How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

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How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Feb 12 2014 6:19pm

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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Feb 12 2014 6:20pm

Universal Rules of Travel:
RULE ONE (for ANY vehicle operation in any atmosphere, aka "space"): NEVER DO HARM.
RULE TWO: NEVER TRUST (yourself, but especially not any other creatures, etc.)
Corollary: EG, your own and other vehicles, on land called the "terrain", etc. Most "stuff" will ALWAYS "change"/"wear" (and wear "out" and/or "break"), if not maintained or replaced as needed or desired). So, one should ALWAYS HAVE A BACKUP PLAN and ALLOW FOR "CONTINGENCIES" (or be prepared to suffer the consequences).

RULE THREE: NEVER EXCEED PRUDENT VEHICLE OPERATING SPEEDS. (See Rule One, above.)
RULE FOUR: BE AWARE (Of other creatures and things eg your own vehicle operating indicators.)
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Feb 12 2014 6:50pm

BTW... I am not sure whether the above "rules" are accurate or complete, but... notice anything "missing"?

Two "things" maybe.

1) EDUCATION (For the safety of operators, their passengers, but especially other animals and things in "travel".)

and
2) ENFORCEMENT and PENALTIES (When "things" go "wrong", and so they perhaps do never happen again, plus as a warning to others.)
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Feb 12 2014 7:03pm

With adequate instruction, and correct "enforcement" ("penalties"), any "rules" should be minimal, and really only an after-thought.

Agreed?
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Feb 12 2014 8:45pm

Of the two (?) remaining points, it is maybe EDUCATION watt is waaaay more important that "enforcement", or "penalties", yes?
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Feb 12 2014 10:38pm

Nobuddy here on the Alt. Planet???

OK. So, lets sorta chuck "enforcement", or "penalties" out the window, so to speak. And talk about EDUCATION, as being waaaaay more important for ANYBUDDY that contemplates "piloting" a vehicle in pubic (sp? "space.

Ya maybe gotta make learning (aka "education") really, really, REALLY *important*, and hard to "get a pass", yes?
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Feb 13 2014 6:14am

BTW... `Been stumbling around (again) here on the Alt. Planet of ES, and have come across the thread "If you could reset the speed/power limit what would it be?", here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=40903

... started waaay back in June, 2012... By one of those from the Land of Oz (who none-the-less looks strangely familiar to me).

However, that thread ultimately described by one as a "can of worms", and by another as "toxic". Yet one sly old dog sorta wrapped that thread up "Always interesting to see how a thread progresses beyond the original discussion".

Anyway... I just thought I might throw that thread into this "stew", for wattEVer it may be worth.
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Feb 13 2014 2:58pm

So... `Been poking around... It's been many decades since I had a vehicle (car) operators licence in the province of Ont.

From here (re getting a vehicle operators "license" in the whole province of Ontario, Canada):
http://www.ontario.ca/driving-and-roads ... ew-drivers
Get a G driver’s licence: new drivers

If you are barely over the human age counting 15 earth years, you can apply for driver’s licence in Ontario. As a new driver, you will need to practice driving and gain experience over time (maybe for years, AFTER you already have your "drivers license"). For most people, the two-step process takes about 20 months to finish. Here’s how you get a driver’s licence.
And:
Driving in Ontario

To drive on Ontario roads, you need to:
• carry a valid driver’s licence, at all times
• have a valid owner’s permit, licence plate and insurance
• obey traffic laws and drive safely (caution, may involve some "inconveniences")
And:
Licence types

Ontario has 15 types of licences. Each licence certifies you to drive a specific type of vehicle. To drive a car, van or small truck, you will need a G class licence.

All licences come with "certain conditions".
Oh oh.

So, there is no chance anyone might wish to operate some different "type" of vehicle. (Or know or care how they operate and are operated.)

