oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Ricky_nz » Apr 25 2015 5:48am

Well after a pretty pain free day i dozed off and woke to a cooling house due to open windows. My leg was aching just like it does in early morning so it looks like i better remember to close windows when its likley to drop below about 10C as thats about where i notice the aching.

The protective bandage over the sergical cut was comeing unstuck so i had to look.
dosent show full length as other end trapped under my brace. I will put the spare bandage on after my shower tomorrow. Just tape this one down some more for now. Brushed away a few spots of dried blood.
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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Ohbse » Apr 26 2015 12:55am

Ouch man, I feel for you. I had a car crash into me on Wednesday before Easter weekend and spent Thursday-monday immobile as a result but nothing compared to yours! Thankfully I got off with no broken anything and not a drop of blood spilled and was straight back to work on the Tuesday. Makes me especially thankful seeing what you're going through.

Just FYI there's zero chance you're going to get stung with an infringement notice for streaming anything via popcorn time, go nuts. The law turned out to be quite burdensome for mass infringement notices sent from copyright holders, few bother anymore and TV content was never a target even in the beginning.

You're right about going through your cap though, I don't know how you manage with only 80gb a month. Wife and I go through 400+ like clockwork. Get well soon.

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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Eskimo » Apr 26 2015 2:26am

That"s exactly same kind of trauma that happened for my both knees when i fell off from my motorcycle back in 2003.
Arthritis will come sooner now when you have that. Bone surfaces are no longer smooth down there. I have arthritis now because of it. It takes around ten years to develop after that kind of damage.
For me it took eight weeks in hospitals, two eight hour operations. It took weeks before they could start operating because we had to wait inflammation to come down. They won"t operate if there"s inflammation going on, risks are too great.
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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Ricky_nz » Apr 26 2015 5:55am

Yep 80GB is a bit small. Stuck on VDSL here. No date for fibre yet :-(. Saving for renovations so no bidget for a bigger data cap.
Eskimo wrote:That"s exactly same kind of trauma that happened for my both knees when i fell off from my motorcycle back in 2003.
Arthritis will come sooner now when you have that. Bone surfaces are no longer smooth down there. I have arthritis now because of it. It takes around ten years to develop after that kind of damage.
yeah not good. I belive mine did not exhibit lots of crushing that is possible at higher energies but yeah not good. I do hope i get it to heal well but i guess some of that comes down to luck. My brother pretty much described it is bad leading to worst case possible knee replacment in future. Having one leg out of action sucks but at least they let me out of hospital to heal at home. Two must have really sucked.

My op was 4 or 5 days after the accident i think. They said it had to be done within 12 days for best healing. They had warned me they might need to make more than one cut but did only one so im guessing i didnt damage too much other than the bone but I guess i will find out over the next few appointments.

To those who think this can only happen on high powered machines my bike has a MAC 10t rear motor with 12FET controller wound up a little. So not overly powered but when the rider weighs more than 3 times the bike it makes controlling the center of gravity tricky, espically when the front comes up too quick LOL.
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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Eskimo » Apr 26 2015 6:20am

My bike was racing-tuned two-stroker. Talking about light front ends...God that was a beast. Nothing...nothing...and then little short of 100hp at once :mrgreen: It weighed some 120kg.
The actual hitting the tarmac went ok, it was all right, but there happened to be a steel light pole on my way when i rolled on the ground...bang, knees first. They called it a high-energy trauma.
Now they ache occasionally if lie down on a sofa too many days or walk too much. E-biking makes aches disappear. Constant light to medium power pedaling is best care for them, they love it.
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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Ricky_nz » Apr 26 2015 7:38pm

Eskimo wrote:My bike was racing-tuned two-stroker. Talking about light front ends...God that was a beast. Nothing...nothing...and then little short of 100hp at once :mrgreen: It weighed some 120kg.
Sounds like a real beast fun / challenging / exciting. its unfortunate that most fun comes with risk LOL.
Eskimo wrote:Now they ache occasionally if lie down on a sofa too many days or walk too much. E-biking makes aches disappear. Constant light to medium power pedaling is best care for them, they love it.
Ahh good to know ebiking helps you.
Since my eyesight isn't good enough to get a driving license I use my ebike for transport so I do hope my knee/leg heals well enough for that to be ok for me too.

