ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by dnmun » Sep 13 2014 1:52pm

auto paint shops use 'metalprep' which is a dilute phosphoric acid solution that will remove the rust and then leave behind an iron phosphate which you can wash off and dry right away before it starts to rust again. the metal may be stretched thin by the stamping press too so it is thinner in that fillet where it turns. i really like metalprep.

that is the land of salted roads and rusted cars. i had a honda from detroit and the entire undercarriage was totally rusted out so bad i could not jack it up without pushing hole through the body.

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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by marty » Sep 14 2014 11:11am

Nehmo wrote:Image
The fuel tank and pump are out.
The tank fits in the car more-or-less vertically, with the top of the pic at the top in the installed position in the car. You are looking at the front of the tank. The 2 indentations on both sides are where the straps go.
In this pic, the inside-tank wires to the pump are detached and the plate cover is off. You see the inside of the plate. Many repair sites on the web incorrectly say the pump assembly will attach to the tank with a ring-threaded mechanism. This is not the case on this car, but I have seen it on other Fords. Screws secure the plate in this car.
You can also see the float that attaches to the sender unit, the device that converts the fuel level to an electrical resistance level. IMO, this fragile system could be improved. Perhaps a floating metal-coated ball (or piston) in a perforated tube with the tube having some sensors along the side could be used.
The sock is at the bottom of the pump.
I'm concerned about the discoloration of the tank right of center. Maybe it's a slow leak, and the gas migrates upward as a stain.
On the upper right, there's a screw that secures the filler tube. I probably should have taken this out before taking the tank out. With the filler tube on, the tank still makes its way out, but it might have a bit easier if I had removed it.
To make the required clearance, I ended up having to detach and bend outward both exhaust tails. I detached at the rubber hanger point, and I'm concerned those will be a pain to get back on.
Nehmo wrote:
fechter wrote:...He tried putting some epoxy stuff over the hole, but it failed in a short time...
I ordered and received the new fuel pump via Auto Zone, who shipped it directly to my house (a day late, but who's complaining?). The pump is pump-only, that is, without the sender unit. This means I'll have to replace the pump in its holder, which doesn't involve much more than a couple of hose clamp exchanges. Image
However, I still have the problem of the slow leak in the fuel tank, evidenced by the stains and suspicious history. Actually, I conjuncture the slow leak is the indirect cause of the pump failure.
A modern Ford in-tank fuel pump turns on with the ignition, but then it is programed to turn off in a few seconds if the engine fails to start. Because the pump is cooled by the fuel going through it, this turn-off is a precaution against running a pump in an empty tank where a pump will have no means to cool itself.
But this precautionary feature can be defeated if the anxious driver continues to attempt to start the engine. Each time the driver attempts to start, the pump runs for a few seconds and heats up. Eventually, this process will kill the pump.
Image
Although this job isn't a labor of love, nor it a labor of profit, assembling the whole thing without repairing the tank doesn't sit well with me (as a point of art, actually). At the same time, the additional time & expense of taking the tank to a radiator shop for repair, isn't realistic.
So, I'll rotary wire-brush clean the suspected place of leak; then, I'll paint the area with epoxy; then, I'll use fiberglass fine webbing; then, apply more epoxy. I used this method successfully once before.
But I have one minor problem with doing that procedure. Where do I get the fine fiberglass webbing (as shown in the last pic)? I haven't looked around much yet. And, yes, I know I could find it online somewhere, but I can't wait.
I am not convinced that the tank has a leak. Test don't guess. Could that discoloring on the tank be who knows what that splashed up from the ground? Wash it off and carry on. Water is my favorite solvent.
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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by teklektik » Sep 15 2014 1:38am

Looks like at best you have a pinhole leak. Glass reinforcing is not going directly to an internal rust or seam leak problem.
Try KBS Tank Sealer.
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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by Nehmo » Sep 19 2014 7:54am

I put a layer of epoxy glue over the suspicious points on the fuel tank. I didn't bother to fill-test to locate the leak, and I'm not testing after the repair either. (This is a gratis job, and I've spent way too much time on it already. Besides, I don't see this car being on the road too much longer.)ImageThe pump is now installed inside the tank.
In order to get clearance to remove the tank, I had to bend out the exhaust pipes at the rear of the car. There's currently a lot of spring-tension in them trying to return to their normal position, so I had to secure them. ImageImage
The more observant of you will notice the rust on the disk brake rotors. This means they didn't function, and the car has no rear brakes.
The car, or my friend's purchase of it to be accurate, is an example of pretty looks prevailing over serious function. This mistake-in-values and the fraud to take advantage of it are evils I've been at battle with my whole life.
`~- Nehmo

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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by marty » Sep 19 2014 8:25am

Rust on the disk brake rotors might be because the car hasn't been driven for a while. Suggest a inspection of the brakes before driving car.