Continues:
Licence Types

In Ontario, there are 15 different licence classes. Each one qualifies you to drive a "different type" of vehicle. The class of licence you have must "match" the "type" of vehicle you are driving. A driver MAY hold a licence in more than one class.
Then:
Apply for a driver’s licence

To apply for a driver’s licence in Ontario, you need to:
• be at least 16 years old
• pass an eye test
• pass a written test about the rules of the road and traffic signs

Once you pass these tests, you get a G1 licence. You are considered a beginner driver and need to practice driving and gain experience over time.
Great! Grandma can teach me! (She hasn't had a "boo boo" in weeks!)

And:
Learning to drive: graduated licensing

Once you pass your eye and written tests, you get a G1 licence. Before you can get a full G licence, you have to:
• finish two learning levels: G1 and G2.
• pass two road tests

This process is called “graduated licensing.” It is designed to give new drivers time to practice and gain driving experience over time.

You have up to five years to finish the whole process. After five years, if you do not get your full G licence, you will need to start over.
Thank the gawds! (More time than it took me to struggle through "high school"!)

And:
G1 licence

By law, when you have a G1 licence, you must:
• maintain a zero blood alcohol level (no alcohol in your blood)
(Ed: Thank the gawds they don't test for that "other stuff"!)

• make sure every passenger with you wears a properly working seatbelt
• not drive between midnight and 5 a.m.
(Only can operate the vehicle while others are rushing to get to work, or home, etc. Of course, those pesky pedestrians, cyclists will complicate things. Hope the paint doesn't get scratched!)
• not drive on 400-series highways or high-speed expressways (e.g., 401, Queen Elizabeth Way (QEW), Gardiner Expressway) (Get used to operating vehicles at slow speeds, bumper-to-bumper.)

• drive with a fully licensed driver who has: ◦ at least four years of driving experience
(And no more than 20 accidents... including those not "on record".)
◦ a blood alcohol level of less than .05 (if this person is 21 and under, their blood alcohol level should be zero)
(Blood Alcohol Concentration? Are folks of Irish extraction exempted?) So I took the test:
http://www.alcoholhelpcenter.net/Progra ... alone.aspx

Hurray! I passed! (Of course I may have lied about my 300lb "girth".

And to the question "How many drinks have you had since you started drinking?", the truth is, I've nEVer counted. Better just say One. But hey. They say "practice makes perfect"?)

The driver accompanying you must be the only other person in the front seat. If you are driving with a driver instructor certified in Ontario, you can drive on any road.

*In most cases*, you practice with your G1 licence for 12 months.


Oh oh... and the tough stuff:
G1 road test

The G1 road test is the first of two you need to take as a new driver.
• you can take your first road test after 12 months with a G1 licence
• this exam tests basic driving skills (e.g., turning left and right, stopping, parking, hitting a cyclist)
• once you pass, you get your G2 licence

If you finish an government-approved driver education course, you can take your first road test after just eight months.
For fun, here:
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/ ... oked.shtml

... the list of "Revoked Driving Schools". A looong-ish list of driving "schools" that are no longer on the Ministry's list of "approved" schools.

Man, it goes on and on:
G2 licence

After passing your G1 road test, you get a G2 licence. You practice with your G2 licence for 12 months. You can now drive:
• without another experienced driver in the car
(Yippee! No more "supervision" in the vehicle!)
• on all Ontario roads
• at any time of the day, in most cases

You must still:
• have a zero blood alcohol level
• carry only as many passengers as there are working seatbelts

If you are 19 and under, some other restrictions still apply.
Oddly, no mention about how long those "belts" need to be. (Hehe)

And on and on (probably imagined by an accountant):
What happens if I fail a G1 or G2 road test?

If your G1 licence is not expired: you can try the road test again.
If your G1 licence is expired: you will need to start all over and pay the test fees again.
If your G2 licence is about to expire: you can take your G1 road test again and get five more years as a G2 to finish the process.
Videos
Getting your Ontario driver’s licence (Episode 1: get started)
Oh thank the gawds! A series of helpful videos! (For those that maybe have to learn complicated stuff in the engrish etc language. Words like STOP, and SLOW.)

