Canada versus the USA - longterm employment

Which do you think will be a better country in the longterm for employment? Mainly interested in longterm discretionary income, after taxes, mandatory insurance (Of whatever kind), car insurance and rent and food.

Mandatory Insurance
Health Insurance under Obamacare - ? (22k - $120/month)
Canadian employment insurance - ? (300/month?)

Taxes
Pretty similar between the two countries, income taxes and sales taxes

Car insurance
Canada - $3000-$4000/year
USA - $1000/year for liability

Rent
Canada - ? (500 - smaller city? 1000 - crowded big city?)
USA - 500 smaller city, 700-800 crowded big cities

Food
Pretty similar

Fuel
Slightly more expensive in Canada

Heating
More expensive in Canada, don't know how much more ($1000 more per year?)

Median gross for generation Y
USA - $14,000/year (?)
Canada - $20,000-$30,000/year (?)

Canadian rent is 500 for a room in a party house, 1200 for a small 1 bedroom condo in Vancouver / Calgary / Toronto. 2000-4000 for a small house / townhouse. But in small oil towns rent is much cheaper and salaries are much higher. You can buy a small condo for 170k.

Alberta only has national sales tax of 5% no provincial tax.

If you get rich, you dont' have to pay any tax (except tax on Canadian sourced income) if you live 184 days outside of Canada per year.

Small businesses with net income less than 500k per year only pay 14% income tax.

Canada has a tax treaty with Barbados so you can start a shell bank with 5 employees and not pay any tax on your investments.

Canada has a labor shortage for most trades and technical fields. If you're in Alberta or Sasky and you have a pulse, and the ability to weld, drive class 1 or do machining, you can get a job pronto.

The cost of our 'mandatory' health insurance in Alberta is 0

In BC you pay $62.00 per month. The portion of your income taxes that goes to health care is $300 per month, but America spends that on military so it's the same cost.

Income tax for someone at McDonalds is about 10%. Someone making $200,000 per year at a job will pay $80,000 in taxes. The same person with an incorporated company will make $200,000 in the corporation and pay about $25,000-30,000 in taxes.

iamsofunny said:

But in small oil towns rent is much cheaper and salaries are much higher.

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I remember that used to be like the good old days in the USA. Salaries are still high in the oil towns, but rents have been pushed through the roof due to the legions of the unemployed/underemployed young adults trying to find work in the fields.

Do you have any knowledge on the housing markets? I saw the real estate price curves and I fear that Canada may be at the peak of a housing bubble. I understand that Canada avoided a housing price crash due to more effective banking regulations unlike the relatively lawless USA, but even markets with regulations can still crash, and they're especially vulnerable to it if they have a speculative element and how quickly the real estate prices have risen with it starting to slow down now suggests a correction might be on the horizon. (I.e., "If I buy this house today, I can sell it and make money after the value doubles!" kind of thinking)

But I personally don't know what the Canadian housing market "feels like". The kind of feeling I'd look for with speculative activity is that quite a few people are trying to make money by buying and selling houses and/or refinancing after the value doubles.

Pretty 'general' comparison going on. In California alone, the ranges for these costs that you have listed vary GREATLY.

$2000/mo where I live, will only get you a 2 Bd, 1Ba apartment (and that's if you score a decent deal).

Where I work, downtown LA, $2000 is enough to get a 4 Bd, 3Ba in the 'hood. On top of that, there are lofts in the downtown area that will run $2 Million and the HOA fees are more than my rent. Big disparities in the income levels around here.

Lately, the Condo prices jumped about 50% as they have been starting to fill back up. There were MANY empty condos around 2010 and 2011.

cal3thousand said:

Pretty 'general' comparison going on. In California alone, the ranges for these costs that you have listed vary GREATLY.

$2000/mo where I live, will only get you a 2 Bd, 1Ba apartment (and that's if you score a decent deal).

Where I work, downtown LA, $2000 is enough to get a 4 Bd, 3Ba in the 'hood. On top of that, there are lofts in the downtown area that will run $2 Million and the HOA fees are more than my rent. Big disparities in the income levels around here.

