Dear America,

Talk about anything and everything here within reason.
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jonescg   1.21 GW

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Re: Dear America,

Post by jonescg » Dec 18 2012 8:20pm

Careful of the slippery slope argument, Luke ;) At least he could kill one or two people using these means before being brought down, not 26.

The law in Australia (federally made, state enforced) is that guns should be stored in a metal cabinet, which is fixed to a solid surface (usually a cement slab or brick wall) and done so with bolts which are not able to be undone from the outside.

Ammunition and bolts must be stored in a separate location with a separate security measure.

Not complying is a serious offence. If your hose is broken into and the guns are stolen and it's seen that you weren't storing them correctly, you will be fined.

It works pretty well I think.

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Re: Dear America,

Post by Grey beard » Dec 18 2012 8:32pm

When you are looking at stats, remember that they are including suicides in homicide statistics, and suicides exceed the death of others by gun. Still too f-ing many.
I did notice looking at the stats, that handguns far, far, exceeded all other means, and that other guns were about the same as knives. But it's the "other guns" that they are going after first. Is it because in a civil uprising that the long guns are the most effective? As long as I'm asking dumb questions, can ANYBODY explain to me why the SSA bought hundreds of thousands of rounds of .357 magnum hollowpoints? Or why they thought they were going to need them?
Last edited by Grey beard on Dec 18 2012 8:35pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dear America,

Post by full-throttle » Dec 18 2012 8:33pm

Not sure if anyone mentioned this already, but there was a mass shooting at Monash Uni after the Australian gun law was introduced. All the 6 hand guns were legally obtained. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monash_University_shooting
The guy is in mental hospital..

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Re: Dear America,

Post by regmeister » Dec 18 2012 8:46pm

The conspiracy theroists are hard at work I see.


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Re: Dear America,

Post by regmeister » Dec 18 2012 9:04pm

but noone says it like AJ


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Re: Dear America,

Post by salty9 » Dec 18 2012 9:06pm

People buying handguns should realize that the odds are that they will be used against a family member rather than an intruder. I knew 3 families with such fatalies and one where an intruder was killed. Grandpa spent some time in prison for manslaughter though.

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Re: Dear America,

Post by TylerDurden » Dec 18 2012 9:40pm

Grey beard wrote: As long as I'm asking dumb questions, can ANYBODY explain to me why the SSA bought hundreds of thousands of rounds of .357 magnum hollowpoints? Or why they thought they were going to need them?
From the AP:
The bullets are for Social Security's office of inspector general, which has about 295 agents who investigate Social Security fraud and other crimes, said Jonathan L. Lasher, the agency's assistant IG for external relations.

The agents carry guns and make arrests — 589 last year, Lasher said. They execute search warrants and respond to threats against Social Security offices, employees and customers.

Agents carry .357 caliber pistols, Lasher said. The bullets, which add up to about 590 per agent, are for the upcoming fiscal year. Most will be expended on the firing range.

Some bloggers have taken issue with the type of ammunition the agency is buying, questioning why agents need hollow-point bullets. Hollow-points are known for causing more tissue damage than other bullets when they hit a person because they expand when they enter the body.

The bullets, however, are standard issue for many law enforcement agencies, Lasher said, a fact confirmed by the directors of two law enforcement training centers.

"For practice ammunition, they do not have to be hollow-points, but hollow-points are the normal police round used for duty ammunition due to their ability to stop when they hit an object as opposed to going through it and striking more objects," said William J. Muldoon, president of the International Association of Directors of Law Enforcement Standards and Training.
More:
http://oig.ssa.gov/newsroom/blog/2012/0 ... rocurement
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Re: Dear America,

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 18 2012 10:25pm

So, the paraphrase the explanation, even social security likes to shoot/kill people.

TylerDurden wrote:
Grey beard wrote: As long as I'm asking dumb questions, can ANYBODY explain to me why the SSA bought hundreds of thousands of rounds of .357 magnum hollowpoints? Or why they thought they were going to need them?
From the AP:
The bullets are for Social Security's office of inspector general, which has about 295 agents who investigate Social Security fraud and other crimes, said Jonathan L. Lasher, the agency's assistant IG for external relations.