And at the bottom of that page (finally! I could use a nap!) misc helpful links, plus a pic of our smiling Glen Murray! (Ontario Minister of Transportation)
glenmurray.jpg
glenmurray.jpg (17.77 KiB) Viewed 2793 times
"We’re determined to eradicate drinking and driving, etc."

Phew! Not a word about driving and drinking.
L
Last edited by LockH on Feb 18 2014 8:28am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by Falco » Feb 18 2014 4:43am

I think there can be one golden rule for all ebikes.
With this rule followed you can do anything you want with one. 80kw ebike... no worries :P 107mph.. Awesome :twisted:
RULE 1: Do no harm otherwise you stand before party you have harmed in 100% unlimited personal liability.

If your not prepared to take responsibility for your actions then I think 100watts and 15km/h electric assist is all your admitting you can handle. I know I wouldnt like to be harmed because someone who was going faster then that and then would not take responsibility for their actions.
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Feb 18 2014 8:51am

Hehe... " stand before party you have harmed in 100% unlimited personal liability. "

Perhaps we might call that the "aftermath"... And that comes AFTER the vehicle operator gets "nabbed" (first ya have to catch her - well, I suppose it could be a guy too - "in the action").

Hate to say this, but perhaps today the tech exists to make most "public" (sp?) space "watch-able" by CCTV etc. Thinking here of empty cars and equipment and most animals that can't speak for themselves should they be injured or killed by some other vehicle operator. Perhaps it might be said that operating a *private* vehicle in a *public* space is a privilege, never to be abused?

I'm not sure I don't trust most equipment and animals and plants more than I do the human animal. :(
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by Falco » Feb 18 2014 9:20pm

The way i see it is if your prepared to take personal responsiblity for your actions the you will make responsible decisions to prevent your own loss. By not having someone else pay for your mistakes(insurance company, government, family members ect) you will focus more on not making them.
The problem with enforcement is it creates this idea that you dont have to be responsible unless you are caught by enforcers. Getting caught by the person harmed doesnt seem to phase irresponsible people these days and also that doesnt stop them getting in a car and getting insurance because they have a 'licence'. This is the biggest flaw in the whole current system. Regulations.. if everyone looked into who they actually apply to they would probably be very surprised...
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Feb 18 2014 9:59pm

IF you're prepared to take personal responsiblity for your actions...

(That's a big IF...) Hehe

Perhaps one "problem" with "enforcement" is that it is needed at all?

Perhaps all "effort" should be put into PREVENTION, instead? Make "schooling" to get that first operators license so onerous that ANYbuddy might think very hard before they "take the leap" and abandon pubic (sp?) transportation with a PROFESSIONAL driver, yes?
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by Falco » Feb 18 2014 11:18pm

And if your not then 100watts and 15km/h is the limit. You should also have to wear a sign that says your a danger to the public and not prepared to change :lol:
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Feb 19 2014 12:07am

"And if your not then 100watts and 15km/h is the limit."

NOOOO! (And I thought losing a digit - needed to pick ones nose, etc - would be punishment enough...)
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by Falco » Feb 19 2014 6:54am

LockH wrote:"And if your not then 100watts and 15km/h is the limit."

NOOOO! (And I thought losing a digit - needed to pick ones nose, etc - would be punishment enough...)
Lol :lol:
Your one funny aware guy my friend :)
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Feb 19 2014 7:46am

Hehe... I AM worried that Maestro DMs puppy dogs might miss out on some flavoured treats (one theory, that too many animals have already been injured and killed by the horseless carriage - operators, such that some might like to see/taste some "payback").

