Dewey Beats Truman

dogman dan

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Remember that one? Too funny yesterday, as the big news channels tried to scoop each other announcing the supreme court ruling on health care.

So sure what the court was going to do, several announced it early and guessed wrong. I just saw a complilation of what the late night comics did with that last night, and nearly puked I laughed so hard.

Why would facts matter on a news network?
 
dogman said:
Why would facts matter on a news network?

No real journalism anymore. It's all about ratings, advertisers, entertainment and attention grabbing headlines...

I don't like the Health Care plan because it didn't go far enough and was obviously manipulated by big Pharma and POS Insurance providers in the latter days of passage.

Profit off sick people = lowest of the low in my book. But, it's a start and maybe we can finally move away from the expensive and inefficient ER model of health care and just go see a doctor when needed.
 
Yeah, reminds me of some high school dates. Yuk, but better than no girl at all.

But the attitude of "what? you can't afford thousands out of your $15,000 a year income? " wasn't cutting it either. Makes me want to put every senator and congressman on a $1,200 budget, and let them try to live just one month on it. This law still asks the poor to pay too much I think.

I agree with the supreme court that the medicaid expansion couldn't be rammed down the states throat. But somehow, the legions of working poor need the basics. Be nice to be poor, and be able to get a broken arm fixed, get a physical, get antibiotics for an infection, get your teeth cleaned, get a cavity filled. I don't ask for cancer treatment for the poor, just the basics would be great.
 
Premature Evacuation.

No love lost for CNN or Faux.
 
Yeah. The shout news channels. Remember the SNL skit, news for the deaf? I turn on local news to get the weather, and which local politician just got arrested. That's about it.
 
Ykick said:
Profit off sick people = lowest of the low in my book. But, it's a start and maybe we can finally move away from the expensive and inefficient ER model of health care and just go see a doctor when needed.

Huh? Obamacareless makes it's money off the HEALTHY, who are forced to pay for everything. The sick are getting it free, below cost, etc. Don't even start about what the people GETTING the healthcare shouldn't have to pay for, noone else should be forced to pay for it, period.

As for headlines, how about Tilden defeats Hayes? 30 electoral votes to spare, but the outgoing Republican lameduck majority in the House and Senate threw out the election and appointed their boy president, the first not elected. Nicknamed 'Rutherfraud,' he cut a deal with incoming Democrats from some southern states to prevent their new majority from reinstating the rule of law, the Supreme Court was also a majority of Republican appointees from 16 years of Lincoln, Johnson and Grant that did not uphold the constitution, just like they didn't uphold it this week. Hayes gained a single term as president. Most notable for establishing the tradition of kids rolling eggs across the White House lawn as an OFFICIAL Presidential function, rather than the neighborhood kids just sort of doing it. Also for the New York customs house corruption scandal that almost landed Chester Arthur in prison but, well, it wasn't long before he became vice president and then president. In the meantime it's estimated that Arthur lost some 90% of his income with the end of the Customs House graft for the final 4 years he held the job, judging from the decline in the deposits to his bank account. When James Garfield ran for president, he needed Arthur as running mate to please the openly corruption faction of his party, called 'Stalwarts,' leading to the president and vice president elect fighting among themselves when Garfield insisted on appointing honest people on their merits. All of this was covered in the press as it was occuring. But people don't learn what happened in the past, they don't learn what's happening in the present; when it's time to pay the price in the future they'll never learn from their mistakes.

Then there's the landslide vote for incumbent Grover Cleveland making headlines for his reelection. But darn, somehow the popular vote didn't match up with the electoral college, he had to come back 4 years later and carry the popular vote a 3rd time to serve a 2nd term. He's called the 22nd and 24th president.
 
I'm sorry but whenever people start with the "ObamaCare" language my eyes tear up and I wind up on the floor in hysterical laughter. If the lack of affordable healthcare wasn't such a serious issue I'd thank you for the comic relief.