The agents carry guns and make arrests — 589 last year, Lasher said. They execute search warrants and respond to threats against Social Security offices, employees and customers.

Agents carry .357 caliber pistols, Lasher said. The bullets, which add up to about 590 per agent, are for the upcoming fiscal year. Most will be expended on the firing range.

Some bloggers have taken issue with the type of ammunition the agency is buying, questioning why agents need hollow-point bullets. Hollow-points are known for causing more tissue damage than other bullets when they hit a person because they expand when they enter the body.

The bullets, however, are standard issue for many law enforcement agencies, Lasher said, a fact confirmed by the directors of two law enforcement training centers.

"For practice ammunition, they do not have to be hollow-points, but hollow-points are the normal police round used for duty ammunition due to their ability to stop when they hit an object as opposed to going through it and striking more objects," said William J. Muldoon, president of the International Association of Directors of Law Enforcement Standards and Training.
More:
http://oig.ssa.gov/newsroom/blog/2012/0 ... rocurement
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Re: Dear America,

Post by mark5 » Dec 18 2012 10:31pm

590 rounds a year? Not much to use practicing.

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Re: Dear America,

Post by MikeFairbanks » Dec 18 2012 10:33pm

neptronix wrote:
etriker wrote:There is an armed guard at the local jewelry store.

Armed guards to protect the money and jewels and such.

Why not protect our children at school ?

All the crazy people and guns in our country. And they can walk into a school and no one is there that can protect them ? ? ?
Because a business will protect itself out of self interest. A person will, as well. Government does not have the same level of motive.

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40820669/ns ... M38sIM0WSo

Here's a pretty good example :lol:
If you want your kids well protected, and better yet, well educated.. a government school is not the place to send them, that's for sure.
Whoever made that illustration is ignorant to Newton's Laws of Motion. The inertia of those school buses is only matched by other school buses and 18-wheeler trucks. They are very much weighted on the bottom and so they aren't likely to tip, and the drivers are meticulous about safety.

The term "government schools" was coined by right wing radio, specifically Neil Boortz, a man who seems to have little compassion for anyone (hate radio host) and someone known to make racist comments.

A free public education is a huge contributor of the middle class, and I could spend days and days listing wonderful and successful people throughout the world who attended public schools throughout their entire lives, including Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, not to mention Jimmy Carter and others. MLK, Rosa Parks, and more.

I teach in public school, have children that attend private, public and home school. Each situation presents positives and negatives for each child, and children should be where they thrive best.

To claim that public, private or home schooling is best is no different than claiming that chocolate, strawberry or vanilla ice cream is best. Each is right for certain individuals.


To the guys claiming that teachers should be armed with guns: That simply won't work. The idea that a Kindergarten teacher is going to gather the kids around the calendar each morning to count, discuss shapes, put a little smiling sun on the day's square, and sing a few songs while wearing a gun strapped to her waist is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Heck, I teach fifth grade and I wouldn't wear one if I was told I could.

And Philistine said the same thing I'm telling people: the people who say we need more guns in society are never there when you need them. They claim that everyone carrying guns is the answer, but the mass murders keep on coming.

You guys don't understand what you're dealing with when someone goes on a killing spree like that. It's a wild animal. It's like looking up and seeing a grizzly bear coming at you and you have seconds to react. I don't care if you have a gun on your waist. You're not going to make it. That bear is going to tear you up, especially since you were completely unprepared.

These ladies were most likely smiling, helping kids put coats on the hooks, reading notes from parents, placing lunch boxes in the cubbies, and helping the little girls and boys. Most of the kids were talking non-stop about their exciting little worlds with anyone who will listen: the other kids, the teacher, the teacher's assistant, etc. They talked about the basketball game they played the night before, the movie they watched, the exciting holiday coming up, and much more.

The very last thing on anyone's mind was a shooter, even after the first gunshots. How many of you have actually heard gunshots in an area that you weren't expecting it? It takes the mind a long time to register what's going on. The element of surprise is huge, and the killer knows this. Those ladies didn't stand a chance, but they did the best they could and saved a lot of kids. Each hallway has about 200 children, which means 90 percent of the kids on that hallway were pushed or pulled to safety. Twenty didn't make it, which is twenty too many.

