My God We are ALL DOOMED
- Thread starter Harold in CR
- Start date
The fingers
10 TW
Looks like sombody's jealous of Tesla's success. 
Might also start with T?
Might also start with T?
Hillhater
100 TW
flathill said:
Whilst i too am very skeptical as to the accuracy and motivation behind this data, you cannot deny or ignor the environmental impact of battery production.
True and accurate detailed "life cycle" data collection is a near impossible science, which by definition leaves it wide open to distortion by various "quasi authoritative" parties.
...much like the climate debate, ..selective data presentation.
dogman dan
1 PW
So somebody thought any kind of mine was good for the environment? Somebody thought a tesla fell from the sky like an immaculate birth?
Wanna save the planet? Don't reproduce.
Wanna save the planet? Don't reproduce.
arkmundi
10 MW
just another reason to favor LiFePO4 which does not. The mining of Lithium is far less environmentally damaging than the mining of tarsands for oil. There is no industrial use of nature which does not have negative effects. Choose your poison wisely.[url=http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/01/19/tesla-motors-dirty-little-secret-is-a-major-proble.aspx said:
cal3thousand
10 MW
dogman said:
That's the truth right there.
Reproduction is the largest potential impact on carbon-footprint a couple can have. I suggest no more than 1 kid per couple, if you really care about the bubble we live in. I'm not talking about eliminating people or restricting birth. I mean making personal decisions that have a lasting effect on the the world we live in.
arkmundi
10 MW
car-free and child-free, alright, love itcal3thousand said:
FeralDog
100 W
dogman said:
This is article is like telling a fat kid what his favorite sausage is made out of --- lips , eyelids, and arseholes.
Mining rare earth metals is good? for the environment --- if it is done with sustainable hemp fibers, and it uses poor Campesino's or willing Chinese children eager to learn the benefits of working like dogs to produce goods for the industrialized world.
Wanna save the planet ?... that's easy ---. "Don't reproduce" ? Hell dogman , that message should be erected in Spanish on the border, at the entrance to trailer parks, and posted on billboards all over the inner city. Reproduction is the #1 worldwide activity of people whom the World can least afford to do it. Baby Mamas' ain't popping out a lot of nuclear physicist, but the Thug World is exponentially growing, and there is a growing over-abundance of grilled teeth rap stars and Joe Dirt meth heads.
Lack of reproduction by intelligent and hard working people will NOT "save the planet".
If you are intelligent, have good genetics, and want to Save The Planet ----best bet is to start screwing (or diddle yourself to the sperm bank) to produce the planet's future intelligent leaders to wisely guide the masses .
I am sure Elon Musk of Tesla is screwing a genetically beautiful super-model babe right now, and he probably has his super sperm frozen in a cryogenic lab (with Lithium Battery back-up). :wink:
Elon Musk ---selling Green so HE can make more $$$ green
You know when we are winning
when the misinformation machine ramps up
They tried the same thing when the prius sales started to exploded
The had Rush on AM radio run the same story for months
That the prius polluted more than a hummer
Considering dirty nickel mining
Still to this day fools still believe the lies
It is hard to fight as they are not 100% lies
Mining is dirty
Everthing causes can
For sure
More like reality distortion
the topic is too complex
Long term thinking is a must
batteries can be 99% recycled
Now the machine will get people to believe
Electric cars cause cancer
It is true
The tesla model s kills babies
Fact check it
Believe me
The other meme they are spreading
Is that the emf from the model s controller switching
Causes cancer
Your baby in the back seat will die!
Hahah
Really getting desperate
We are winning
when the misinformation machine ramps up
They tried the same thing when the prius sales started to exploded
The had Rush on AM radio run the same story for months
That the prius polluted more than a hummer
Considering dirty nickel mining
Still to this day fools still believe the lies
It is hard to fight as they are not 100% lies
Mining is dirty
Everthing causes can
For sure
More like reality distortion
the topic is too complex
Long term thinking is a must
batteries can be 99% recycled
Now the machine will get people to believe
Electric cars cause cancer
It is true
The tesla model s kills babies
Fact check it
Believe me
The other meme they are spreading
Is that the emf from the model s controller switching
Causes cancer
Your baby in the back seat will die!