Marty says - If you can't stop. Don't go.

BLUE spots on tank looking good!
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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by dnmun » Sep 19 2014 9:42am

get out a can of silver paint and spray those tailpipes to look like chrome and then leave them sticking out the side like that. get some spinner wheel covers too.

take your gratis back in kind.

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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by marty » Sep 21 2014 4:21pm

Nehmoo,
I am not so good at expressing feelings with words but I will try. I get the feeling that you are not giving this car the love that it deserves. Cars have feelings too. When you are deep into the car with grease under your fingernails, the car can sense how you are treating it. If cars had sightly more intelligence they would join a forum and discuss humans.

Perhaps it would help if you gave this car a name? I once knew a Ford Taurus named Boris.

When I made the comment about dead people in the trunk. I was assuming that this was a Black 2005 Lincoln town car that was owned by some Mafia hit men. Now I see that it is Blue. I apologize for the off color comment and I was wrong. I did some research on 2005 Lincoln town car paint colors. Is it Light Ice Blue Metallic, paint code LS?

Try to think of this car as a 5000 pound friend who takes you where ever you want to go. Like people, cars have style. Rub your hands on the paint the way a auto body person uses his hands to feel defects in the body. Wax will make a owner and the car feel better. How does the radio sound?
GROSS WEIGHT 5534 lbs.
CURB WEIGHT 4518 lbs.

Look at this picture I found on the internet. I apologize if the paint color is wrong.
Image
Please NO spinner wheel covers! Those would make this car embarrassed. "Spray those tailpipes to look like chrome and then leave them sticking out the side like that." Yea!
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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by Nehmo » Oct 03 2014 5:13am

marty wrote:...Cars have feelings too.... 2005 Lincoln town car paint colors. Is it Light Ice Blue Metallic, paint code LS?
...
This 1LNHM82W75Y642436 Lincoln Town Car with 280K miles (450K km) is indeed light ice blue metallic, and I do have respect for the design, particularly the rear suspension.
Instead of springs in the rear, these Lincolns have air bags (called air springs), a height sensor, solenoid air valves, and a small compressor. After studying and working-on this system (in another car), I'm convinced it's the best rear suspension available for any car. If you like a comfortable ride, and everything is working, this is the way to go. Metal springs are simply the easiest design. Air bags are superior.
Image
I successfully patched and re-installed the fuel tank with its new pump, and it works.
Instead of using nuts on the downward poking studs HT1 to secure the straps of the tank, I removed the studs and replaced them with bolts (actually new studs & cap nuts). ImageImage
But all is not well. The car idles very rough. I'm looking into it now, and It seems to be missing on more than one cylinder on the right bank. I'll report back.
I bought a Actron OBD II PocketScan code reader cp9125. Image
Unfortunately, this car only yield a blank screen. It gives no codes. (The code reader does work when I hook it up to my own car, a different car from this one.)
Having never used one before, I'm impressed with this code reader. Although it isn't currently useful for this situation, I can see how it could be. I recommend everybody get one.

Oh, as you can see by the bag label, the hardware store is on the honor system for nuts & bolts. You pay what you tell them you owe. But despite temptation, I didn't cheat on these studs and cap bolts. I have an unwavering principle regarding stealing. I don't steal anything under $15.
`~- Nehmo

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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by Nehmo » Oct 04 2014 2:47pm

(Usually, I research something before I post about it to avoid looking ignorant, but when I estimate posting will be my resort anyway, I may post in advance of the research. That's what I'm doing now. This order of steps also allows others to join me in the quest. They may be able to demonstrate they can research/search more effectively than I.)

As your correspondent previously reported, I obtained a code reader, which uses what's called On-board diagnostics (OBD II, II is the more recent version of this system). It's cool. But one can see the system is focused on ICEs. Evehicles will need something like this, but I imagine a assembly-line e-vehicle would have its diagnostics displayed on its own screen.
Anyway, back to the ICE car at hand, the much worked-on Lincoln Town Car from 2005:
Among the codes the PocketScan device displayed were
PO351
PO352
PO353
PO354
P is for powertrain. O indicates something pertaining to vehicles in general, not a specific brand.
35 means a coil electrical problem. 1 indicates the cylinder number, right-front.
Potential causes of a P0351 code include: Short to voltage or ground on COP driver circuit Open on COP driver circuit Loose connection at coil or broken connector locks Bad Coil (COP) Faulty Powertrain Control Module

Hummmmm. These are the same cylinders that seemed to not contribute to the engine speed when I disconnected them (one at a time). What could the problem be to affect the entire right bank?
I just got these codes. (Actually, I just got the code reader functioning on this car. It was previously producing a blank screen. But looking into the problem, I discovered the accessory circuit powers the OBD connector and the cigarette lighter, and the fuse was open.)