Armed teachers is (please pardon my blunt language) a stupid idea and it won't happen...ever.


Finally, (for this post): I am an American. I've lived here my whole life (44 years). I grew up in San Diego, have visited Los Angeles hundreds of times, been to Chicago, New York, Atlanta, Denver, Dallas, Miami, and just about every major city in America. I've been to Jamaica, the Bahamas, Honduras, Belize, and
countless times to the north, central and southern parts of Mexico.

Of the 50 states I have visited over 40 of them.

In my 44 years alive and living in the USA I've had many experiences firing guns. I've shot handguns of various calibers, shotguns, high-powered rifles (including the very gun model used in that massacre and an AK-47), and enjoyed shooting all of them....for fun.....at targets.


Now here's the good part: In my 44 years of life I have never once....ever....seen a human being point a gun at another human being. Not once. That means that, obviously, I have never seen anyone shoot at another human, which also means I've never seen anyone shot at or get shot.

I've seen it thousands of times on TV and in the movies, but I'm 44 and haven't ever seen a human being (in all the five or six nations I've visited) point a gun at another human being.


The USA is actually a pretty decent law-abiding place. There are pockets of total chaos here and there, mostly in the major cities, and we have strange and random gun violence (especially this year), but it's still exceptionally rare.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never witnessed gun violence, knife violence, blunt object violence (baseball bat, hammer, etc.).

I've seen fist fights, of course, and gotten clocked in the jaw a few times myself, but that's it.

In fact, the only person I ever watched die was my mother from cancer about twelve years ago. That's it.
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Re: Dear America,

Post by MikeFairbanks » Dec 18 2012 10:41pm

Oh, and I'd like to add this:

Talk to any police officer in America. Ask them these three questions. You answers 99% of the time will be as follows: Yes, no, and no.

1. Have you had to draw your gun and point it at someone?

2. Have you ever had to shoot anyone?

3. Has anyone ever shot at you?


Don't even bother asking them if they have been actually shot or have shot someone. You'll have a very difficult time finding a cop who says yes. And if you do, then try to find another. You're more likely to poop a diamond on any given day.


There's a reason that cops rarely shoot anyone. Those reasons are:

1. Gun battles don't happen nearly as often as people think they do.

2. They usually start and end before anyone really knows what the heck is going on and end long before the cops arrive (which in many cases is under five minutes in the USA).
Stay frosty

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Re: Dear America,

Post by Dauntless » Dec 19 2012 1:54am

MikeFairbanks wrote: Whoever made that illustration is ignorant to Newton's Laws of Motion. The inertia of those school buses is only matched by other school buses and 18-wheeler trucks. They are very much weighted on the bottom and so they aren't likely to tip, and the drivers are meticulous about safety.
Which is not to say that kids are never injured in bus crashes, but at least we know it'll take a strong wind to put it on its' side.

[quote}
The term "government schools" was coined by right wing radio, specifically Neil Boortz, a man who seems to have little compassion for anyone (hate radio host) and someone known to make racist comments.[/quote]

So you're saying that all we have to do is find a a Neil Boortz type who supports your own statements and that will automatically invalidate you. Afterall, there are many NONNeils out there who would say what he says, you're pretending you get to dismiss them all.