I'm definitely starting to get annoyed at sitting around in the house. When you start looking forward to hospital appointments to get out of the house it is getting bad. At least ACC pay for taxis to / from the hospital etc. I have to sit across back seat of Taxi because the brace on my leg has the leg too straight to get in the front. Hopefully they will let me bend my knee a little after the next appointment.

It was a nice sunny day yesterday and I would have loved to take my bike out for a ride round the block but the risk of more serious injury is way too high so I left it parked on the deck :-(.
Definitely don't want to do more damage to the leg.
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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Ricky_nz » Apr 27 2015 10:18pm

Yay, they have adjusted my brace so i can move my knee to 90 degrees :D and said in two weeks i can take the brace off but i have to wait 5 weeks for the next appointment before they will consider if i am allowed to start putting weight on it.

I have been told to keep moving the knee joint as its pretty stiff at the moment. Not hurting much, just stiff but it basically hasent moved since easter saturday.

Just being able to bend the knee makes things so much more comfortable. Sat in front seat of the taxi for the ride home from my hospital appointment rather than spread accross back seat.

Im not sure how the swelling will go so need to keep an eye on it and put the leg up to rest as needed.
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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by biohazardman » Apr 27 2015 10:50pm

Have not been around much lately so I come back to see what's up and this is the first post I read. OUCH! OUCH! OUCH! That is nasty for sure. I don't do wheelies I am to old and beatr up to want to even try. Do nothing like the docs say and when you start out again do it slow and easy so you don't have to go back under the knife. You are in my prayers take care.
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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by dnmun » Apr 27 2015 11:25pm

this is how most people in the USA go bankrupt. either chronic disease or accident requiring surgery and some length of time in the hospital and suddenly you are $200,000 in debt with no way to pay and out of work because of the accident.

loss of home and all savings and then bankruptcy court to try to fend off the hospitals and doctors. you guys in civilized countries do not know how lucky you are. even the little bit of protection with obamacare in the US is still enuff to prevent you from bankruptcy but almost impossible to recover financially and the republicans are determined to take that away yet.

i know one guy working for my old girlfriend to remodel her house who had a stroke and was airlifted to the hospital and spent two days inside before release. $41,000 and no way to pay it off ever just because he thinks obamacare is an evil invention by a black guy so he refused to register for it before he had the stroke. his insurance premiums would have been essentially zero since he has no income. but it is the principal of the thing for some people who are so regressed that they believe the republican line and destroy their own lives to prove it.

another guy, family friend here in portland, had a stoke and was passed out in his bedroom for two days before his brother discovered him or he would have died right there. already 4 months in a nursing home and disabled severely on his right side. his entire inheritance when he receives it will be taken from him and he will be a pauper instead of a millionaire.
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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Eskimo » Apr 28 2015 2:40am

Difference between the systems is sure huge. Eight weeks in hospital did not cost me anything, or some 200 euros if i remember correctly which was some other fee. Medicines did not cost anything, and incurance company paid me pretty good money back. Money-wise i was actually richer after the accident.
Still i can not call it very comfortable experience. Hospitals are noisy as hell. You need earplugs pretty much all the time. Occasional wacos next to you were very interesting company. Totally demented elders screaming for help when there"s nothing wrong, etc. You don"t get any kind of privacy there.
They put my legs on a kind of motorized knee-bending machine. I gained like 5 degrees every week more mobility. 90-degree bend finally felt like wow!. In eight weeks you lose you muscles pretty much, standing still was hard at first. Now they are pretty good considering the situation. Long walks are no good, and nicotine is bad. Nicotine reduces the circulation and causes inflammation.
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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Ricky_nz » Apr 28 2015 5:21am

Yeah definitely interesting comparisons to the us. I had heard a few thing about their sysyem. Our public hospital and ACC system seams to work. every newzealandrr is covered. Definitly nice to have pretty much full income through the 5 weeks i will have off work and then through a transition back to full time work. Along with transport to / from work and no hospital bills. Just a small charge on perscription medacines but thats tiny. Definitly appreciate what we have here.