Lately, the Condo prices jumped about 50% as they have been starting to fill back up. There were MANY empty condos around 2010 and 2011.

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LA. The extremes of wealth and poverty, the extremes of income and high rent everywhere due to overcrowding. Don't exactly think it's the place young folks are going nowadays, except for the naive starlets hoping to become the next Hollywood star.

what kind of work are you looking for? that should help narrow things down a bit.
a friend of mine moved out to manitoba from central ontario. here, doing welding, he was making 25k a year gross. he went there, got a job doing the same thing making 35k a year with room to grow. where he left was a city of 75 thousand people. he moved to winnipeg, the largest city in manitoba (dont know the pop). rent is virtually identical. food is often cheaper. same with gas. insurance is cheap too, as they have provincial insurance.
i have a brother in calgary. he went out with no education at all, and has a job in marketing making 35k. downtown apartment in a highrise building is 1200 a month.
alberta, sask, and manitoba are the places to go for jobs.

swbluto said:

Car insurance
Canada - $3000-$4000/year
USA - $1000/year for liability

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Do you guys really pay that much for a single car annual insurance ?...

cant be that much... i dont have a license at all, and when i looked into motorcycle insurance, it was 2500 including comprehensive and collision. for the year. up front. made building an ebike more enticing lol

Njay said:

swbluto said:

Car insurance
Canada - $3000-$4000/year
USA - $1000/year for liability

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Do you guys really pay that much for a single car annual insurance ?...

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I pay 1300 for Full coverage 50k/100k on 2 cars. Liability would be much less. But I have a clean driving record. Someone with points will pay much more. My insurance was 1500 for 1 car liability only when I was 22 y/o (speeding tickets)

Do you have any knowledge on the housing markets? I saw the real estate price curves and I fear that Canada may be at the peak of a housing bubble.

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In Calgary, we just had a flood. The price of real estate went up 10% in 1 week to average about $425,000. Vancouver is $630,000 and Toronto is $505,000. So yes, there is a housing bubble in Vancouver and Toronto and their income / industry / rent cap do not support these prices and they will correct.

You can buy a reasonable house in Sask province for $250,000. The best place to save money is in Sask. Alberta has some troubles, specifically nowhere to rent in Calgary and somewhat expensive cost of getting things done.

How much is car insurance in Canada? I took my car off the road in 2006 and I was paying $130 / month with $500 deductable to ICBC (BC's government monopolized insurance company - actually a good service despite my libertarian views) and since I started buying insurance again in 2013 in Alberta I pay $130 / month with $5,000 deductable.

I never paid more than $325/y (that's when I bought the car, new, and I was less than 25), but it's not "full coverage", it covers everything (up to at least certain law set values) except my own car. For full coverage that would be up to some $600/y something.
Now that my car is 13yo I pay $250 for the above plus "no questions asked" glass exchange and a few other minor things.

Car insurance varies very greatly in the USA based on many different factors, driving record, age, marriage, credit score, etc. For instance I pay $80/mo for "good" as in no where near the minimum, full coverage on my 2002 Z06. Keep in mind that these rates are in one of the areas with some of the highest rates. Others might pay double or triple the amount I pay. I've had quotes from other carriers that want $200/mo just to insure this single car when I have 2 cars insured for about $160 with full coverage.

This is a very hard metric to get an average on, best to do some research to see what the official averages might be.

Here in Arizona employment is getting slightly better. High school students are starting to work at fast food joints again rather than former business owners and college grads that can't get a job. We only had a few businesses shut down lately. Jobs here are still a mad feeding frenzy, but not as such of a nutzoid grabfest that is used to be. Several of my buddies are getting by making a few bucks here and there helping people move, fixing cars computers and appliances rather than working a regular job, and I know quite a few people who are "retired", but would rather be working.

If what Muffinman is saying about jobs in Canada is true it sounds a lot better than what is going on here. I have looked into welding jobs and the jobs available to compete for are weld part A to part B for minimum wage kinda stuff.