Why would you say St. John's Catholic Elementary schoolboy William Jefferson (Blythe) Clinton attended public schools throughout his entire life? I escaped catholic school hell just before my junior year ended, 15 months of public school was the 2nd best thing that could have happened to me after Dad's cancer being cured, (It wasn't) even ahead of Mom giving up drugs. (She didn't) Do you even know where Jimmy Carter, (Or his cousin June Carter Cash for that matter) Martin Luther King or Barack Obama went to school? That's another blunder that mutes you. You're just assuming reality will bend and alter to protect you, but it hasn't, has it? If you want to discuss these things, you need to discuss them in the real world, not your imagination.
You guys don't understand what you're dealing with when someone goes on a killing spree like that. It's a wild animal. It's like looking up and seeing a grizzly bear coming at you and you have seconds to react. I don't care if you have a gun on your waist. You're not going to make it. That bear is going to tear you up, especially since you were completely unprepared.
Well, they weren't on killing sprees, nonetheless I can say "Been there, done that." While it worked out for me, I'll make the point that there others there who could have helped but were deer in the headlights. NOT because they had dedicated themselves to a life of being warm and fuzzy, not all teachers have. (Especially Catholic school teachers.) Even the cops often fumble the ball in a big way during emergencies. The real issue of a teacher being ready to pack a gun and deal with an armed intruder is in their willingness to. I've listened to total lunatics talk peace love and understanding as though they believe their own indignance is going to stop an attacker. And I've watched Jane Pauley put that type on TV and pretend they were sane. . .
Armed teachers is (please pardon my blunt language) a stupid idea and it won't happen...ever.
(Except you and I both know it's already happening every day.)
Now here's the good part: In my 44 years of life I have never once....ever....seen a human being point a gun at another human being. Not once. That means that, obviously, I have never seen anyone shoot at another human, which also means I've never seen anyone shot at or get shot.
. . . .I have seen guns pointed at other human beings, and more, no I won't elaborate. I have heard the shots nearby, I've had bullets wiz over my head, etc. Never had a bullet hit me, but I was stabbed from behind as some sort of gang initiation that didn't even involve me while attending the Don Bosco Technical Institute in Rosemead, Ca., a place rife with gang and nongang violence when I was attending. Somebody stabbed the principal later. I'm not saying that makes me a bigger expert in safety that you, in fact it looks like I'm NOT safe, some of the time. I AM trying to say one individuals experiences don't form some sort of proof of an argument. I could turn around and argue that teachers need to be armed to protect themselves from students and offer examples, I was attacked in my classroom by a steroidal athlete having a whack attack (Boy was HE in for a shock) when I was teaching, was threatened by a similarly large drug dealer who came into my room to harass one of my students who was going straight and therefore no longer a customer, (While again showing why Dad called me 'Dauntless.') etc. Using one's own individual experiences as representative of the whole is not a good thing. But these things happened with the sort of speed you're talking about; noone should have their hands artificially tied in such a situation no matter how much some 3rd parties would feel more comfortable seeing them hung out to dry. In 'A Meeting with the Medusa,' Arthur C. Clarke depicts an astronaut listening to an attorney explain the "Prime Directive" of what an astronaut WON'T do on 'First Contact' with aliens; The astronaut responds 'So you're saying I have to let him eat me,' with which the attorney agrees.
The USA is actually a pretty decent law-abiding place. There are pockets of total chaos here and there, mostly in the major cities, and we have strange and random gun violence (especially this year), but it's still exceptionally rare.
All social problems are interrelated. A junkie steals, kills, hurts his kids, etc. Those kids see Dad drunk and Mom on recreational prescription prozac and see no reason they shouldn't go smoke a doob with the friends. People run around crying about their rights are violated at work, violated in the neighborhood, violated in all these ways and that noone takes them seriously about it; then they reelect a president that violated constitutional rights with Obamacare. The Domino Effect will always be in play. People will not only be angry about what happened to them, but they'll be angry about when they victimize someone else and that person complains. They'll be angry when they DON'T get away with victimizing someone else, when they just don't get their way. Not only will this be why there'll be more shooting, it'll be the excuse for doing nothing about it.

And not a single one of these new, self serving laws the lawmakers will be taking advantage of this to propose will have any chance of accomplishing anything. Because politicians aren't interested in real world solutions, they're only interested in their little fantasy worlds.
liveforphysics wrote:So, the paraphrase the explanation, even social security likes to shoot/kill people.
Would that be the deduction, or just the social security checks themselves?

By the way, pretty much any government agency that conducts investigations that lead to prosecutions, (The EPA, etc.) arms their people. The IRS has it's own armed people to make arrests, plus here's a picture of their. . . SWAT team?