Didn't we try the be afraid, be very afraid angle with the last White House? I would like to believe that if people could set aside the conservative, liberal, democrat, republican, libertarian labels and just be Americans for change maybe something useful would happen? But, that's not very good entertainment news, now is it?
 
Ykick said:
Didn't we try the be afraid, be very afraid angle with the last White House?

"Try?" I think it was Yoda that said 'Do, or do NOT. There is no 'Try.' Dang, did ever so much of America happily embrace his fear thing, just as they did his father's fear thing, Reagan's fear thing, Nixon, Eisenhower. . . . We've had 3 1/2 years of Obama demanding we fear with you doing your best there to spread some of it and his fans fearing mostly that reality will set in; what I'm most afraid of is the failed haughtiness of your post, i get so tired of the Obamatable shooting their mouth off into their feet. Why do so many Obama supporters so love the sound of fingernails on the chalkboard? When Obama vanishes, posts like your vanish with it. The thinking people like myself will go right on thinking.

If the lack of economic sanity wasn't far more important than all the obfuscations about "Affordable" healthcare, I'd say 'Hey, you have a credit card, nothing is stopping you from going to the hospital and paying everyone's else's bills except your own lack of commitment to your rhetoric.

Another thing Obamacare has given us to fear is what they did to poor Kevin. Masters in Math, can't get a fulltime teaching job; he has to piece together a few community colleges and a Cal State letting him teach a single class here and there. Can't buy a house, doesn't get full credit toward his pension. At least there's some contribution to his health insurance, I'm sure it's not paid in full.

But oh, his tonsilectomy. Under Obamacare they get to charge him $20,000. Yes We Can punish you for having health insurance. Hope you survive the experience. The problem is his insurance only pays 80% of the price of the $4,000 procedure, the fact that they're allowed to average in all the unpaid bills of others isn't part of his coverage. I hadn't understood what some of that verbage was supposed to mean, I guess we weren't supposed to. Think of all the money he'd have saved without insurance under Obamacare.

At least Eisenhower's fear mongering brought us the rise of mainstream Science Fiction, the literature of anxiety. Nixon's taught us to look at the source, as we need to do now with with Obama. Anyone who can tout 'The constitution isn't here to protect you from me, only to protect me from you,' needs a good looking at. (The whole point of the line "Congress shall pass no law. . . ." IS to protect us from the Obamas of the world.) As all his followers insist they will refuse to see anything, they keep opening their eyes to the sound of me saying "Made you look. . . ."
 
As a foreign observer I just don't get the fuss about "Obamacare", I concede I don't understand the nuances of the particular debate, and I don't even understand the issues relating to its Constitutional validity or otherwise, but I just find the whole fear of "socialised medicine" an absolute hoot. You guys got it so wrong by not having "socialised medicare". In Australia you can go to a doctor anytime you like and if you are happy to wait for a Dr that bulk bills, you can pay next to nothing for your appointment. If you are on healthcare benefits (eg you are on the pension or low income/unemployed) your medication is basically free. That entire system (what we call Medicare) costs about 4% of our total budget expenditure.

Having recieved medical treatment in both the US and Australia, and having had children born in Australia, whilst my brother had children born in the US, I can attest that our medical system is better. That doesn't mean we have the best and most brilliant surgeons, I just mean in terms of consistent quality of care and what it costs.

I just think it is hilarious that there are people who don't think that basic healthcare is a fundamental human right, and should be offered as at a mimimum level of a safety net in any civilised society.
 
Philistine said:
I just think it is hilarious that there are people who don't think that basic healthcare is a fundamental human right, and should be offered as at a mimimum level of a safety net in any civilised society.

In the USA we have a lot of pre-programmed right-wing anuses like Dauntless who are OK with corporations extorting profits from people's suffering, but angry at those who suffer and need help. They are the same jerks who get bent out of shape at unionized workers trying to make $50,000 a year at their jobs, but seem to have no problem with executives making ten, a hundred, or a thousand times as much.