I'm thinking about the possible cause of a whole bank failure now.
`~- Nehmo

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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by dnmun » Oct 04 2014 2:55pm

can you measure continuity from the distributor to the spark plug cap? see if they all have the same resistance. you may have pulled the wires loose at the distributor cap.

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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by Nehmo » Oct 05 2014 12:06pm

The complete list of diagnostic codes for this Ford 4.6L are these:
  • PO102 problem with the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor or circuit. A more technical description would be that the MAF circuit had lower than expected voltage (air flow).
    PO174 an oxygen sensor in bank 2 detected a lean condition (too much oxygen in the exhaust)

    PO351 an open or a short is detected in the driver circuit for coil number 1
    PO352 an open or a short is detected in the driver circuit for coil number 2
    PO353 an open or a short is detected in the driver circuit for coil number 3
    PO354 an open or a short is detected in the driver circuit for coil number 4

    P2106 Ford - Throttle Actuator Control System - Forced Limited Power http://engine-codes.com/p2106_ford.html#ixzz3FBppAzjs
    P2195 Lack of HO2S-11 Switch Sensor Indicates Lean
    Possible causes
    • - Faulty Front Heated Oxygen Sensor Bank 1
      - Front Heated Oxygen Sensor Bank 1 harness is open or shorted
      - Front Heated Oxygen Sensor Bank 1 circuit poor electrical connection
      - Inappropriate fuel pressure
      - Faulty fuel injectors
      - Intake air leaks may be faulty
      - Vacuums leaks
(Cylinder 1 is in bank 1)
From what I understand, COP (Coil on Plug) ignition systems, with 2 wires to each COP, have one always + hot wire going to the COPs, and the PCM (Powertrain Control Module) ungrounds the second wire when the spark is to commence.
So it seems I can test to see if one wire is hot as the first test.
ImageImage
`~- Nehmo

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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by dnmun » Oct 05 2014 12:25pm

maybe there is a BAD common ground for all four of those primaries on those little coils.

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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by marty » Oct 05 2014 2:11pm

PO102
PO174
PO351
PO352
PO353
PO354
P2106
P2195

Is this list of codes you see? What are the symptoms? Turn the key. Does the car start? Go for a ride. How does it preform? Give me this information and I will send a email to a real mechanic.

Even though this is not the problem, I would do the easiest thing first. Have you put gas in the tank since you removed and installed it? Does the car run well enough to drive to a gas station? If yes? Go fill the tank with gas. Fill it till the pump stops. Yea fill it all the way. I know gas is expensive but fuel in cars is like food is to people. Read the owners manual for the recommended octane rating.

Also check the oil.
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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by Nehmo » Oct 06 2014 9:50am

dnmun wrote:maybe there is a BAD common ground for all four of those primaries on those little coils.
ImageAs you can see from the wiring diagram, the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) does the job of grounding and un-grounding the Coil On Plugs (COP) to effect the spark. The red wire (right of COPs) is always hot while the engine is in the Run or Start condition.
Thus, the red wire should be hot to the ground, and that's testable. Although the right bank of COPs give failing diagnostic codes, It seems the wiring harness doesn't separate for the 2 banks of cylinders, except possibly at point S136.
Time to get the test light and go out to the car. But maybe I should take a nap first. Image

Edit: OK, I went out to the car, put the ignition key in Run, for a test point I poked a needle through the red wire going to COP #2 (one of the failing ones), and did indeed get a + voltage as I should. I didn't test the other COPs because I expect them to be OK as well.
Thus, since the always-hot side of the COP is as it should be, the problem is not on that side of the COP; the connection from the Power Distribution Box to the COP is good.
Edit #2: In order to test the grounding-&-ungrounding of the wire on the other side of the COP, I attached an AC volt meter between that wire and the + of the battery. Yes, the AC was there; it was lower than I expected, around 3v, but the wiring diagram above is simplified. Actually, the COP contains a transistor that drives the coil, so 3V is adequate.
Thus, all the electric circuit going to the COP is functioning. The next thing to test is the COP itself. I can do a trade between a working cylinder or I can use HEI ignition tester. Image I don't have one. I need one anyway. I'm headed to an auto parts store.
`~- Nehmo

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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by marty » Oct 07 2014 6:01am

You not answering my questions? What are the symptoms? Turn the key. Does the car start? Go for a ride. How does it preform?