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Dear America,

Post by Chalo » Dec 19 2012 2:20am

salty9 wrote:People buying handguns should realize that the odds are that they will be used against a family member rather than an intruder. I knew 3 families with such fatalies and one where an intruder was killed. Grandpa spent some time in prison for manslaughter though.
I understand the statistical incidence is that you are 7 times more likely to shoot a loved one or yourself with your "home defense" weapon than you are to shoot an intruder. That doesn't sound like a very good defense at all.
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Re: Dear America,

Post by Jeremy Harris » Dec 19 2012 4:23am

Lot's of interesting defensive behaviour being exhibited in the thread, which is to be expected given critical comments being made. So far I cannot really understand the concept that more potential violence (i.e. let's all have more guns) is the answer to the massive social problems that are the root cause of the colossal murder rate in the US.

The vast majority of other, similarly mixed and socially and economically stressed, Western societies have vastly lower murder rates than the US. The majority of those other Western societies have much tighter gun ownership laws.

Guns are certainly part of the US problem, but not the root cause. If the US people want to reduce the very high violent crime and murder rate in their society then they are going to have to look way beyond gun control and address all of the issues that cause this problem.

The alternative is to accept that such higher probability of being murdered in the US is something to be nationally proud of, as a weird mark of bravado, perhaps. It's a shame that many of those of us outside the US can see nothing positive about such bravado.

This was brought into focus on our local news yesterday, when it revealed that one of the victims of the Newtown tragedy, Dylan Hockley, aged 6, was British, from a town a few miles from me. The view seemed to be "only in America could this happen", which is not wholly accurate, but certainly not far off.
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Re: Dear America,

Post by knoxie » Dec 19 2012 6:32am

Good Post Jeremy

I can understand people wanting to go hunting with a small bore rifle, I can also understand people wanting to keep the same gun as a means to protect their family however I can not see why anyone should need or should own any kind of fully automatic assault weapon or pistol? There is no justification for having one period.

It’s a very complex situation to address and this has always been the problem, I think that bottom line they need to restrict the sale and ownership of all guns, they need to ban totally assault rifles and limit all weapons to 4 shot magazines including shotguns & pistols…this of course is a mammoth task to undertake and enforce its almost impossible and that is why sadly I don’t think that this shooting or many more shootings will make any difference at all.

For me the loss of anyone young or old in this way is so very tragic but it is something that could have been avoided if proper controls were in place, here in the UK gun control is very tight you can not own hand guns apart from .22 rim fire which have to be held at the range that you shoot them at, shotguns are allowed but limited to max 3 shells if pumped, small bore hunting rifles are allowed but they are magazine limited and there are no semi or fully automatic weapons allowed.

I really hope things change, what is amazing though and does say something is that the Family of little Dylan from Britain that moved to America although devastated say that they still don’t regret moving to the US, that does say a lot I suppose.
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Re: Dear America,

Post by etriker » Dec 19 2012 8:02am

I don't get you uk kids ?

You use terms like Western societies and say you are from the UK and such.

I don't get it ?

Why not say you are from England or Scotland or such ?

And Western societies ?

Go into a Walmart in Tampa and there are people from all around the world.

This whole city is people from all over the world.

We have every color, every religion right here living together getting along fine.

Did service calls for tv repair in Tampa and I have been all over Tampa.

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Re: Dear America,

Post by etriker » Dec 19 2012 9:24am

Is it like a way of showing support for the kingdom saying UK ?

It really does not have to be a kingdom does it ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy

This whole idea that a person is born into greatness is what we are still trying to get rid of in the USA.

Ya'll need to just let it go.

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Re: Dear America,

Post by Lebowski » Dec 19 2012 9:49am

talking about how everything is 100% fair in america...

A thought occurred to me during the last elections. In the USA you have this electoral college
where each state has a certain amount of electoral votes. Whoever gets the majority
of the popular vote in a state gets all the electoral votes, right ?

So, dependent on which state you live in the ratio of electoral votes versus popular
votes is different. In one state your popular vote buys 0.000001 electoral votes, in another
state 0.000002 .