It dose seem crazy that people would jepordise their financial situation for idology but i guess some people are just way too passionate in their politics.

When i got home from having my leg checkef and my brace adjusted i could get my leg to probably 80deg. Pretty close to 90 but since i have had a busy day without time to rest my leg and knee has swelled a little today so going to have a rest day with Leg up tomorrow since as it swelled the range of motion dropped a little. My knee is stiff but i am encouraged by how far i could move it on the first few goes. I have been told to keep moving it and it will free up more. Basically pretty pain free too. Just very minor aches at times as i had before the brace was adjusted.

Also noticed i can balance way better on my right leg now i have an additional amount of freedom in my left leg. My balance had been getting better as the muscles in my right leg got stronger and i backed off the tramadol. But just being abld to flex thebknee seems to have helped a lot so hopefully i will be able to start using crutches rather than the walking frame as i think they will be more efficient / faster for getting arround when i start back at work
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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Ykick » Apr 28 2015 6:11am

Yeah, I bet folks in more civilized countries can't even begin to comprehend USA poor excuse for a health care system. It's truly shameful they way sick people are used and manipulated for profit.

For example, take an average USA hospital employing roughly 5,000 people. 2500 of those employees work in billing & insurance.

In this country it's no longer about "healing arts" it's about how to shake down desperately sick, ill and vulnerable people for as much money as possible.

Shameful, truly shameful...

All the best Ricky and heal-up soon!
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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by dnmun » Apr 28 2015 10:09am

hospitals are like the torture chambers the CIA used on the arabs. full maxo lights 24/7 and never ending noise and noise and noise. it is a wonder people can survive a hospital stay and then they now have antibiotic resistant bacteria to keep you there forever once you are admitted.

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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Ricky_nz » Apr 29 2015 5:05am

dnmun wrote:hospitals are like the torture chambers the CIA used on the arabs. full maxo lights 24/7 and never ending noise and noise and noise. it is a wonder people can survive a hospital stay and then they now have antibiotic resistant bacteria to keep you there forever once you are admitted.
Yeah I got very little sleep. in the same room was a guy with some vaccum machine that would block about 3 times per hour setting off alarms that sounded exactly like my alarm clock... The night staff didnt know how to fix it.
Eventually I found out they had some ear plugs available on the last night :-(.
That was the first night i had of good sleep in a week. The poor sleep wasn't due to pain, just the noisy and bright environment.
Less beeping during the day but cant sleep then because no one would leave me alone.
The pain killers did help sleep a little during the day but it was always interrupted.

I was really glad to get out of there and back home to some good sleep apart from my cat who was extremely clingy after her first trip to a cattery. She kept trying to sleep on me or push against my broken leg.
She has settled down now but I think she got worried because she had never been away from me for more than 24hours before my accident and then all of a sudden she was just fed by my brother for two days and then sent to a cattery.


Thanks ykick, yes hard for us to understand things over there but from what i have read on here and other places dosnt sound too good. I guess the problem of profit vs looking after people.
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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Ricky_nz » Apr 30 2015 7:16am

Got my knee to bend just past 90degrees this morning while swelling was down.

Had a call from ACC today and it sounds like they are organising me some psyio sessions and are planning for my gradual return to work next month.
Good thing most of my job is a desk job writing software but going out to the test bays might be a pain.

Also the building is pretty big so ive started trying the crutches rather than the frame as my balance seems better now with the knee allowed to bend and reduced use of pain killers. I figure crutches are probably more efficient for bigger distances than the walking frame So might as well start trying to use them and get some practice.