Hahah
Really getting desperate
We are winning
granolaboy
100 W
"...the only time an EV battery scored better than a plug-in hybrid-electric vehicle's battery is..."
What's the difference between an EV battery and a plug-in hybrid-electric vehicle battery?
What's the difference between an EV battery and a plug-in hybrid-electric vehicle battery?
liveforphysics
100 TW
I've not had the chance to tour Pansonic's cell manufacturing facilities yet, but have seen a half dozen other Tier 1 cell manufactures facilities.
The environmental impact doesn't come from the cell mfg process. It's dialed in to have zero dangerous waste materials, and every process involves solvent uses capture/reclamation in vacuum dryer ovens. The cathode/anode slurry dispersion solvents are reclaimed and re-distilled to purify it and is re-used in a closed loop system. The whole process is contained in a humidity and temperature controlled clean-room type facility. You take in dry metal oxide powder ingredients and some drums of extremely high purity solvents, and rolls of copper and aluminum foil and laminated plastic aluminum foils (or little stamped metal cans), and some electricity (and it's not nearly as much energy as people think, the process has no high-energy steps involved), and you end up with pouches or can's as the output of the factory, along with the die-cutting scrap and things which goes straight back to the foil MFG's for recycling.
The concept that mining Lithium is some big environmental impact, or even that Lithium is a substantial cost or component of Lithium ion batteries is a puzzle to me. Making Lithium carbonate is mainly done with direct solar heating in big troughs dug with bull dozers, and stirred occasionally as the brine dries. Most mined Lithium is used in ceramic glazes and colored glass and things rather than batteries.
There is far more Nickel used as alloying agents in the high performance steel alloys in an ICE's crankshaft and con rods and valves etc than is used in a Tesla battery.
With respect to cobalt, yes it sucks that it performs so damn well in a battery yet is a PITA to mine and hence is costly and has some environmental impact. Possibly similar environmental impact in mining and extracting and processing the couple pounds of Cobalt in a Tesla pack as a gas car burning a couple tanks of fuel (though not nearly as much energy wasted as burning the couple tanks of fuel).
There was a time early in the infancy of LIB construction when there were no solvent reclamation and cobalt oxides were a high percentage of the cell weight (now it's just a small fraction, but soon none will be used at all), and the processes were crude and dirty. Thankfully, it's simply not efficient or cost effective to make them that way anymore, and modern LIB's construction is very low environmental impact.
The environmental impact doesn't come from the cell mfg process. It's dialed in to have zero dangerous waste materials, and every process involves solvent uses capture/reclamation in vacuum dryer ovens. The cathode/anode slurry dispersion solvents are reclaimed and re-distilled to purify it and is re-used in a closed loop system. The whole process is contained in a humidity and temperature controlled clean-room type facility. You take in dry metal oxide powder ingredients and some drums of extremely high purity solvents, and rolls of copper and aluminum foil and laminated plastic aluminum foils (or little stamped metal cans), and some electricity (and it's not nearly as much energy as people think, the process has no high-energy steps involved), and you end up with pouches or can's as the output of the factory, along with the die-cutting scrap and things which goes straight back to the foil MFG's for recycling.
The concept that mining Lithium is some big environmental impact, or even that Lithium is a substantial cost or component of Lithium ion batteries is a puzzle to me. Making Lithium carbonate is mainly done with direct solar heating in big troughs dug with bull dozers, and stirred occasionally as the brine dries. Most mined Lithium is used in ceramic glazes and colored glass and things rather than batteries.