Which leads me to the conclusion that as far as elections go people in certains states
are more valuable than people in other states. So, where is the equality in this ?

And how is this destributed ? People in (historically) rich states are probably 'more important' ?

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Re: Dear America,

Post by etriker » Dec 19 2012 9:58am

Lebowski wrote:talking about how everything is 100% fair in america...

A thought occurred to me during the last elections. In the USA you have this electoral college
where each state has a certain amount of electoral votes. Whoever gets the majority
of the popular vote in a state gets all the electoral votes, right ?

So, dependent on which state you live in the ratio of electoral votes versus popular
votes is different. In one state your popular vote buys 0.000001 electoral votes, in another
state 0.000002 .

Which leads me to the conclusion that as far as elections go people in certains states
are more valuable than people in other states. So, where is the equality in this ?

And how is this destributed ? People in (historically) rich states are probably 'more important' ?
It is here too the idea that people are born into greatness.

An idea that is hard to get rid of.

I think it is going away slowly.

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Re: Dear America,

Post by Jeremy Harris » Dec 19 2012 10:03am

Lebowski wrote:talking about how everything is 100% fair in america...

A thought occurred to me during the last elections. In the USA you have this electoral college
where each state has a certain amount of electoral votes. Whoever gets the majority
of the popular vote in a state gets all the electoral votes, right ?

So, dependent on which state you live in the ratio of electoral votes versus popular
votes is different. In one state your popular vote buys 0.000001 electoral votes, in another
state 0.000002 .

Which leads me to the conclusion that as far as elections go people in certains states
are more valuable than people in other states. So, where is the equality in this ?

And how is this destributed ? People in (historically) rich states are probably 'more important' ?
This was discussed here a couple of years ago, when the idea of "proportional representation" was being put forward for elections (as it does from time to time).

I think the US system started from the simple premise that all states were equal, without taking into account the large imbalance in true voting power that arises from this system.

Having said that, I've yet to see any truly representative voting system, our "first past the post" system often results in the majority of the electorate voting for parties that don't get into power, and if anything is worse than the US system in terms of representation.
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Re: Dear America,

Post by Miles » Dec 19 2012 10:06am

etriker wrote:I don't get you uk kids ?

You use terms like Western societies and say you are from the UK and such.

I don't get it ?

Why not say you are from England or Scotland or such ?
http://ukinusa.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/f ... s/uk-vs-gb

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Re: Dear America,

Post by etriker » Dec 19 2012 10:07am

Miles wrote:
etriker wrote:I don't get you uk kids ?

You use terms like Western societies and say you are from the UK and such.

I don't get it ?

Why not say you are from England or Scotland or such ?
http://ukinusa.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/f ... s/uk-vs-gb
Scotland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Davidson

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: Dear America,

Post by Miles » Dec 19 2012 10:12am

You wouldn't say that you were from the US? US, UK.... United sounds kind of socialist :)

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Re: Dear America,

Post by neptronix » Dec 19 2012 10:13am

Haha, well..
We have taxation with representation and it's still bad :lol:
Instead of our leaders being selected on a bloodline basis, powerful industrial interests elect our leaders ultimately, via all sorts of ways to manipulate the system and public opinion.

I'd like to say we have a better system, but we don't. The constitution has been progressively used more for toilet paper than guiding our nation since this country's inception. What we had back in the day was a huge advance in personal freedom in contrast to to the way people lived in the British empire way back when.

I think we will see another exodus as America continues to turn into a less free and more difficult place to live in the next 100 years. The more difficult it is, the more outburst of violence we will see like this.

But history shows us that personal freedom and ease of living can only continue to increase over time.



( skip to about 3:45 )
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

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etriker   100 kW

100 kW
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Joined: May 27 2012 8:21am
Location: Florida USA

Re: Dear America,

Post by etriker » Dec 19 2012 10:18am

Miles wrote:You wouldn't say that you were from the US? US, UK.... United sounds kind of socialist :)
That is why all these crazy people are hording guns !

They think that our socialist president and his socialist uk euro buddies are going to take us all down the drain and they are hording guns and beans and such.

If people quit saying Scotland and England those words will go away ?

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