But in all seriousness, it seems to me we are maybe dealing with a continuum w/regards to operating private vehicles through pubic (sp?) "space".
1000) Education/training
10) Operation
1) "Enforcement"/Correction

In that order of cost/priority. And that ANY "rules" sorta overlay these three "stages" of life (time spent traveling).

The "trick" maybe to enforcement/correction is to minimize cost, and to maximize... "correction" (and to "help educate" others at the same time. 24hrs/day).
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Feb 21 2014 7:12am

Well... still no comment from any other denisons of the Alt. Planet???

I realize most here may never visited that island society in the Atlantic Ocean. (Neither have I, although I did live for many years in another island community billed as "car free", watt some might say is "utopian".)

But many here on the Spheroid Planet (watt seems to spin endlessly) might agree the current situation regarding the "rules of travel" is maybe DYSTOPIC. (In an earlier thread on ES by the same name, "conversation" seems to have "dried up" as others for a time may have dithered about adding yet more rules and definitions to the current situation.)

Earlier in this thread, one said in part "one golden rule for all ebikes", so I wish to reiterate, this thread is intended to dicuss ONE universal approach to ALL vehicular travel across ALL pubic (sp?) spaces.

BTW, with regards to land travel by "piloting" an electramaterrific thingee, one theory is that many (most?) may find "getting around" faster (and for waaay cheaper) than the 20th-century horseless carriages watt clog many of our city roads already. (And like cliff jumping, it's all very much fun. It's only the sudden stop at the bottom where things tend to get a bit "awkward". So in some sense, speed does kill. Perhaps it really is better to SLOW down and smell the tulips - as someone from the nether regions may have once noted.
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Feb 22 2014 12:32pm

So... To "graduate" to finally getting an operators license (circumscision optional), one might go through maybe years of study and experience "driving" different vessels (sorry, "vehicles"), plus probably more than one examination.

So for example, perhaps early on, one trick question. (Straight out of the Ebikers Manual.)

Do you promise nEVer to burn fossil fuels for personal transport?

(Hint: Huge fail for wrong answer. Applicant nEVer gets to pass "go" when the light turns green, etc. Also, applicant must contribute some change into a "cuss box" - proceeds to go to the Alt. Planet. Said funds may or may not be used at least in part in frivolous gaiety and riotous living. Applicant gets circumcised anyway.)
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by Falco » Feb 22 2014 5:55pm

LockH wrote:So... To "graduate" to finally getting an operators license (circumscision optional), one might go through maybe years of study and experience "driving" different vessels (sorry, "vehicles"), plus probably more than one examination.
I find it funny we all seems to think that education is what is needed for almost everything. Yet almost all our childhood we go to schools. When we graduate we know nothing but have grown a huge ego and think we do. I can honestly say school was like a prison for me for 12years. It doesnt prepare you for anything. I say make government envolevment in schooling a crime and brain washing children.. sorry i meant schooling children optional. This we lead those who want to learn to be able to go think for them selves.
Lets stop telling people what to think and just teach them how to think and figure things out for themselves.
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Feb 22 2014 6:19pm

I had some GREAT teachers in school. One of the best for the equivalent of 1st year university chemistry ("advanced classes" in my last year of "high school"). We had a key to let ourselved into the classroom. Used to make fun stuff like iodine-based contact explosive (just don't let it dry before use) and 200-proof alcohol.

I still like to learn. Lots of odd stuff. As more and more is added to the World Wide Wait (sp?), I don't have to cut down trees anymore (see "paper"). Currently I am reading yet again the book "The cane as a weapon", by Andrew Chase Cunningham.

My "problem"? I actually LIKE being corrected in anything I say. Or "investigating" what others say.

Perhaps one reason to go to *any* "school" is that sometimes the "teachers" know a lot more and (or care more) than the parents do themselves.