There is far more Nickel used as alloying agents in the high performance steel alloys in an ICE's crankshaft and con rods and valves etc than is used in a Tesla battery.
With respect to cobalt, yes it sucks that it performs so damn well in a battery yet is a PITA to mine and hence is costly and has some environmental impact. Possibly similar environmental impact in mining and extracting and processing the couple pounds of Cobalt in a Tesla pack as a gas car burning a couple tanks of fuel (though not nearly as much energy wasted as burning the couple tanks of fuel).
There was a time early in the infancy of LIB construction when there were no solvent reclamation and cobalt oxides were a high percentage of the cell weight (now it's just a small fraction, but soon none will be used at all), and the processes were crude and dirty. Thankfully, it's simply not efficient or cost effective to make them that way anymore, and modern LIB's construction is very low environmental impact.
Giovanni LiCalsi
100 W
The oil corporations have their propaganda machine churning because they realize that oil is about to become a commodity and will end its use as a currency. When an EV owner installs PV solar panels on their roof, it really greens things up and localizes the electric grid.
Italy has zero population growth. The Vatican should be an advocate of zero population growth throughout the world if the are for saving souls.
Italy has zero population growth. The Vatican should be an advocate of zero population growth throughout the world if the are for saving souls.
liveforphysics said:
How did you get a tour of tier one cell plants? How do *I* get a tour of tier one cell plants? The description you gave here about the way that they create a closed loop in the manufacturing process is interesting and I would like to know more.
TheBeastie
1 MW
Ok if I choose to believe such an article I guess I have to say come on super capacitors! Super caps are the future.
Most news headlines and stories these days seem to be packed with more and more rubbish just to get people to read it and score that click.
I think the internet has taken twisted views of the world to new levels as news and article writers can see accurately what brings in the clicks and it's the best worded twisted rubbish that does it.
It reminds me of the Fukushima reports were so rubbish, looks like NO ONE is going to die from the Fukushima disaster, it's just an expensive mess, but there are still people out there live of basic news headlines who will tell you hundreds of millions of people are going to die.
This article was worth posting as it's incredibly focused topic for our forum but I am sometimes disappointed by some of the news articles that get posted here on ES as I am shocked at what some people are willing to sit and read and believe, I think if one country in the world should be evolving above garbage news it's the people of the USA.
Most news headlines and stories these days seem to be packed with more and more rubbish just to get people to read it and score that click.
I think the internet has taken twisted views of the world to new levels as news and article writers can see accurately what brings in the clicks and it's the best worded twisted rubbish that does it.
It reminds me of the Fukushima reports were so rubbish, looks like NO ONE is going to die from the Fukushima disaster, it's just an expensive mess, but there are still people out there live of basic news headlines who will tell you hundreds of millions of people are going to die.
This article was worth posting as it's incredibly focused topic for our forum but I am sometimes disappointed by some of the news articles that get posted here on ES as I am shocked at what some people are willing to sit and read and believe, I think if one country in the world should be evolving above garbage news it's the people of the USA.
dogman dan
1 PW
FWIW, I didn't mean to say anything about who should reproduce and who should not. And,
I'm not so smart the world needs another me. So I didn't make one.
I'm not so smart the world needs another me. So I didn't make one.
Harold in CR
100 kW
That article was posted for all to read about the propaganda, and, at what lengths those that make up these article , will go to. Don't believe for 1 minute, that I believe any of it.
Hillhater said:
The Tesla batteries are non-toxic so even if you were stupid enough to dump it after the range had decreased it wouldn't have any environmental impact. All the other types of lithium chemistry are probably the same too.
The vast majority of a modern EV battery, if not all of it, is recyclable. Because they are mostly metals it is much more economically preferable to do so rather than mine and purify raw ore.
Once we have enough batteries - terrawatt hours of storage - it can become a closed-loop manufacturing process. The more batteries in the world the more energy efficient the production becomes. The more renewable energy we have, the less the footprint.