Kind of crazy that i only just realised I have been off work for nearly a month already. I guess the first week in hospital and the weak or two afterwoods were a bit of a blur with painkillers etc.

I have been able to monitor my corporate email with my phone so i get emails from our bug tracking setup showing my bugs being fixed :lol: . The other guys are working pretty hard to meet deadlines.
it is good though because it keeps me in the loop of changes so when i get back i should be able to get straight back into it.
Kinda feel guilty because I should be working on that stuff and the reason im not is because i was having too much fun on my ebike...
but with the injury I've been pretty tired or drugged so wouldent be much use yet.
now the painkillers are needed less i feel a lot better and hopefully the tiredness starts to reduce. I guess my body is burning lots of energy fixing itself.
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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Ricky_nz » May 01 2015 5:04pm

Hi all
got my next appointment at the hospital for 2 June when i should be allowed to start bearing weight on my leg again. This seems too far away cause im already sick of hopping round But i guess since the knee is a pretty important joint that handles a lot of load it needs to be really strong before i can start using it again.

My manager from work dropped round a company laptop with VPN access to work. That combined with remote desktop means i can access my main development machine at work. Not planning on doing a lot but since i wrote a lot of the code they are working on having access to a development environment makes it easier to help others dragged onto the project to help due to my absense. Might fix some simple bugs but it will be limited since i dont have hardware to test on at home.

Gave one guy a 1 hour run down on how a big part works and he should be fine since it's based on something he has worked on before for with some twists. That probably saved him days of looking through code and documents so happy to do that while sitting here provided I'm not too tired.

Still looking foward to doing some part days at work in a about a week and a half depending on what ACC organise with work. I could do those part days at home but i need some different scenery. Sick of looking at my house and garden. Since ACC will cover taxis to/from work i might as well go in from the date the doctor oked.
Over the last week pain and achs etc have subsided which is good. Things have obviously been firming up as the first few weeks lifting the leg to get into bed could cause minor achs but i guess the bone is becomming stronger and stiffer now rather than relying on the plate and screws. Also seems more tolerant to cooler temperatures than it was.

Still a bit of swelling around my knee and of course the numb skin from halfway down my knee cap to a bit further down the leg due to a nerve cut as part of the surgery.
hopefully i will hear about psyio next week But for now I'm making it a bit of a habbit to regularly take my knee through its maximum range of motion as i was instructed to by the doctor.
I can still only bend the knee to about 90 degrees or just over but since there is still some swelling im not too worried.

about the same time i start back at work i am allowed to take the brace off which will be nice because it is causing a bit of a rash on my lower leg.
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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by dnmun » May 01 2015 7:37pm

feel for you man. i got old age beating down on me now and it ain't fun either. started working in the sawmill when i was 15 and done hard labor ever since. closest i ever got to hurt really bad was when a lady pulled out in front of me and i T-boned the side of her car and slid underneath. as soon as i got out from underneath, she just took off like nothing happened. was able to straighten the bike to get to school but could not bear the pain for a few days. this is like a couple orders magnitude higher. physical therapy is gonna hurt too i bet. gonna be winter down there soon so "no bike for you!"

you have to know soup nazi.

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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Ricky_nz » May 03 2015 8:17am

dnmun wrote:feel for you man. i got old age beating down on me now and it ain't fun either. started working in the sawmill when i was 15 and done hard labor ever since. closest i ever got to hurt really bad was when a lady pulled out in front of me and i T-boned the side of her car and slid underneath. as soon as i got out from underneath, she just took off like nothing happened. was able to straighten the bike to get to school but could not bear the pain for a few days. this is like a couple orders magnitude higher. physical therapy is gonna hurt too i bet. gonna be winter down there soon so "no bike for you!"

you have to know soup nazi.
Yeah. Kind of un umplanned hint at what old age could be like...