Those codes you see might be from problems you no longer have. Running engine on starter fluid, intake manifold episode, more? Try hitting the erase button. Go for a ride. Then hook up the code reader.

My code reader manual explains this better then I can. 2005 Ford might be different. Look in the service manual.
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I uploaded my INNOVA 3100 Diagnostic Scan Tool/Code Reader, manual here for your enjoyment. Sorry about filling up some server somewhere with Kilobytes, Megabytes, Zettabytes or Yottabytes?
3100c.pdf
(7.12 MiB) Downloaded 45 times
Sorry if I am a pest but have you filled the tank with gas?

Semi-related story about by experiences with gasoline. Small engine repair. Lawnmower, generator, etc. If engine don't start and I know that it has been sitting for a year or more. I pour the old gas out and replace it with new gas. 9 times out of 10 this fixes the problem. Engine starts. I have never had this problem with a car or truck.
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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by Nehmo » Oct 07 2014 9:24am

marty wrote:... What are the symptoms? Turn the key. Does the car start? Go for a ride. How does it preform?
I personally bought the regular-octane, which is specified for this engine, gas I used to fill (about 5 US gallons) the tank, and the tank doesn't leak - at least from this level. I haven't actually checked the pressure of the new fuel pump, but I observed the flow coming out of the detached tube to the fuel rail. The flow was strong enough to convince me that that issue is now successfully repaired.
The engine is now missing on all of the right bank of cylinders. The missing is apparent when I detach the COP electrical connectors one by one, and the OBDCodes agree. It would, I suppose, have enough power to make a lame ride, but I don't see how I would gain anything from that test. It would misfire on the ride just as it does in stationary idle.
Actually, at the point of finishing installing the tank (with new pump inside) and lowering the vehicle to its normal standing position, the owner of the car (he's paying for the parts only, and he's 84 - and now showing the beginning signs of senility. But that is a separate non-technical story) took the car for a ride. This was before I tested it thoroughly. He reported it "didn't have power".

I now want to determine the cause of the misfiring, which occurs on all cylinders of the right bank. As I related in my previous post, I have determined the COPs are getting the proper electrical signal (at least one of the failing ones is; I only tested one of them), so now my job is to test the COP itself. The result of this test will indicate a direction in the troubleshooting fork. If the COP fails, then, of course, I'll replace the COP. If the COP is good, then I'll need to look for other explanations. A vacuum test would be my next step then.

I didn't mean to look as though I were ignoring you, and I apologize. I appreciate any help.
`~- Nehmo

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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by marty » Oct 07 2014 3:23pm

PO102
PO174
PO351
PO352
PO353
PO354
P2106
P2195

Is this list of codes you see? I would erase them all and take a new reading in the hope to narrow down the list of possible problems. My guess that you have one problem not 5 or 9 problems. My experience is that it is usually some $50 electronic gismo, sensor or something.

Hows does the air filter look?
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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by fechter » Oct 08 2014 6:48pm

I've seen a little gadget they call a 'blinkie' that's just a LED and a resistor. You place this across the COP wires and look for the LED to blink, indicating power is getting sent to the coil in pulses. It's hard to read short pulses with a meter. An oscilloscope works well if you have one.

Most cars have 12v going to one side of the coil and the other side gets intermittently grounded by the ECU.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by marty » Oct 08 2014 8:51pm

COP = Coil-on-Plug

I am learning :D
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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by dnmun » Oct 09 2014 2:01am

so not a bad ground but maybe a bad high side Vcc.

if the lead from the 12V is loose it would not deliver enuff current for the coil to build up the field? or maybe the 12V lead is shorted to something that drains off the current.

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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by Nehmo » Oct 11 2014 2:15pm

marty wrote:Those codes you see might be from problems you no longer have...
As I mentioned before, this is the first time I've used a On Board Diagnostic code reader. Although the current system, OBD II, was mandatory for vehicles made in the US in 1996, I didn't get acquainted until now because I, being of the used car class, had always dealt with older vehicles. But I'm learning now.

I didn't realize you needed to clear codes before getting a good new reading. Apparently, a condition noted by the reader is "pending" until after existing for a pre-set number of drive cycles, then it matures into a "code". Different conditions and models of vehicles have different pre-set numbers of cycles.
Anyway, I erased the existing codes. I played around with the connector on COP #2. I cleaned the MAF sensor. I then started the engine, and read the codes. Now I'm getting 3 pending codes:

PO102 pending - problem with the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor or circuit.
PO315 pending - an open or a short is detected in the driver circuit for coil #1
PO106 pending - MAP/Barometric Pressure Circuit Range/Performance Problem

I also bought a vacuum gauge and tested the intake manifold vacuum. It seemed steady enough at 14 inches Hg. This is perhaps a bit lower than the suggested 15-22, but I'm not sure one inch is significant.
Image

I also squirted starter fluid all over the place to try to find a vacuum leak. I didn't find anything.

I'm going to play around with the engine some. I'll concentrate on COP #1 to see if there is a signal (on & off ground), a good + battery connection, and I'll test for spark.

I'll re-tighten the intake manifold bolts. As some of you know, I just replaced that. I'm sure I torqued the bolts properly, 19 Ft-Lbs (26 N-m), but who knows? I'll re-torque them.

I welcome suggestions. Basically, it idles bad and doesn't have power. I think it's missing, but I'll double check that.
`~- Nehmo

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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by marty » Oct 11 2014 7:04pm

Nehmo wrote:Basically, it idles bad and doesn't have power.
Something I learned when fixing cars is never listen to the owner of the car. Only look at and listen to the car.

Hows does the air filter look?

I would do what Fechter suggest with the blinkie thing.

The service manual should have some hard to follow and hard to understand instructions on troubleshooting MAF Mass Air Flow and MAP Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor. I have had both of those parts fail on my own car and truck. If I remember correctly? MAF Mass Air Flow sensor failed because I sprayed WD-40 in the throttle body to fix a sticking throttle. Bad MAP Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor caused a 1994 Ford van to surge when sitting at red lights. Felt like someone crashing into the rear of the truck.
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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by fechter » Oct 12 2014 6:08pm

I had a bad MAP sensor on a '89 Bronco drive me nuts. Totally messed up the fuel/air mixture. On that particular model, you could measure the output frequency (it sent out a variable frequency square wave). I found a meter with frequency function and determined that was the problem.

The diagnostic codes can point you to things to check, but do not replace parts unless you can verify a part is bad by some other test. Often times one problem will trigger codes pertaining to something else.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by Nehmo » Oct 13 2014 11:49am

fechter wrote:I had a bad MAP sensor on a '89 Bronco drive me nuts. Totally messed up the fuel/air mixture. On that particular model, you could measure the output frequency (it sent out a variable frequency square wave). I found a meter with frequency function and determined that was the problem.

The diagnostic codes can point you to things to check, but do not replace parts unless you can verify a part is bad by some other test. Often times one problem will trigger codes pertaining to something else.
From the experience I'm having so far, I might have written the same thing. These codes can easily be misleading.

Anyhow, I'm now at something of an impasse. I disconnected & reconnected a bunch of stuff, and I erased the codes again. Now, I get, with a warmed-up engine, 16 inches Hg vacuum, which is in range. And I get no codes. However, the idle is still rough, and if I put it in gear, and I press on the accelerator pedal, the engine will die. If I accelerate while under no load (gear-shift in Park), the engine revs up.
I previously suspected the MAP, Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor, or the MAF, mass airflow sensor, because of pending codes indicating those. I cleaned the MAF, and I searched for the MAP only to find I don't have one. This 4.6L 2005 engine doesn't have the MAP sensor. I disconnected the MAF while the engine was idling and it idled even worse, so I plugged it back in.
But now, as I just said, I'm not getting codes.
I'm not sure what my next step is. Ideas?
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marty   10 MW

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Joined: Apr 19 2007 5:44pm
Location: Buffalo, New York USA
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Re: ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

Post by marty » Oct 13 2014 3:50pm

Back in the old days things were simpler.

Engine needs air - Hows does the air filter look?
Engine needs sparks - Remove and inspect all spark plugs.
Engine needs gas - Measure fuel pump pressure.

Re:
if I put it in gear, and I press on the accelerator pedal, the engine will die.
Are the brakes stuck? Try pushing the car on level ground. Brakes can be seized so bad that the car won't move.

Re:
I disconnected the MAF while the engine was idling and it idled even worse, so I plugged it back in.
Don't do that.

I am not a expert in auto repair. How about a compression test?

Best way to find the MAP sensor is go to or call a auto parts place with knowledge people behind the counter and ask them if your car has one. Looking at a new part in a box is helpful to find the old one.
MARTY
Volt Electric Vehicles
http://www.voltev.com

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