If what Muffinman is saying about jobs in Canada is true it sounds a lot better than what is going on here. I have looked into welding jobs and the jobs available to compete for are weld part A to part B for minimum wage kinda stuff.

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If you're a journeyman welder you start at $33/hour in Alberta and Sasky. A beginner apprentice welder gets about $22/hr. Heavy duty mechanics get paid better than welders though.

My company is retail and I will have to pay $20/hr to get a good worker. I'm moving a lot of my operation to BC where labour and rent is cheap and available.

parajared said:

If what Muffinman is saying about jobs in Canada is true it sounds a lot better than what is going on here. I have looked into welding jobs and the jobs available to compete for are weld part A to part B for minimum wage kinda stuff.

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The macroeconomics of Canada are far better than the USA now and probably going forward. The country has little debt, the most important natural resources are significantly more plentiful than in the USA and the population is much smaller. (In other words, their natural resources per capita figure is much higher than the USA.)

However, I don't know if Canada can "keep ahead" of the USA for long, because they've always mirrored each other financially up until 2007 (Incomes, house prices, etc.), so I'm thinking them doing better for now is probably temporary. Whether that means a Canadian housing crash will ensue and their going income levels will match the USA or maybe the USA will regain the going income levels of yesteryear, I dunno, but it would seem strange they'd do so radically different over the long-term when the two countries have been essentially mirrors of each other for so long.

However, I will say that Canada's income distribution will likely be more egalitarian in the years to come - it is already more unequal in the USA by a large margin and the USA only seems to be becoming increasingly divergent as the plutocrats suck this country dry however they can. Meaning, "the lower paying" jobs in Canada will probably pay significantly more than "the lower paying" jobs in USA for some time to come. (The welder example being a good illustration of the difference)

Interestingly, however, it seems unemployment rates in Canada have been historically higher than the USA except recently. I'm guessing higher levels of taxation and minimum wage might help explain the relative difference along with lower resource prices in most of the latter part of the 1900s (Much of Canada's resources aren't profitable except above certain price levels, like Tar Sand Oil), though it's a mystery. If higher commodities prices are sustained and the profitability of canada's resource industries continues, then i'd expect that trend to be reversed while high commodity prices are sustained.

The only time that Canada had unemployment was in 2009 but that only lasted a year. It's always possible to find a job. The unemployment rate is made up of people who want to get paid to sit in an office and do nothing. If you're useful, there is always work here.

Canada's housing market is so high because of much higher money supply growth spawned mostly by TD bank's desire to gain market share in mortgages. People can barely afford their payments especially in Vancouver where 89% of after tax income goes to housing.

Previously, the US had better prospects because it was more free market. However, now Canada is more free market due to:
- Lobbying in the US (Lobbying is illegal in Canada)
- Obamacare (fascism)
- Monopolies are illegal in the US, but highly sought in Canada
- Wealthy Canadians don't have to pay tax
- Canadian tax audits are quick and not very harmful
- Canada does not have many illegal immigrants (but way too many legal immigrants who can't speak English)
- US Federal Reserve intervention in the markets
- Canadians are weary of lawsuits

But some things are way cheaper in the US like renting a commercial building (50% lower), domestic freight, mexican food and other articles therof

- Lobbying in the US (Lobbying is illegal in Canada)

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Yep, politics are far more corruptible in the USA.

- Obamacare (fascism)

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The USA is desperate. Government and the insurance companies are hitting the people up for "insurance money" via law, the insurance companies having capped out what market share they could achieve through the free market and US government's tax revenues in decline over the last several years.

- Monopolies are illegal in the US, but highly sought in Canada

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What kind of monopolies? Are they privately owned and controlled monopolies? The USA has monopolies, but they're typically government owned such as utilities and electricity and/or they're under strict supervision of the local municipalities. Some are less monitored, like Cable TV, but luckily that's not a necessity, strictly speaking.

- Wealthy Canadians don't have to pay tax

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Essentially the same in the USA.

Canadian tax audits are quick and not very harmful

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Canada's government is not desperate for the funds, unlike the USA.