After high school, I went to more than one "Institute of Higher Drinking".
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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Feb 22 2014 8:47pm

BTW... A current ES thread "Local laws limiting power and speed", here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=57539

(One might expect perhaps to read the usual gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands. AKA how to select the least bad of a horrible lot, without perhaps recognizing the *real* dangers on our roads, etc.)
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Architectonic   1 kW

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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by Architectonic » Feb 25 2014 4:51am

Step 1: Ban privately owned personal cars and motorcycles. Allow commercial vehicles only for special uses where ebikes are not useful.
Enforce strict liability for commercial vehicle drivers, implement new safety rules for heavy motorised vehicles such as always stopping and giving way to pedestrians etc before turning right (in RHD regions).

Step 2: Weight limits of ebikes to a maximum of about 40kg.

Step 3: Get rid of all traffic lights and replace with roundabouts or regular crossings where applicable.

Step 4: two types of zones, one where ebikes have priority, the other where pedestrians have priority.

...

Enjoy e-bike utopia (or anarchy).

:wink:

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LockH   100 GW

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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Feb 25 2014 9:21am

Oh oh... Somebuddy used the B word. ("Ban")

Ya know, it's been a looong time since I have listened to the Blockheads (and Ian Dury) and his 1970s anthem song "Sex & Drugs & Rock & Roll", but at one point there was a rumour going around that the word "ebike" has one too many syllables in it. That it isn't "catchy enough" a word for his song title. (Hehe)

Personally I am NOT a big fan of the "B" word.

Apart from the maybe "cardinal rule" so far, a corollary might be "*NEVER* GET CAUGHT" (doing any "bad" behaviour. Hey, it has *always* worked for me all MY life, eh)?

At least, some may agree any "rules" may be... less than completely "appropriate" for ALL situations, ALL the time?

EG, has ANYONE not been *tempted* by a situation when the "coast was clear" (not just talking to any sailors here) at a red *stop* light, but the cross street traffic etc. on foot or on wheels, etc. was see-able... if there WAS any? Any at all?

Weight "limits"? So, no more paying customers in my handy-dandy rickshaw that I pull behind my tricycle with electric assist motor???

No pulled cart anything??? Geee... Suddenly, my ebike doesn't seem so practical for all purposes...

(My "monster-sized" friend maybe has another reason why they have to lose all that... lard... you know, if it were not for that medical thingee.)

Good points though, re ROADS design and construction!

I am pretty sure though, that any animals ("pedestrians", etc) must *ALWAYS* have "priority".
ES changed my life (for the waaaaay better).

Eff. June, 2014 Phoenix Ebike Promotions

(Current ride? High speed lawn chair.)
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=57408

Phoenix Ebike Promotions conversion kit (work in progress. More drink holders, etc etc)
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=60564

Joined yer local chapter of EA yet?
(Ebikers Anonymous - Where we're all miserable failures, but the parties are hilarious...)

Architectonic   1 kW

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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by Architectonic » Feb 27 2014 2:31am

LockH wrote:No pulled cart anything??? Geee... Suddenly, my ebike doesn't seem so practical for all purposes...
I didn't say no pulling of trailers etc (just the ebike itself is <40kg).

I'd also like to include a special class of heavier ebikes for commercial use (deliveries etc).

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LockH   100 GW

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Re: How would you write ideal ebike regulations (Part 2)

Post by LockH » Mar 15 2014 1:38pm

I see conventional thinking maybe has reappeared on the defective Part One of this thread:
"As many want all the benefits of bike paths and trails, you've got to limit the speed."

... "speed limits"... That ignore the experience and capabilities of some vehicles and their operators. Weather conditions, whether day or night. Etc?
ES changed my life (for the waaaaay better).

Eff. June, 2014 Phoenix Ebike Promotions

(Current ride? High speed lawn chair.)
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=57408

Phoenix Ebike Promotions conversion kit (work in progress. More drink holders, etc etc)
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=60564

Joined yer local chapter of EA yet?
(Ebikers Anonymous - Where we're all miserable failures, but the parties are hilarious...)

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