I think there are a raft of problems with PPACA, but poor folks getting subsidized health care when they need it is not one of them. It's like everybody's kid being able to go to school regardless of their ability to pay the cost of schooling-- it just makes sense from a cost/benefit standpoint. We'll have to wait and see if poor people actually get health care. It seems certain that low/moderate income folks (the ones who can't afford health insurance now) will soon be forced to pay for guaranteed profits to health insurance companies; whether they'll be able to exercise any practical benefits is still unclear.

Chalo
 
Same sort of arguments I used to have with Safe about the economy. He just couldn't understand the POV of somebody who had been the working poor.

Both parties are the same way, few have actually experienced poverty. One thing about Lyndon Johnson, he had been fairly poor growing up and got it.

Expanding medicaid would help, believe me you are really really poor long before you reach the line of "poverty level" and get medicaid. That got struck down though. :roll:

So now the working poor will get shafted again, and pay a tax for being poor. IMOP, they frocked it up. But maybe the fight it starts will get something better to be done later. I just hope to see the glass at least a tad more than half full. It certianly is a mess now. But at least a few things got fixed that make it possible for a few folks to even get health insurance at all.
 
dogman said:
Expanding medicaid would help, believe me you are really really poor long before you reach the line of "poverty level" and get medicaid.
here in AZ, even if you are below that you still can't get help, unless you are a woman, or you have kids. A single white male like me can't get even emergency healthcare or financial help from the state anymore--they changed it last year and wrote us all out. (yet there are people that have more kids solely so they can get more state money, and at least some that cheat the system in various ways such as claiming kids that aren't theirs (and that they aren't taking care of) as their own to get the money they are "worth").

I've tried every avenue I could find and was turned down by every one of them because I don't have any human dependents. I'm sure I'm not the only one out there that can't even afford basic healthcare because of that.

I don't know how this new plan will affect me, but I expect that wherever possible it'll be manipulated to exclude me and others lke me from getting any help from it, while making me pay into it funds I cannot afford.

(sorry for the "rant"; it's a touchy subject for me, after going thru all the hoops I've had to go thru for years, first for my mom and then my sisters, each with some measure of success, and then finally needing help myself and being flatly denied any, for the stupidest reason I can think of. )
 
Yeah, I remember when I was a starving student and trying to get food stamps. My brother had gotten them when he was in school. Married, his wife worked and so they had more money than I did and got the food. Me, just a swinging dick, could not qualify at all on less than half the income. Guess the idea was that working my way through colledge was my own stupid choice. I could educate or eat.

People have no idea how many peoples second job is some kind of criminal activity because of that type of rule.
 
"Let me get this straight . . .

We’re going to be “gifted” with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don’t! Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn’t understand it, passed by a Congress that didn’t read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a Dumbo President who smokes, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn’t pay his taxes, for which we’ll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese , and financed by a country that’s broke!!!!!

‘What the hell could possibly go wrong?"

- Donald Trump

"The scariest words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help you.'" - Reagan

“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand” - Milton Friedman

“There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

This point above may help you to understand why many of us are opposed to this idea Philistine. It really doesn't matter how good something is, if you are forcing someone to do it then it's tyranny.

If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom.
- Dwight D. Eisenhower
 
Like the Eisenhower quote. People do that. Go to prison to get health care.

Don't ask me what the solution is though, I don't know. I just thought it was funny that shouting news announced the supreme courts decision before the court did.
 
This point above may help you to understand why many of us are opposed to this idea Philistine. It really doesn't matter how good something is, if you are forcing someone to do it then it's tyranny.

In general I consider myself a libertarian, and so I respect the general thrust of your point, I too share the view that the worst individual is better than the best committee, but personally I think there are some exceptions to that rule. Health care and education are two things that I personally think should always be state funded, the reason I see them as different to other areas are that in addition to being fundamental human rights, the amenity and benefit that flow from them are both integral to the fabric of the society itself, and they need to be shaped and formed by the nation at large in their implementation and delivery. I only feel that way about education and health, everything else I think the government should do its utmost to get out of the way of.