Right now it is as bad as it will ever be - it will only improve from here out.
Harold in CR
100 kW
I recently read an article about the last remaining lead mine, in the USA, was shut down.
liveforphysics
100 TW
bronz said:
A principal responsibility of my occupation involves evaluating Lithium Ion cell mfg processes and cell QC and handling etc. If you wish to also tour them, I would recommend getting into the EV battery design/development industry, or become friends with someone who works at a factory or something.
It's closed loop in a proper LIB mfg by necessity. It's really expensive and wasteful to constantly be drying air to -60degC dew-point or lower to ensure you've condensed out all the available humidity, or do inert gas purged production lines etc, but you can NOT accept humidity in the cells or they are doomed to be puffers even just sitting on the shelf. This means closed loop environmental control is already present on these stages of the battery line, and to have a solvent vapor trap it only takes a cold-finger condenser in the air circulation path (followed by a heater) and you can control the vapor concentration to both improve drying rates and reclaim solvent. I don't know how the process for cleaning the solvent works after it's collected, but they seem to have it dialed.
liveforphysics said:A principal responsibility of my occupation involves evaluating Lithium Ion cell mfg processes and cell QC and handling etc. If you wish to also tour them, I would recommend getting into the EV battery design/development industry, or become friends with someone who works at a factory or something.
It's closed loop in a proper LIB mfg by necessity. It's really expensive and wasteful to constantly be drying air to -60degC dew-point or lower to ensure you've condensed out all the available humidity, or do inert gas purged production lines etc, but you can NOT accept humidity in the cells or they are doomed to be puffers even just sitting on the shelf. This means closed loop environmental control is already present on these stages of the battery line, and to have a solvent vapor trap it only takes a cold-finger condenser in the air circulation path (followed by a heater) and you can control the vapor concentration to both improve drying rates and reclaim solvent. I don't know how the process for cleaning the solvent works after it's collected, but they seem to have it dialed.
I'm not planning to work in the EV business unfortunately. However, your descriptions of these factories are downright pornographic! Thanks for sharing your insights man. 8)
liveforphysics
100 TW
Arlo1 said:
Yes it is Arlo. :-(
I don't know what is up with the recent anti-EV propaganda. I suppose it's a good sign gas is aware if it's pending inevitable obsolescence, but just lame to see the disinformation campaign BS.
Man I have some oil field guys still on FB as "friends" from back when I lived in northern Alberta. I can't believe how out of touch they are. And I think its partially their own ignorance along with the circle jerk of people they associate with that keep the false propaganda machine going. But I am constantly battling these guys. For instance one guy posted all of this in the last week. The one with Charlie from the Chocolate factory I usually respond with some specs and a Link to Rimac or Tesla and then as the convo goes I use Zero info and keep going and no matter what I debunk all the myths but then they basically say the size of their penis wont allow them to ride/drive anything green even when I point out I don't doo it because its green I doo it because its better.liveforphysics said:
Here is a few links and pictures. You guys should see how they are jumping all over Neil Young for what he said recently. lol.
Luke we should offer our services to help Neil Young go green with hi motor homes! Think we can get the rig into Dougs shop??
BTW the truck is the average truck you see In northern Alberta You don't fit in with cars. When I drive the little Pink CRX and people ask me why I say I'm making up for something
actually I drove it to my Job for 3 weeks last summer you guys would have laughed I dove to and from earing a wife beater and go out to get greeted buy BIG burly Harley owners who are proud of their motorized jewelry as they hand it over to me to work on lol You should have seen the looks on their faces as they saw what Car I was driving. When they ask me what bike I ride I try to politely tell them I frocking hate Harley and what it stands for lol then say im working on some fast electrics and have a couple done etc.
http://www.calgaryherald.com/entertainment/Corbella+Neil+Young+chooses+comfort+over+convictions/9406082/story.html
[youtube]4DcnyBdlwQ4[/youtube]
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