  • Broken spokes: Makes sense. Last year this occurred on the non-hub wheel; 19-yo original equipment! I had the rim replaced in Auburn.
  • Torsion: Yes, I think that sounds reasonable. The Bob trailer design has the small wheel aft of the platform. In my case the rear wall of the battery box is about an inch forward of the axle. On that point…
Correction
I found a typo in the previous post. Evidently I had 6 more pounds on the ebike than indicated (which is good). Regardless, I think we have a good case for bringing the Trailer back because I really do not want to add more weight to the bike. Updated results are below.

Code: Select all

Num	Where	Type		  Amount	Total	F/R Tot
0	  Front	Batts, 18	22.86	 22.9	 22.9	
1	  Rear	 2 gallons	16.6	  39.5	 16.6
2	  Front	Batts, 12	15.24	 54.7	 38.1
3	  Rear	 2 gallons	16.6	  71.3	 33.2
4	  Front	3 lbs x 3	9.00	  80.3	 47.1
Goal			 99.06		 18.8
Seeking Balancing
This is still hypothetical – however I would like to remove the last 9 lbs added to the front (Test #4) and put that on the Trailer. New numbers would be:
  • Front = 18 (original) + 12 more (30 total) = 38.1 lbs. fore
    Rear = about 24 batteries, 27 max = 33.2 lbs. aft
    Trailer = about 24 batteries, 28 lbs.
  • I will need to play around with the qualities between the Rear and Trailer cos I will want easy access to tools, food, and the Charger.
  • Trailer batteries, if using 24, can be split as 12 on each side, and I can move those all the way forward within the box where the weight is over the Bottom Bracket. Airy cargo, such as clothes and jackets can go aft to make room for denser items to move forward.
  • I will also try to trim the total weight down as well.
Daylights’ burning, KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

SamTexas   100 MW

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by SamTexas » Jul 18 2011 2:43pm

Is now a good time to change the thread tittle to something more appropriate?
Last edited by SamTexas on Jul 18 2011 4:05pm, edited 1 time in total.

dbaker   100 kW

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by dbaker » Jul 18 2011 2:48pm

Try to be more positive, SamTexas :roll: Most of us are still pulling for KF to get on the road. We want ES positive energy to help get him there :mrgreen:

SamTexas   100 MW

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by SamTexas » Jul 18 2011 4:05pm

OK, message edited.

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Kingfish   10 GW

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by Kingfish » Jul 18 2011 9:03pm

dbaker wrote:Try to be more positive, SamTexas :roll: Most of us are still pulling for KF to get on the road. We want ES positive energy to help get him there :mrgreen:
My Support Network: You guys rock! 8)