I also think sometimes people don't appreciate the implications of the Hayek quote "the government should build roads, not tell people where to go", in this case I believe that healthcare IS the roads. Making healthcare a state responsibility is the building of the road. When we build roads we have to interfere with peoples property rights, and expropriate land on fair terms (to build the roads), and sometimes that upsets certain individuals but we accept it as being for the greater good. That is how I feel about healthcare, it is for the greater good, and just like major infrastructure like roads, it is a burden that should be borne by all.

I really think that Americans should come over and see our medical system (or that of Canada or the UK - although the UK might even be too generous) and I think they would change their tune. As I said, the Medicare system in Australia is about 4% of budget, it is trifling, yet it means that we can all know that as far as necessary medical treatment goes, all our fellow citizens are cared for. I am happy to have my "freedom" violated in that way so I can sleep easier at night knowing my fellow citizens aren't suffering without medical care.
 
The UK health care system costs us a small fortune in taxes, but as we've had it for so long now (since before I was born, and I'm now retired) everyone has pretty much got used to the cost. I don't think you'd find anyone here in the UK that would want to go back to a system where health care was a luxury high cost item, priced out of the pockets of the less well off. Over my working life I've probably paid around 4 or 5% of my income, before tax, into the health care part of our National Insurance scheme and around the same again into the part that will provide me with a modest state pension (which in my case is on top of the pension I get from my own pension scheme now and isn't payable until I'm 65).

Some may argue as to how good the benefits we get are compared to the cost, but the fact is I can be absolutely certain of getting the health care I need, pretty much when I need it, at no cost to me. This extends as far as dentistry, too, although they do levy a small charge for dental work (I typically pay the equivalent of bit over $25 for an average visit to the dentist). I know that if I fall ill, no matter what with or from what cause, I'll get treatment and won't have to pay for it. Unfortunately, many people in other parts of the world know we have this free health care system, so come here specifically to take advantage of it (we're not really geared up here to collect money from people for health care at the point of use).

I've only once needed medical treatment when in the US, nothing that serious but it did mean a visit to the ER. I was a bit taken aback at having to produce a credit card before being treated, although was able to claim the money back from my employer when I got home. The thing that struck me more than anything else was how medical care was really just another (very big) business in the US, rather than a caring service aimed at keeping people healthy and treating them as needed.
 
What many in the US don't realize, is that if they have any form of insurance, they are paying for others' care (if they themselves are healthy). It's called distributed risk and it is the cost effective form of risk-management.

Insurance companies do not add value to health care. Insurance companies' primary concern is profit - extracting as much capital and paying for as little care as possible. The profit they extract could easily care for the uninsured.

It is a model of health care faced with the "spiral of death": As they extract profit, rates rise - as rates rise, more people can't afford the premiums - the more people opt out, the more rates will rise, etc.etc.

Health care costs will rise. The ACA can and will help keep the costs from rising as fast.


RomneyCare is working in Massachusetts:

The federal Affordable Care Act is set to kick in fully by 2014, now that the US Supreme Court has affirmed that it is constitutional. The Massachusetts reforms upon which the ACA is based took effect in 2006, under then-Gov. Mitt Romney. So, what does the record show in Massachusetts – did jobs evaporate and is the state bankrupt, as critics portended? Or is the Bay State rather an example of health-care nirvana, as supporters predicted?

Neither extreme is true, and the lessons of Massachusetts may not all apply in the broader national context. But overall, the state is doing pretty well under its reform law, say those who have studied its effects upon residents, businesses, and state coffers.

For one, about 400,000 additional people are newly covered by health insurance, bringing down the share of uninsured residents from 7.4 percent in 2004 to 1.9 percent by 2010, according to the Massachusetts Division of Health Care Finance and Policy. Massachusetts now has the highest percentage of insured residents among all the states.

Costs to the state are also within original estimates, according to the Massachusetts Taxpayers Foundation, contrary to claims by former Sen. Rick Santorum (R) of Pennsylvania that health-care reform was “bankrupting Massachusetts.”