your accident would have sucked at the time. Bet you had road rash.
I think the good thing about my accident was it was on grass so no road rash to really hurt. Most of it has been annoying ache apart from when the leg had to be moved a few times before the op. The brused up shoulder hurt more than the leg Most the time. The pain meds are pretty good although now just sticking to paracetamol unless its bad because the good stuff makes me less productive...
Definitly expecting some pain when i get the psyio but i want a functioning knee so will have to put up with it.
I do get a few bits of pain When i move my leg as instructed to repeatedly to its limits i figure this is a hint of what psyio will do. Still at just over 90 degrees max bend in leg at the moment.

yeah heading into winter but never gets cold enough in napier for snow so i ride all year round. Rain dosent bother me. Hopeing on 2 june i will get all clear to put weight on the leg again then i might start riding. I cant say i havent been tempted to take the bike out for a ride but every time i remind myself of the consequences of comming off and damaging my partually healed leg and think better of it and try to ignore the bike.
This temtation is mainly from the boredom of sitting round home not feeling like doing anything productive although wanting too and seeing nice riding days outside.

The cold has contributed to my aches i think so ive started running the electric heater more as the walls of my house are uninsulated.

I really need a change of scenery. At least in about 1week ACC will pay for taxis to/from Work. Kind of looking foward to getting out of the house and off the property and doing something useful even if only 4 hours a day to start.

although work chews a lot of time i kind of enjoy writing software to control big power protection equipment used in factories like semiconductor plants etc. Kind of fun to write some software test it on a small test machine then take it out to the high power test bay and run it up to several MW :D.
Theres always the chance of excitement if something goes wrong and the testbay amp meter hits the stop just before someone hits the estop LOL. We try to avoid this but during development its sometimes unavoidable.
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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by amberwolf » May 03 2015 3:52pm

Ricky_nz wrote:Good thing most of my job is a desk job writing software but going out to the test bays might be a pain.
I can't believe you didn't take this chance to build yourself a hotrod wheelchair. :P

(of course, I didn't motorize the one I made for Tiny either, but I thougth seriously about it once the initial panic time about her MG/etc was over, and I am still considering it now even though she may not need it anymore).

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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Ricky_nz » May 03 2015 4:55pm

amberwolf wrote:
Ricky_nz wrote:Good thing most of my job is a desk job writing software but going out to the test bays might be a pain.
I can't believe you didn't take this chance to build yourself a hotrod wheelchair. :P
:lol: i did joke to the nurses and auderlies a few times when i was being wheelied arround the hospital that if i had my way the wheelchair would have a motor and be doing 40kph with front wheels up.
i didnt have access to a wheelchair to modify and for a long time i was way too tired to do anything. My workshop also isnt the most frendly to someone on crutches or a frame so would have been difficult.

good to read of Tinys improvement and hope things keep getting better.
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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Ricky_nz » May 06 2015 3:58am

Another prety good day. Got a full nights sleep. Even slept in and havent needed the afternoon snooze i have been needing. Still a bit tired but not too bad.

Had a woman from workrecovery a company ACC uses to help get people back to work. They have met my employer and discussed what help i need. Sounds like i might end up whith a wheelchair at work because of the 50m ish distance between the test bays and my desk and i get pretty tired at longer distances on my crutches and it also pisses my left shoulder off.
Another concern they had is can i put the 8cal per cm^2 overalls we need to wear in the low power (400V 3phase 300A) test bays but since i will have the brace removed by the time i need them i think i will be able to get them on if im careful and slow. Just need to be carfull because even with the brace off i will still not be allowed to put weight on my left leg).


Sounds like my hours and days will ramp up over a few weeks.

She gave me a few hints on the movements i need to focus on until im wait bearing since she is a physiotherapist. Since i can bend 90 degrees which is apparently pretty good for now but cant quite get the leg straight she said focus on getting it straight as that will help with walking after 2 june. After im allowed to bare weight then i get physio sessions.