- Canadians are weary of lawsuits

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Canadians aren't desperate for money unlike people in the USA. It's exactly the same in Australia. Ambitious/greedy/desperate people don't have to sue each other to enjoy a good life, they can simply work for it.

Essentially, most of the USA's pitfalls are due to desperation. Some people call it greed, which is true, but much of it is greed motivated by desperation.

canadians dont sue becaus the settlements the judges grant are rarely more than the legal fees. and we generally dont have high insurance coverage, for the same reason. plus, when we get injured, we dont have huge medical bills (on top of lost wages) to pay, which would also motivate litigation.

also, only some areas have grotesquely inflated housing prices, such as vancouver and toronto. there are plenty of nice places that arent nearly as bad.

muffinman said:

canadians dont sue becaus the settlements the judges grant are rarely more than the legal fees. and we generally dont have high insurance coverage, for the same reason. plus, when we get injured, we dont have huge medical bills (on top of lost wages) to pay, which would also motivate litigation.

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As it should be. The medical establishment in the USA is greedy beyond repair! It's become the norm trying to squeeze every last penny out of the elderly's retirement accounts and assets, whom make up the bulk of hospital clientele, with prices reflecting that which ends up screwing everybody who has a semi-serious medical problem and doesn't have similar levels of savings. (I.e., most people below 40)

Interesting about the suing tidbit. That seems like it'd be a better system than what's currently in the USA, overall.

In a, "man, I want to live there" kind of way, lol. The USA seems to be more like a casino in a way, in that the odds are more tilted against the average person with people declaring bankruptcy when they hit the medical/legal jackpot. (Or, conversely, striking it rich with a lawsuit though rarely.)

i only envy your countries diversity of climate. im kinda hoping canada will get around to buying florida...

muffinman said:

i only envy your countries diversity of climate. im kinda hoping canada will get around to buying florida...

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I'm hoping so, too, lol.

I noticed that the only place in Canada without major "snow problems" was Vancouver and that one island city(?) near Vancouver. I also noticed that Vancouver had outrageous real estate prices, suggesting there's a lot of canadians crowding out the city to avoid the snow, lol.

Southern California is kind of the same way, though there's a lot of options avoiding-snow wise across the states.

This topic is WAAAAAAY too general. First off, each province in Canada should be treated as a separate country and the same should be done for each state in the US. For instance Living in BC in Canada is similar but slightly less expensive (on average) than living in California. There are loads more jobs in BC right now though but average wages would be lower. However if you Take that same comparison and compare BC to Texas, well, Texas blows BC away in every category (except maybe winter recreation). I use this comparison because I have lived for years in each of those areas so i can give a first hand experience.

My insurance is $78 a month on my car. We rent our 1 bedroom suite out for 800/month for all included except cable. Our whole house would rent for ~1400-1600 (4bdrm) up stairs and ~800 for the suite. Health care sucks to pay but I would be on the streets if I had to pay the US docter/hospital fees before obamacare.
Life is not perfact by any means the Man is up in my shit to much and its only time until they have complete control leading to a over throwing of the Man!
For instance we want to supply our own wine for our wedding from Chantal's parents but wine kits is illegal now in bc for serving at weddings you MUST purchase your wine from a BC approved liquor store.... So in short the person who wrote a law gets to put more money in their pocket from the law.....
Car taken away for 40km/h over the speed limit! Speeding is so bad they tell you but if you are 10-39 over you PAY a fine and be on your way to hopefully get another fine for some more money for them.

Car insurance sucks here in Toronto. My Mom pays 380$/Mo. to insure her car full coverage, she is over 50 with a clean driving record. Granted she only has her G2 (with a G would be 280$/Mo), and it is a 2 door car...

Rates also fluctuate depending on how the neighborhood is doing, probably nothing new.

Now I just looked into insuring a 2000 4DR Acura 1.6EL, and the lowest rate is apparently $5700/year .

Have full G and a clean record btw.

If you are a 19 year old male in this city, you best stick to e-bikes :lol: