Utopia

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Rollodo   1 kW

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Utopia

Post by Rollodo » Jan 18 2014 12:53pm

I've always wondered, is there a truly free country (or a territory), where one can live completely tax-free and not worry that the house he paid his money for will be repossessed by a fat and greedy wasps? Or that if there is tax, that it will be used for real public benefit, like building roads, fast. That the democracy means that politicians are actually elected and do more good than harm.

Is there a place like that?
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arkmundi   1 GW

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Re: Utopia

Post by arkmundi » Jan 18 2014 1:29pm

No, but that doesn't mean you can't dream about such a place, and in dreaming work to make the place where you're at a little bit more like the dream.

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Re: Utopia

Post by yopappamon » Jan 18 2014 6:21pm

Antarctica. Perhaps some uninhabited island is the south pacific.

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Re: Utopia

Post by r3volved » Jan 18 2014 8:34pm

I personally want to visit and learn more about Iceland. They've overthrown the banks. They've overthrown Monsanto and they've overthrown their corrupt government. Their taxes actually go to their country and their country gives back tons of perks and deductions to their taxpayers.

That might all be possible because their language is impossible though.

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Re: Utopia

Post by Dauntless » Jan 18 2014 9:35pm

A place such as this would deserve to be invaded so the people could be freed and be given the government they deserve, as with Afghanistan and Iraq. Perhaps this is the objection to Iran, their taxes might not be high enough. Might your hammock stand still be such a place?

Would that Shangri-La were a real place. The novel was a bit dry, but oh what a terrific Frank Capra film.

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Re: Utopia

Post by The fingers » Jan 18 2014 11:10pm

A place where my bike goes 40 mph 24/7 while powered by cosmic rays. :D
Nope, that would be Biketopia. :roll:
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Re: Utopia

Post by Eskimo » Jan 19 2014 1:39am

Countries like Iceland and Finland (in the past at least), are more like villages than nations compared to USA. Very unicultural and very small population-wise. It changes things. Everybody doing anything knows everybody personally, very small circles, which creates social ties of shame, honour and that kind of things. Whatever you do, you risk your personal ties to many people, you can not just go and imagine that you would be some kind of free individual free of social ties. There"s no people to choose from much. If you want to hire someone, or whatever, you can not just go like in a big country: "what a guy, next one!". There"s no next one, you have deal with that one. Whatever are your requirements, there"s no sea of people out there to choose from, only very few individuals that you have to accept with all their pecularities if you want to achieve anything. Small country forces you to have a social tolerance towards even those most creepy crazies, and on the other hand gives you a feel that you are always accepted on some level no matter how weird you are. In a small country you do not have to behave to be accepted, if you are "one of us". People do not identify you thru your behaviour so much, but through your sameness with them. They try to figure out are you "them", or "us". In a big country your behaviour is very important, it"s your homepage that displays you. Iceland is doing pretty good, yeah.

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Re: Utopia

Post by arkmundi » Jan 19 2014 10:51am

The good society comes in the context of human responsibility - that's response-able - and through compassion. E.F. Schumacher wrote a treatise in 1965 titled Small is Beautiful and an essay in that on Buddhist Economics. My idea of utopia is a place where such writing are required reading in school and practised and practised, and no one is let off the hook.

But "utopia" has come to connote the opposite, an escape, as if elsewhere is the place of true happiness. If every idiot were to move to Iceland or Burma or Bolivia or wherever IT is to be found, those places would soon become just like everywhere else. Without the necessity of a transformation in human consciousness and the exercise of compassion, there is no emergent reality that approximates a place of tranquility, civility and happiness.

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Re: Utopia

Post by LSBW » Jan 19 2014 12:05pm

Rollodo wrote:I've always wondered, is there a truly free country (or a territory), where one can live completely tax-free and not worry that the house he paid his money for will be repossessed by a fat and greedy wasps? Or that if there is tax, that it will be used for real public benefit, like building roads, fast. That the democracy means that politicians are actually elected and do more good than harm.

Is there a place like that?
LOL. How do you intend to live in this house without hydro, water and drainage? Never mind maintained roads, because no one will be able to find it :)

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Re: Utopia

Post by FeralDog » Jan 19 2014 12:06pm

Rollodo wrote:I've always wondered, is there a truly free country (or a territory), where one can live completely tax-free and not worry that the house he paid his money for will be repossessed by a fat and greedy wasps? Or that if there is tax, that it will be used for real public benefit, like building roads, fast. That the democracy means that politicians are actually elected and do more good than harm.
Is there a place like that?
No.
Whenever there is a group of people looking for "freedom" some self-appointed messiah eventually declares themselves as Dictator. Then this supreme leader starts making his own ego-centric rules to control the behavior of others.
Example:
My idea of utopia is a place where such writing are required reading in school and practised and practised, and no one is let off the hook.

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Re: Utopia

Post by Matthijs » Jan 19 2014 12:18pm

http://www.thevenusproject.com/

I would like to live in a resource based economy without the need of money.

Jacque Fresco is for me one of the most inspirational people ever.



http://www.thevenusproject.com/extras/faq
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Re: Utopia

Post by joepah » Jan 19 2014 12:31pm

you get what you pay for.

Utopia would work for the very wealthy because they could buy their protection, abuse the poor and workers without fear, and not pay a penny to the betterment of others or the infrastructure.

For the rest of us, life without taxes or banks would be much a life much more uncertain. Most could never afford to pay for a house, and would have trouble protecting their family.

Pretty much the Antebellum South..lol

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Re: Utopia

Post by yopappamon » Jan 19 2014 1:07pm

LSBW wrote: LOL. How do you intend to live in this house without hydro, water and drainage? Never mind maintained roads, because no one will be able to find it :)
Are you implying the only way to get those things is by tax and government?

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Re: Utopia

Post by arkmundi » Jan 19 2014 1:21pm

FeralDog wrote:Whenever there is a group of people looking for "freedom" some self-appointed messiah eventually declares themselves as Dictator. Then this supreme leader starts making his own ego-centric rules to control the behavior of others.
Example:
arkmundi wrote:My idea of utopia is a place where such writing are required reading in school and practised and practised, and no one is let off the hook.
Well, no, FeralDogRatPig, you seem to have misinterpreted again according to your inane rules of discourse. By that logic, every school board and school textbook committee would be an ego-centric supreme leader and every school curriculum an exercise of coercion. Rather, I propose that the wisdom of those in such a position of responsibility recognize the value of "economics as if people mattered" and seek to introduce such concepts. But, go ahead, throw me another one of your absurd diatribes.

For everyone else looking for meaningful change, here's Otto Scharmer's talk at the 33rd E.F. Schumacher Lectures:
Last edited by arkmundi on Jan 19 2014 3:48pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Utopia

Post by LSBW » Jan 19 2014 2:49pm

yopappamon wrote:
LSBW wrote: LOL. How do you intend to live in this house without hydro, water and drainage? Never mind maintained roads, because no one will be able to find it :)
Are you implying the only way to get those things is by tax and government?
Lets take for example US. Not a smallest country in the world.

Currently there's the Population density (people per sq. km) in the United States was last reported at 33.82 in 2010 http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united- ... -data.html

Assuming there's 3 people per household, it is 10 houses per 1 sq. km. Doable.

Lets assume wind and solar will cover their energy needs, drilled wells and rivers will provide enough water, and heating? Well, it will be tough, especially in a winter like we having now.
So, how do you propose feeding and clothe 300 million people without any manufacturing at all?
Don't forget, China won't be selling you socks forever for 5 cents a pair.
Plus you need to sell something in return to China, in order to be able to buy something from them. :)

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Re: Utopia

Post by FeralDog » Jan 19 2014 3:04pm

joepah wrote:you get what you pay for.
Utopia would work for the very wealthy because they could buy their protection, abuse the poor and workers without fear, and not pay a penny to the betterment of others or the infrastructure.
For the rest of us, life without taxes or banks would be much a life much more uncertain. Most could never afford to pay for a house, and would have trouble protecting their family.
Pretty much the Antebellum South..lol
Utopia works for the powerful (who then become very, very wealthy).
A place in which people "buy their protection, abuse the poor and workers without fear, and not pay a penny to the betterment of others or the infrastructure; and most could never afford to pay for a house, and would have trouble protecting their family."
is much more the definition of what really happens in the Socialist and Communist countries.
Joseph Stalin , Chairman Mao, and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (aka North Korea & Crazy Kim) all touted their peoples' Utopia.

@arkmundi: "Well, no, FeralDogRatPig, you seem to have misinterpreted again according to your inane rules of discourse. Beware the ad hominem insults, lest I demand you get on your knees and slarve my donk.
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Re: Utopia

Post by arkmundi » Jan 19 2014 3:50pm

... and here's Van Jones' talk at the 33rd E.F. Schumacher Lectures:

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Re: Utopia

Post by The fingers » Jan 19 2014 6:23pm

For every person looking for utopia, there are thousands of people happily medicated in udopeia. :twisted:
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Re: Utopia

Post by Dauntless » Jan 19 2014 10:14pm

For everyone else looking for meaningful change, here's Otto Scharmer's talk at the 33rd E.F. Schumacher Lectures:
How many think this room is TOO NICE (For our lecture)?"
That says it all before they even get started. Ahh, to bring back the days of economic justice and equity. Was it really only 100 years ago when your clothes had to last for decades? You didn't dare wash them much, that would wear them out in the first decade.

If only we could have back the dark ages. When there was no rampant consumerism that demanded a family have more than one drinking cup. The King barely lived any better than his subjects. How MANY quotes have philosphers made about people who don't want things don't feel deprived at not having them?

That's right, here I'm watching the football playoffs, engaging in a game of 'Internet Football' while I'm at it.

By that logic, every school board and school textbook committee would be an ego-centric supreme leader and every school curriculum an exercise of coercion.
And it is. So much is said about it being that way. 'Economics as if people mattered' would remove the political Dr. Feel Good Drug Curriculum that dominates education and would focus on things like 'Employability' in a SUCCESSFUL economy a mandare, with allowing mindless jobs that require a minimum wage of over $2/hour and healthcare for the willfully useless a violation of everyone's Constitutional rights.

Oh, wait, wasn't it Lenin who said 'Those who don't need to work, don't need to eat?' That wasn't the suggestion, it was the LAW. When there weren't enough dropping dead on their own, Stalin took direct action. The woman in that video made the fool remark "Learning from the future." No, the future is supposed to learn from us, but for that to happen we have to learn from the past. Those who cannot remember the quote of George Santayana are condemned to paraphrase him. And those who ignore the dicotomy of economic equality and economic justice would condemn all of us to repeat. . . .

. . . .Oh, how about the fact that the long term prospects of any government that depended on plunder was collapse? How about governments with tax rates that exceeded income? One was 800%. This is what it takes to maintain a dole for the unproductive poor. As Winston Churchill said, you can only have economic equality with equal poverty. To stick with the George Santayana theme: '
It is not society's fault that most men seem to miss their vocation. Most men have no vocation.'

I would like to live in a resource based economy without the need of money.
Oh yeah. Like when the government lets you move onto some land and let's you provide some of the productivity in return, you then run around making trades with your neighbors. . . . It's called FEUDALISM! Boy, that worked well. Even with no actual taxes paid for infrastructure there was always roads and canals. At the cost of only the armed men who rounded up workers and their tools to take them out to make them build. The Vargars, meanwhile, could live in the hills, loot crops and other things from time to time, maybe hold a few people up on the roads, extort payoffs for those working to be left in peace --- What a life! Long story about fencing the common land, private ownership, Vargars (Literally people living as wolves) forced to move to the city and work for a living. Thus begins security and prosperity with the advent of ---CAPITALISM!

These monomanics giving speeches, are they selling tickets to attend or are they taking up collections? When I was working for TRW they would say 'If you make the customer say WOW, they will pay near any price.' But a lot of good these fantasies they hypnotize you with will ever do you. They are pretty well always talking about failed economic systems of the past that the sheeple who follow them should be embarassed at their ignorance at not knowing anything about them. What properties these theories in these speeches have, independent of your undeveloped imaginings, is an incoherent thing.

Instead of dwelling on meaningful change, could we finally come to grips with the meaning OF change?
George Santayana actually wrote:When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

All living souls welcome whatever they are ready to cope with; all else they ignore, or pronounce to be monstrous and wrong, or deny to be possible.

Professional philosophers are usually only apologists: that is, they are absorbed in defending some vested illusion or some eloquent idea. Like lawyers or detectives, they study the case for which they are retained.
Meanwhile, I'd love to go on about John Law, (The spiritual Godfather of Bitcoin) The 'Kipper und Wipper' vs. replacing gold and silver with paper money, (Even in America, when the price of gold was rising, people began to cut the "Excess" away from their gold coins so there would only be the value of the coin in gold) but would you really take anything from it that you didn't WANT to believe? Since Obama is a huge proponent of Law's theories, would it bother the Obama fans that Law was convicted of the murder of a romantic rival and sentenced to death but bought his way out of it? The term 'Millionaire' was coined because he made SO MANY in the public into millionaires, greatly driving up prices in general. . . .

. . . .But instead of opening their minds to the truth and reality, some people will just get mad and I'll give up posting on this thread.

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Re: Utopia

Post by arkmundi » Jan 20 2014 12:00pm

Thanks for the great rant on inclusion of George Santayana in this thread, a man whose philosophy I greatly admire. Hence, let's not forget that he contributed greatly to the development of religious naturalism (see note).
wikipedia wrote:Religious naturalism is an approach to spirituality that is devoid of supernaturalism. The focus is on the religious attributes of the universe/nature, the understanding of it and our response to it (interpretive, spiritual and moral). These provide for the development of an eco-morality....
Such is the very essence of New Economics as variously represented above, and why it should be core to any curriculum. Economics, not only as if people mattered, but all of life as it has evolved and so the basis of continued human survival.
Herman E. Daly wrote:The economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not the reverse. reference

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Re: Utopia

Post by liveforphysics » Jan 20 2014 3:00pm

Rollodo wrote:I've always wondered, is there a truly free country (or a territory), where one can live completely tax-free and not worry that the house he paid his money for will be repossessed by a fat and greedy wasps? Or that if there is tax, that it will be used for real public benefit, like building roads, fast. That the democracy means that politicians are actually elected and do more good than harm.

Is there a place like that?

It can and has been done, unfortunately peaceful cultures tend to be killed off rapidly by non-peaceful alternatives.

To have a utopia though, you have to drop all the human construct illusions like "authority", "ownership", "laws" and you need to shift the core indoctrination values from involving amassing money/resources into something more like expressing love and kindness, choosing to be contented/sated with whatever situation you've got, etc. It's actually not too uncommon to see through history at small enough population sizes where humans still have ethics and morals used in decision making. Once the group becomes a certain size, it creates an illusion that group approval is some type of authority, and the moment an authority concept exists people set aside there own morals and ethics and act as they believe is best for the group, which is essentially the root of all evil's committed in a society.
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Re: Utopia

Post by bronz » Jan 20 2014 3:42pm

I hear about the resource economy idea a lot but I personally think that an energy based economy makes a lot more sense. A hypothetical path to a utopian system shouldn't include any kind of extraordinary human initiative in my opinion, because doing that pretty much destroys any possibility of such a thing happening. I like to create a path to a near-utopian system by using feasible stepping stones which rely on well established principles of human psychology and physics. I feel like my ideas turn out to be more feasible that way. Anyway, here is one hypothetical utopia:

For most people who live in an industrialized nation, their basic needs for survival are met through a complex system of inter-dependent manufacturing and economic entities. Food, water, clothing, fuel (for ICE cars) are all required just to live. Some people have said that those things should be made free through a collective effort, the end result of which would be 100% subsidized factories and farms operating more or less the way they always have. This relies heavily on human initiative. However, things could maybe be made arbitrarily cheap by other means.

if we look at the basic chemical composition of food and clothing we can see that they are made mostly out of natural and synthetic polymers which are almost completely made of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen. Those elements are all you need to make those things. Plants (the organism kind) and factories simply collect elements in one form or another and use energy in order to turn them into food and clothing. If you have energy and chemicals, all you need is the right machine, biological or mechanical, and you can create just about anything. And the elements you need to make 90% of things are in the atmosphere in the form of CO2, N2, and O2. All you need is some water to provide the hydrogen and you can make a huge variety of polymer based materials. If machines could be built that could breathe air and drink water and consume bottles of rarer trace elements and use those things to assemble all of the polymers and other molecules that make up food and clothing then the cost of food and clothing could be reduced dramatically. If enough of those machines existed then the cost of food and clothing could become almost negligible. It does not break any laws of physics for a machine to exist that consumes the gaseous molecules in the atmosphere with some water and produce made to order clothing. let me go into more detail about such a system:

Like I said it would breathe in air to get the nitrogen, oxygen and carbon (big one) and consume water to get even more oxygen and hydrogen. these elements would then be processed by a biological module. The bio module would use biological machines derived from cells which have all of the key cellular machinery of plant cells but are much, much more efficient and are powered directly via electric current instead of using starches or photosynthesis. The product of the bio module is a a raw polymer perhaps resembling unprocessed cotton in appearance as well as molecular structure. The raw polymer product is then handed to the assembly module which would be a compact and sophisticated series of robotic systems that would process the polymer into strands, weave the strands into cloth in exactly the correct size and shape for its application and then assemble the cloth pieces into the final product which would be a shirt or coat or whatever. The assembly module has the potential to be completely dynamic, producing a custom piece of clothing each and every time based on designs submitted by the consumer or the precise dimensions of their body. If the reliability of such a system could be made high, the end result would be a unit the size of perhaps a shipping container that could produce clothing of a higher quality than exists now while eliminating all transportation, processing, middle man and overhead costs that are associated with the shitty clothes that are sold today. If you attach solar panels to such a device then clothing could be made almost completely free. Such a system appeals to important psychological and economic forces. The machines would be sold for a profit, eventually they could become as cheap, reliable and ubiquitous as things such are internal combustion engines and computers. They would provide an large improvement over what currently exists.

If machines existed that produced food in the same way that the machine i just described produces clothing, then food and clothing could be made arbitrarily cheap. If such machines were inside every home in america then scarcity of food and clothing would be effectively eliminated. As for water, sophisticated machines in each home could recycle and collect the homes water, which would reduce the dependance on traditional water distribution and purification systems. And fuel could be made obsolete with electric vehicles, as we all know.

the production of all things required for survival could be achieved with nothing but energy, air, water and cheap trace elements. The production of food and clothing could be done domestically in homes or micro factories. The use of solar panels could make food, clothing and transportation almost free excluding the initial cost of buying the car or equipment. The installation of solar panels on every home could create a global matrix of micro economies where energy is traded instead of money in most transactions, or energy could be traded indirectly in the form of items or certain kinds of molecules made using solar power. In such a world, the ability of economic or industrial fluctuations and crashes to hurt people would be mitigated. It is feasible that through conventional economic, scientific and industrial channels the required technology could be developed and adopted gradually even on a domestic scale. I'm not even going to proof read this.

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Re: Utopia

Post by liveforphysics » Jan 20 2014 5:25pm

Humans as a species aren't going to find salvation through ever more complex machinery, it will be through inherently more robust living/lifestyles that don't need anything nature doesn't in ready-to-use forms or nearly ready to use forms. The proof of this is the cultures that have been undisturbed for long periods of time and didn't over-populate or destroy there environment or unsustainably squandered all the available resources etc. There are living/lifestyle examples that work still left in various indigenous cultures in such remote areas they haven't been poisoned by the western culture plague of influence twisting them from valuing love/nature/kindness into valuing gold/money/power-illusions/things-that-will-never-matter etc. Just my $0.02.

The moment you assign value to material things, it's inevitable your culture will collapse in on itself, it's only a matter of time.
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Re: Utopia

Post by Dauntless » Jan 20 2014 8:29pm

liveforphysics wrote: . . . .Unfortunately peaceful cultures tend to be killed off rapidly by non-peaceful alternatives.
Delivered much like the punchline of a joke.

The rest of it is almost like a trap, the greatest danger to Utopia is. . .Protecting Utopia. . . . I just see the planning of the would be dictators now. 'First, we lull them into complacency. THEN we introduce the danger, the FEAR! They'll BEG us to control them.'
bronz wrote: I'm not even going to proof read this.
Meanwhile, not the last sentence any of us want to read. Almost as though you're dismissing whether or not you got it right.

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Re: Utopia

Post by FeralDog » Jan 20 2014 11:56pm

Utopia is where Santa Claus lives.
The proof of this is the cultures that have been undisturbed for long periods of time and didn't over-populate or destroy there environment or unsustainably squandered all the available resources etc. There are living/lifestyle examples that work still left in various indigenous cultures in such remote areas they haven't been poisoned by the western culture
@liveforphysics --- Could you provide an actual example of such Utopian culture? The "undisturbed cultures" I have seen may be wishfully portrayed as environmentally friendly and sustainable ... and then again, they have a penchant for human sacrifice and head-hunting cannibalism.

@ Dauntless - Bully Sir ! Damn good posts. I particularly enjoyed your pictorial reference to the 1634-1637 neologism of Tulipomania. 8)

@ bronz ---
I'm not even going to proof read this.
TLDR , so I don't blame you for not bothering to re-read your own manifesto.

@arkimundi --- Streat-corner preaching and science fiction define thy soliloquies---->
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