Im lucky my employer is pretty flexable and tollerent of my 5 week absense and slow return.
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rwhitenz?feature=mhum
1) Specialized Hard Rock + surviving 1/2 of Elation 300W + Sick Bike Parts freewheel and sprockets + echo cranks.
2) Keewee Stealth dirt jump with MAC 10T rear gear hub

Ohbse   10 kW

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Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Ohbse » May 06 2015 4:05am

What do you do for a job Ricky? Sounds pretty interesting, perhaps something UPS related?

Glad to hear you've got some motion and a plan for getting back into things, great that you're getting support you need.

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Ricky_nz   10 kW

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Joined: Aug 15 2010 6:46am
Location: New Zealand

Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Ricky_nz » May 06 2015 4:13am

Ohbse wrote:What do you do for a job Ricky? Sounds pretty interesting, perhaps something UPS related?
yep writing software to run inverters in different applications primarily power protection so Active voltage condioners, UPSs LV and MV. Statcoms, Frequency converters etc...
The gear we build ranges from 100KW to multi MW size machines

I use to be an electronics technician in telecomms and moved to embedded software. once i switched to software i ended up with my current job writing embedded software for power electronics for a large multinational.
Writing software for power stuff is way more fun than writing software for ADSL exchange cards etc.
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rwhitenz?feature=mhum
1) Specialized Hard Rock + surviving 1/2 of Elation 300W + Sick Bike Parts freewheel and sprockets + echo cranks.
2) Keewee Stealth dirt jump with MAC 10T rear gear hub

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Ricky_nz   10 kW

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Posts: 846
Joined: Aug 15 2010 6:46am
Location: New Zealand

Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Ricky_nz » May 07 2015 4:46pm

Yesterday i focused on getting my leg straight as suggested by the Physiotherapist. It ached a bit and took quite a few tries but by the end of the day i could get my leg straight.
The ache was mainly just while trying to move it further and died away quickly.
I still cant bend much past 90degrees but looks like fully straight is ok so that should help when i start trying to walk on it next month.

While i was swapping to the more basic brace for a shower i took another photo of my legs. The size difference between my calf muscles is now quite noticeable. The right being worked hard getting round and balancing while the left is unused.
legs.jpg
legs.jpg (17.84 KiB) Viewed 1554 times
swapping the brace for the shower is better than trying to put a bag over the leg because even with tape you cant keep all the water out. Swapping us good brcause the comfortable ROM brace stays perfectly dry and the simpler fixed brace can juat dry between showers.
the simpler brace does remind me early on even with the rombrace when it was locked. Its supprising how much easier things are if you can just bend your knee a bit compared to completely fixed.
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rwhitenz?feature=mhum
1) Specialized Hard Rock + surviving 1/2 of Elation 300W + Sick Bike Parts freewheel and sprockets + echo cranks.
2) Keewee Stealth dirt jump with MAC 10T rear gear hub

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Ricky_nz   10 kW

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Posts: 846
Joined: Aug 15 2010 6:46am
Location: New Zealand

Re: oopsie. Ebike + Nephews are dangerous to uncles

Post by Ricky_nz » May 08 2015 10:23pm

Got a nice supprise when i decided to hop out to my letterbox on crutches. Mainly for a change of scenery and found a letter from the local council.

A nice letter telling me of great news. My building consent application to do major renovations to my house is approved. This includes the bit authorising me as the home owner to do restricted building work that is normally done by registered tradesmen. The council was a little picky so a bit of back and forth but finally approved :D.

Now i just need to solve the problem of having a usable left leg :lol: . At least the homeowner exemption rules allow friends and family to help as long as they aren't payed.

Kind of cheared me up after the boredom of being stuck at home.

Still working on moving my knee regularly but no real change in range of motion although what range i have seemes a little easier.
Latest Projects: High power vector controller for Turnigy 80-100.
Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/rwhitenz?feature=mhum
1) Specialized Hard Rock + surviving 1/2 of Elation 300W + Sick Bike Parts freewheel and sprockets + echo cranks.
2) Keewee Stealth dirt jump with MAC 10T rear gear hub

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