But the state isn’t a perfect demonstration lab for national reform.

The Massachusetts law is funded differently from the federal one. The state didn’t need to increase income taxes to pay for it – most funding for the new law came from the federal government as part of Medicaid, and from shifting around state funds, says John McDonough, a professor at the Harvard School of Public Health.

Critics say that although Massachusetts residents didn't have to pick up much of the tab for reform, the ACA will have more of a negative impact due to tax increases. “The cost that Massachusetts was able to push off onto the federal government will go to taxpayers [under the ACA],” says David Tuerck, an economics professor and executive director of the Beacon Hill Institute, a fiscally conservative think tank.

Still, the state’s law and the national law have many similarities.

In Massachusetts, if you don’t buy health insurance, you pay a fine – as will happen under the ACA. When the law first passed, noncompliers lost the personal exemption on state income taxes. In 2008, the state started charging a fine of half the cost of the cheapest plan that could be found under the Massachusetts Health Connector, the state’s version of the insurance exchanges intended to help consumers shop and compare plans.

Though a penalty can now run to $1,200 or more, “it has been remarkably noncontroversial,” says Professor McDonough.

That may be because the state has been lenient in applying those penalties. People who make too much money to be eligible for subsidized coverage but say they still can’t afford insurance can apply for a waiver, which is also available for those who don’t want coverage because of religious beliefs.

In 2010, Massachusetts granted 55 percent of waiver requests for a premium or copay reduction, according to data from the Connector annual report to the legislature.

Since the reform was signed into law in 2006, “the requirement that everybody has health insurance has become a pretty normal part of the way we do things around here,” says McDonough.

Even so, critics argue that the Massachusetts reform hurts business. The state would have created 18,000 more jobs in 2010 without the reform, according to the Beacon Hill Institute. That isn't a huge impact in a state that employs more than 3 million people, says Professor Tuerck, but extrapolated to a national scale, job losses may be more important.

Tuerck argues that reforms not only taxed people by forcing them to buy coverage, but that they also made insurance rates rise. “The bill imposed new costs both on the federal government and on people who had insurance policies in Massachusetts, and we found that the cost of private health insurance had gone up because of Romneycare,” he says. This could be interpreted as having the same effect as a tax increase, which he says has a negative impact on job growth.

Still, according to Beacon’s Hill’s state competitiveness report on March 6, Massachusetts is the top state in the country for economic growth and income.

Massachusetts health care is also often criticized for being too expensive: The premiums are higher than anywhere else in the country.

McDonough argues that although those figures are correct, they don’t give the full picture. “You get a revealing portrait when you look at it based on ability to pay,” he says. Massachusetts premiums are higher, but so is household income – and when measured as a percentage of income, health insurance is cheaper in Massachusetts than in Texas, which has the highest share of uninsured residents in the nation.

Moreover, the high-priced premiums in Massachusetts predate the state's health-care reform law, McDonough says. Although health-care costs are increasing everywhere, the rate of increase has slowed significantly in Massachusetts in the past two years.

“Don’t assume we’re a basket-case on costs,” says McDonough. “We’re probably better off than you are."


By Kevin Loria | Christian Science Monitor
 
That was an interesting article.

What many in the US don't realize, is that if they have any form of insurance, they are paying for others' care (if they themselves are healthy). It's called distributed risk and it is the cost effective form of risk-management.

Insurance companies do not add value to health care. Insurance companies' primary concern is profit - extracting as much capital and paying for as little care as possible. The profit they extract could easily care for the uninsured.

It is a model of health care faced with the "spiral of death": As they extract profit, rates rise - as rates rise, more people can't afford the premiums - the more people opt out, the more rates will rise, etc.etc.

Health care costs will rise. The ACA can and will help keep the costs from rising as fast.

That is exactly why I think healthcare and education should be state provided/funded.

Although I am sure our public Medicare system could be run in a far more efficient and effective way if it was a privately funded insurance system, that is not what I want it to do. I want it to focus on the health outcomes and needs of its citizens.