The Day of Gremlins!
  • Before I headed out, or tried to… I screwed around trying to figure out how I am going to get an 11T on the freewheel. Finally after fussing about I just went ahead and put the DNP Epoch 8 Speed Freewheel 11T Small Cog that I had laying about. The original plan was to rip off the 11T and put it on the Shimano, but they are made by different manufacturers and have zero-interchangeability. For all the times I’ve taken the rear hub off and played with eh disc rotors – I had a good idea how to fix the spacing problem and nailed it on the first try. The DNP Epoch 8 Speed Freewheel is now mounted and spins fine; we are good to go on gearing ~ not optimum, but good enough.
    Image
  • Loaded the bike with the Hitch to take back to the Machinist for rework. Also loaded the charger so as to top off before heading out to Seattle Fabrics. Also took with me the Timbuk2 bags cos I think it’s faster to adapt them as 6-gun, er 6-battery holders; just needs a under-over sling and power cabling.
  • Reprogrammed the Primary-Front controller to 14A Battery/35 Phase from 20A/50A. I’m ready to go. :)
At 1:30 PM - head out the door and on down the hill, then pull out onto the main road. I could tell the launch acceleration was way down. Not a bad thing cos economy settings are often underwhelming, though the top-end was still viable. Hit a bump and lost all Throttle; dead in the water. WTF? :cry: Well – when this happens it’s typically the eBrake – and it was, only now the eBrake microswitch had lifted off the mounting. Arrrg! :x I grabbed the little leaf-part of the micro-switched and squeezed: Throttle returns ~ yea! :D OK – one hand on the throttle and one finger on the leaf-switches and try to turn around AND engage mechanical brake with other fingers to fight my way back to the hidden urban Bat cave.
  • It turns out there is more wrong than just a buggered eBike/Stop-light switch: My running light (aka Taillight) is also out. Now I have to tear into the whole belly of the beast to trace this out. Finally found the break right where the signals fork to go to the Trailer connector; broken solder joint.
  • Also all auxiliary voltages were periodically going out during this time. Crapola: Traced that to a cold-solder joint that enabled Aux power on the DC-DC converter.
  • Next – tried to superglue the microswitch pairs back onto the brake. Wouldn’t take, so I clamped it. This worked fine but now the switches were dead from compression. Grrrr. :x Pull the switches off. I have replacements as roller-leafs. This is about the 4th time the micro-switches have pulled off the brake lever. Resolved to use the two-hole mount – but I don’t have screws small enough. What to do? OK – mother of invention kicks in: I had some extra spokes and they fit the holes. Took the broken switch and using it as a template, drilled two holes into the brake lever. Next, took two good switches and as guides ran the spokes through them (butted ends up and threads down) and sorted out how they would integrate into the brake lever; it’s almost a tight fit mainly cos the drilling was slightly imprecise and creating tension – which is good. Pull this assembly out, apply superglue to the holes and surfaces, and reinsert the switches/spokes making sure the threads are in the holes; the mounting takes! Superglued the second switch down on top of the first. Took a cable-cutter and trimmed off the protruding spokes; it left a 1/8” high nub and I ground that off and filed it down nice. More superglue into the mounting holes; suck it up bugger! Now we have a firm fix on the little f@#ker. Tested the swithes – they are a little flakey. Grrrr. :x Test test and more test. OK, I think it will work so I solder them up, heat shrink, wrap tape, and test: nuttin. Arrrg! Test test and more test – finally they work.
  • Hook up the bike, put everything back together except the front faring and go test. Nuttin works. More hair falls out – and I only have three skinny hairs on this pointy head. Fiddle about fiddle about fiddle about – finally switches work… some of the time. Go for road test, up the hill (economy-level kinda sucks compared to yesterday). Then the controller kinda figures out “Hey, I got an ebrake!” and begins to work consistently. I swear to all the sacrificial barleys that I have consumed in the past week that these controllers have two more brain cells than me and are conspiring to frustrate my process. I think we need to sacrifice more barleys tonight.
  • Did the horseshoe loop up the hill and down and back up again (it really is a good torture test); everything seems back to normal… except the Time: It’s now 5:30 PM and I have lost the initiative of the afternoon. :cry:
Image
D'is is da pesky critter after rework. The two "posts" that secure it to the brake casing are just beneath the electrical tape.

Da Plan
  • The tentative plan is to try and leave on Thursday. Wheel wasn’t built today but should be ready after lunch. Regroup for tomorrow: Machinist, Seattle Fabrics, Gregg’s Cycles. Hopefully Machinist will take one day; we only need to replace the ghetto rear torque arms and fix the Hitch so we can mount it to the rear hub.
  • Modify the Timbuk2 to accept a sling; maybe two hours.
  • Build the rear battery bags; keep it basic. Just reviewed what I did last year; I had a metal framework made up to hold the batteries together inside the Ortlieb bags; these can be reused. I may even try to put them in the new Ortliebs – though if so then then need another strap to keep them from flopping around. I think I can make something work here without a lot of trouble.
  • Trailer should go back together quickly now since it’s just pieces that I cut and marked as I went; assembly likely Wednesday. Load up with static weight and test test test.
Battery Wiring

Code: Select all

Location			Batts	 Wyes	Status	 Notes			
Front Triangle-L	9		3		Done				
Front Triangle-R	9		3		Done				
Front Saddle-L	 6		 2		covered	Trailer is strung for 36 batteries/side; 			
Front Saddle-R	 6		 2		covered	That's 3x4 wyes x 2 = 24 wyes.			
Rear-L				12		4		covered	Trunk bag is strung for 2x3 wyes.			
Rear-R				12		4		covered	Conclusion: Prune the branches to make new harnesses.			
Trailer-L			12		4		covered	We have enough APPs to do this, though 2 short on 45A lugs.			
Trailer-R			12		4		covered	Note to Self: Self - stop at Vetco to see if they have 45A lugs.			
								
Total				 78						
OK – that’s a good plan. I am still partly packed so time is saved there.

My two brain cells are in collusion to have me to: Relax, Don’t Worry – Have a Homebrew! I think I’ll go and do just that. :wink:
Gremlins be gone! KF
EDIT: Added photies
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

Lemlux   100 W

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by Lemlux » Jul 19 2011 12:14pm

KF:

You've finally persuaded me not to make a trailer out of my 1993 Giant 770 AX 16" Chromoly frame. I wouldn't have the skill, patience, or funding to do all you've done.
giant_frame.jpg
giant_frame.jpg (9.32 KiB) Viewed 3598 times
I do have an idea, though: I could give you this frame and you could weld it mounted parallel to the ground as a stabilizer platform for the bottom of your trailer. It's yours for free if you pay shipping.

You might even use one or both of the dropouts to reinforce the pivot for your front-leaning trailer arm.

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Kingfish   10 GW

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by Kingfish » Jul 20 2011 1:44am

Lemlux wrote:KF:

You've finally persuaded me not to make a trailer out of my 1993 Giant 770 AX 16" Chromoly frame. I wouldn't have the skill, patience, or funding to do all you've done.
giant_frame.jpg
I do have an idea, though: I could give you this frame and you could weld it mounted parallel to the ground as a stabilizer platform for the bottom of your trailer. It's yours for free if you pay shipping.

You might even use one or both of the dropouts to reinforce the pivot for your front-leaning trailer arm.
:lol: Yeah, I like that idea :lol:

Tuesday July 19th: Git’r Done!
Today was a busy day; got some much needed rest after a night of chasing… I bet you were gonna say chasing skirts huh? Nope; I was chasing after sacrificial barleys! Anyways – slept well cos I’ve been stressed out lately.
  • Called Gregg’s Cycle and they said that the 24” wheel would be ready near the end of the day.
  • Finally got out the door at half-past Noon. Stopped at Radio Shack and bought four Submini Lever Switches as backups for my eBrake and Brake Light.
    Image
  • Stopped at Ace Hardware and picked up two bronze bushings, ½ x 1” for $3 each, and a pair of matching washers.
    Image
  • Went directly to the Machinist and dropped off my parts. We discussed the torque arms and he told me that the mills were tied up for a few days, so I axed that work as not optimum but also not essential. He did say though that the bushings could be finished by EOD. On the return trip I picked up the finished parts: The bushings were modified to match to a 14mm threaded axle and machined down to slip inside my hitch brackets. It took ¾ of an hour on the lathe. The parts are a tight fit inside the hitch but slip on over the threaded axle nicely. Gone is the Delrin. We’re after a firm tight fit. Here’s a picture of the left and right hitch brackets with the bushings mounted – flange facing out. I like this setup; mucho happy puppy. :D
    Image
  • Topped off the charge at the Machinist and headed out to Seattle Fabrics in the Greenlake district. Got as far as I-405/116th in Kirkland when the chain locked up on the bike. WTF? :x Couldn’t find anything wrong so I kept going – only to be halted again 20 feet later; complete lockup now – can’t spin the crank forward or back. I figured that the freewheel was synched up next to the frame and that I required one more washer to space it out. Bummed, I drove on electricity all the way back to Redmond ruing the moment the entire way; it felt unmanly. :oops:
  • Began to take the wheel off when I noticed that the reason the chain was locked up was because the rear derailleur Dropout mounting screw and lost the bolt-part and the flush “screw” part was jammed into the freewheel, locking the chain. That was easy to remove. Called Gregg’s and they assured me they had replacements. 2 points for Gregg’s. :D
  • Since I had the left-side ghetto torque arm off, I replaced the soft cold rolled steel (CRS) with a ¾ x ¾ x 1/8 Aluminum 6061-T6 L-Angle which is vastly stronger. I think it makes a nice footrest don’t you? It requires flat black paint to hide the magpie effect, and maybe the clamp too.
    Image
  • Topped off the charge and headed back to the Machinist at 5 PM. Picked up my nice parts and headed off to Gregg’s. It’s now 6 PM and John had finished building the wheel but not the tire, so Travis did that part and I guided him on how I wanted it armored: Layer of Stop-Flats 2 on the rim, covered with a layer of Velox tape, then tube, then Stop-Flats 2 on the perimeter, then tire. Done.
    Image
  • Next, John had promised to fix my other bike issues but had to clock-out; Jimmy took over. Disc Brake Rotors Front and Back: Both Jimmy and Travis worked these discs over to true them up with me keenly observing their technique, and got the bike to where I had full-brake at 50% lever which was a vast improvement! I also bought the Park Tool Rotor Truing Fork DT-2.
    Image
    Then we paid attention to my derailleurs and Jimmy got them both in spec and tuned up, and finished with a lubed chain. Finished by 8 PM closing. My wheel build, tire-mounting, fixing the brakes and derailleurs, plus the Park Tool came to just over $100: What a deal! Oh and the Dropout screw was tossed in for free. Neat guys! The bike flies down the road!!
The only item I don’t care for on this new confirguration is the hard braking of the Regen. If I had more time, I’d like to tinker up a circuit that allows me to progressively add Regen through the Throttle like my old controller. Lyen says there’s a way to do it but we need to mod R12 – presumably in a dynamic manner. :idea:

What’s next:
Well, I really want to leave on Thursday. I thought about how to resolve the battery bag issue with materials on hand; maybe use the 1000 Denier Cordura instead. Going to Seattle Fabrics now would cost me ½ day there and back. I’d rather have that time for integration and testing. I think then that will be The Plan.

We’ll know for certain in the next 24 hours. KF :D
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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Kingfish   10 GW

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by Kingfish » Jul 20 2011 11:18pm

Wednesday, July 20, 2011
Close, very close… Optimistic Test Drive


Today I busied myself with getting the trailer assembled to a point where testing could be accomplished. This took a bit longer than anticipated.
  • The Hitch Bracket – now with the bronze bearing is slightly wider due to the flange and washer, AND the hub axle in shorter than my custom axle (now mounted on the Trailer). Took a while to sort out the absolute minimum washers that could go on to the axle. As it turned out, I didn’t use washers. Instead I used the flat file and leveled the surfaces of the stamped-steel torque arms and put them on first, then the bronze washer, then the hitch bracket, and finally the nut; that’s all the room there was, and no threads left to spare. This was all tightened down and then I worked it over making sure the nut would not back out.

    Image
    Right side rear stamped steel torque arm, modified to miss the rear derailleur mounting.
  • Also I removed the EBikeKit torque arm cos it was pointing in a direction that was not useful. Instead I used a modified stamped-steel torque arm, leveled on both sides, and then cut out a link from Aluminum angle and fabricated the clamp. These items were planted flat black and heat cured in the oven one the paint was dry.
  • In parallel to this, I would alternate to the trailer and put the unit back together again sans the faring. Really – those are the two big ticket items other than mounting the trailer to the hitch which took time to set correctly.
Prepping for the Test Drive
About 4 PM I started calculating what I needed to do here. Much of my stuff is still packed, so choosing a load was easy. The Timbuk2 bags were stuffed with 6 batteries each and temporarily saddled over the front of the bike. The Ortliebs were loaded out with 12 batteries on each side just like I did last year using the same pieces of framework and paneling. Then I added a 3 lb. free weight to each side to mimic the charger and some food. Next the trailer was loaded with 12 batteries on each side – forward inside the boxes, and down some bags of clothes. Grabbed a yellow Ortlieb and stuffed two frozen gallons of water inside and strapped that in the forward section over the center and on top of the clothes to simulate the maximum about of crap that I could probably take. Here’s the weight chart:

Code: Select all

Where		 Type		  Amount		Total	F/R Tot	Comments		
Trailer	  Batteries	12			 15.24				
Trailer	  Gallons	  2			  16.6				
Trailer	  Clothes	  2			  4		 35.84		Trailer Total		
L/R Rear	 Batteries	24			 30.48				
L/R Rear	 Weights	  2			  6		 36.48		Rear; Simulate charger and food		
L/R Front	Batteries	18			 22.86				 Already loaded in Triangle		
L/R Front	Batteries	12			 15.24	38.1		Front		
							
Total						110.42
Bike only					74.58
The total weight is about 10 lbs. over what I expect. After strapping it all down temporarily I headed out for a test drive at 6:30 PM.

Image

No faring; just a go-no-go test.

Image

Toolboxes contain 12 batteries shoved all the way to the left (forward). Orange bags are heavy clothes. The yellow Ortlieb had two gallons of frozen water inside.

Test Drive
Decided to head up the hill. The bike lugged heavily. I fear that I must reprogram some current back into the controllers to get more horsepower. Once near the top the bike picked up speed just fine. Handling was good going up and down the hill. On the flat, wobbling can be induced by the rider.

I headed down the horseshoe – braking at first, then slowing allowing more speed then braking, several times before reaching the bottom. I was very satisfied with the brake work done yesterday; between the eBrake and the double-discs, stopped in not a challenge and the trailer does not swing around. Still unsure about flat and level riding, I gingerly drove into town, though taking right turns and eventually winding up climbing the backside ridge of Redmond also known as Education Hill. Very steep and winding rural roads had me on my toes keeping the bike stable at low speeds.

Eventually I wound up on the main route back into town and going faster and faster. Though I really had to watch it cos I could induce a wobble if distracted. Part of me wants to remove more batteries from the bike and place them on the trailer, though I fear this could exasperate the known problems. Another thought was to rearrange the battery packing so that they are closest to the front-to-rear centerline, reducing the lever (moment) and hopefully the wobble. The ride concluded with one of the hubs dropping out at a stop-light; I had to make a quick stop when the light changed suddenly. Acceleration was off, and I couldn’t climb the hill back home. Both wheels spin though with throttle, so I don’t know if it’s a controller issue yet (FET?). The total test drive was 5.8 miles with an elevation gain of 459 feet. On the whole I consider the ride an optimistic albeit limited success.

I am going to take one more day to evaluate whether I can use the trailer or not; more testing required.

What’s left to do:
  • Fabricate the saddle bags connective link.
  • Create battery bags for the trailer; just a simple sling where I can pull the whole lot out to make the trailer lighter. The plan is to pull the saddle bags and the Ortliebs off the ebike to make it lighter for stowing. The trailer could be unloaded quickly as well cos my clothes and stuff are already bagged; we just need to bag (or sling) the batteries as well.
  • Finish up the batteries cabling; prune the existing cables and add connectors.
Summary
We are getting there. Just need a bit finer tuning. There is still a chance to make the trip. I am concerned about the power consumption; means I’ll need to go slower to save energy or break up the trip into more days. Moving the hub motor to the eBike offset some of the wobbling, but did not eliminate it. I don’t think there is a viable way to do that though with Aluminum frames.

Zonked out and tired after the ride. KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

jonathanm   10 kW

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by jonathanm » Jul 20 2011 11:35pm

You need to try and figure out if ALL the wobble is coming from the flex in the frame, or if there are other factors involved. Is there any slop anywhere in the hitch? If it IS purely due to flex in the frame, then the only solution is to increase stiffness with some more material....welded triangle ideally, but even bolting some thing with a lot of torsional stiffness might help as a "get you going" temp solution. You don't have any 80/20 aluminum extrusion lying around do you?

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Kingfish   10 GW

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Re: On the Road: Going to California: 2011

Post by Kingfish » Jul 21 2011 12:07am

jonathanm wrote:You need to try and figure out if ALL the wobble is coming from the flex in the frame, or if there are other factors involved. Is there any slop anywhere in the hitch? If it IS purely due to flex in the frame, then the only solution is to increase stiffness with some more material....welded triangle ideally, but even bolting some thing with a lot of torsional stiffness might help as a "get you going" temp solution. You don't have any 80/20 aluminum extrusion lying around do you?
The link between the two frames is tight. If I wobble the rear of the trailer, it will propagate through the entire length as one wave action very solidly. At least that part is good. The only extrusion that I have is the L-Angle Aluminum 6061-T6; ¾ x ¾ x 1/8 inch. It’s pretty sturdy.

The only part that doesn’t wobble per se is the front of the bike where I have the saddle bag; the steerer is the most stable part. It is definitely frame flex. The only way I could think to stiffen the trailer is with two channel plates that are wide enough to cover the top and bottom tube – but that defeats the weight reduction. A welded link between the two tubes would probably help quite a bit – but then we’re into TIG/MIG.
~KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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