Obviously you have to be business like about certain things and draw the line at certain things (for example, in Australia we don't cover dental with Medicare, because we have determined it would be too expensive for the system, that is an example of an arbitrary line drawing on cost), but I want the model for my society's healthcare to be designed in this order: 1) what do we consider to be fundamental types of healthcare that all citizens should have a right to? 2) collect enough tax to fund the provision of those services 3) implement them. Exactly as TylerDurden puts it, when healthcare is provided by private insurers, the model looks like this 1) what services do we have to make out like we offer to consumers to get them to pay 2) charge enough to offer the bare minimum we have to under the contract and also make a profit; 3) start cutting away and where possible get out of having to provide things we actually said we would 4) make as much profit as possible.

The same thing applies to education, and personally I consider that healthcare and education are so fundamental and entwined in the very values and nature of a society that I prefer the former model than the latter.
 
Philistine said:
Exactly as TylerDurden puts it, when healthcare is provided by private insurers, the model looks like this 1) what services do we have to make out like we offer to consumers to get them to pay 2) charge enough to offer the bare minimum we have to under the contract and also make a profit; 3) start cutting away and where possible get out of having to provide things we actually said we would 4) make as much profit as possible.

This is exactly what we've found here during the attempts to introduce a mix of private (insurance funded in the main) and public (state funded) health care. The idea was to reduce the costs of state provided health care, but the reality is that the private healthcare providers don't want to provide the most costly treatment, like emergency care, care of the elderly, care of those with mental impairment etc, as there's no money in it. Instead what we see are private healthcare providers cherry picking the profitable elements (elective surgery, sports injuries, cosmetic work) and refusing to go near anything that has any sort of commercial risk. Can't blame them, they're in it to make money, lot's of it if the US system is anything to go by.
 
dogman said:
Like the Eisenhower quote. People do that. Go to prison to get health care.

Don't ask me what the solution is though, I don't know. I just thought it was funny that shouting news announced the supreme courts decision before the court did.

As I understand what happened, it wasn't that they announced the decision before the court did. It was that in the rush to get the announcement out, they read the decision and saw that the mandate had been dis-allowed under the commerce clause argument. Which was true. Then they kept reading the decision and saw that it had been allowed as a tax. It was an error for sure, but not that hard to understand. Especially with the convoluted argument John Roberts made to justify the law. :evil:
 
StudEbiker said:
As I understand what happened, it wasn't that they announced the decision before the court did. It was that in the rush to get the announcement out, they read the decision and saw that the mandate had been dis-allowed under the commerce clause argument. Which was true. Then they kept reading the decision and saw that it had been allowed as a tax. It was an error for sure, but not that hard to understand. Especially with the convoluted argument John Roberts made to justify the law.
"As Chief Justice John Roberts began reading his decision on the future of President Obama's health care overhaul, the CNN team inside the courtroom jumped the gun, believing that Roberts was saying the individual mandate was unconstitutional and would be overturned.

A producer inside the courtroom, Bill Mears, communicated the information to a relatively junior reporter, Kate Bolduan, the face of the network's coverage outside on the courthouse steps.

Bolduan then reported, on air, that the invidual mandate was “not valid,” citing producer Mears.

“It appears as if the Supreme Court justices struck down the individual mandate, the centerpiece,” of the law, she said."


http://www.buzzfeed.com/mhastings/cnn-news-staffers-revolt-over-blown-coverage
 
As I understand what happened, it wasn't that they announced the decision before the court did. It was that in the rush to get the announcement out, they read the decision and saw that the mandate had been dis-allowed under the commerce clause argument. Which was true. Then they kept reading the decision and saw that it had been allowed as a tax. It was an error for sure, but not that hard to understand. Especially with the convoluted argument John Roberts made to justify the law.

It's totally understable.

The textualist conservative judge when reading in the activist majority will necessarily lack certainty. How dare he? Certainty is always better, even when certainty is the certainty of the horror of what has been. :roll:
 
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