VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Talk about anything and everything here within reason.
Post Reply
User avatar
nerve   1 W

1 W
Posts: 62
Joined: Apr 08 2013 12:25am
Location: Northeast USofA
Contact:

VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by nerve » Sep 21 2015 1:45pm

Thought there'd be a discussion on here about this....

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ion-tests/

:roll:

User avatar
The fingers   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7255
Joined: Mar 11 2012 11:22pm
Location: Desert Pacific Cali USA

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by The fingers » Sep 21 2015 2:19pm

The old switcheroo. :twisted:
Black Schwinn High Sierra
Blue Schwinn Cruiser 5
Blue Schwinn High Plains
Black Fiore Cruzer 5: Amped Warp Drive 26" Front DD/SLA kit
http://ghostbikes.org/
http://www.rideofsilence.org/main.php
Hebrews 9:27

User avatar
nerve   1 W

1 W
Posts: 62
Joined: Apr 08 2013 12:25am
Location: Northeast USofA
Contact:

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by nerve » Sep 21 2015 6:36pm

I wonder where they've been funneling the revenue over the past ten years...I'm sure they would'nt have had a chance in hell at becoming the worlds largest car manufacture without the EPA slowly turning it's head in their direction..all's a stage...enjoy your health problems people...there's always Obama Care...

User avatar
izeman   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5048
Joined: Jun 21 2011 8:25am
Location: Vienna, Austria
Contact:

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by izeman » Sep 23 2015 10:06am

The topic is completely wrong as they altered the software to REDUCE emissions (during testing which is cheating).
Of course it's wrong to do but it is common practise of american car maker's lobby to raise a big scandal around foreign car makers to push their sales. Next in line will be Toyota again i bet ;)

User avatar
Lebowski   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3346
Joined: Jun 28 2011 1:38am
Location: beautiful Zurich, Switzerland

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by Lebowski » Sep 23 2015 10:46am

I hope VW gets sued into bankrupcy and that all employees (managers mostly) who knew/approved this trick end up in jail. Tossing salads for the rest of their lives !

But of course the people most likely to suffer are the shop floor workers who will loose their jobs.

User avatar
Icewrench   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 815
Joined: Sep 07 2008 4:54pm
Location: Seattle Wa USA

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by Icewrench » Sep 23 2015 11:01am

I just love a good scandal, and this one will be a doozie.
Willful deception on a large scale.
Testing routine will be changed.
Will the cars performance drop off when in clean mode?
HAhahahahahahahahaha......

User avatar
izeman   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5048
Joined: Jun 21 2011 8:25am
Location: Vienna, Austria
Contact:

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by izeman » Sep 23 2015 11:11am

VW's bancrupcy would lead to 600.000 unemployed who have done nothing wrong.

rsilvers   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 339
Joined: Aug 08 2015 10:06pm
Location: USA

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by rsilvers » Sep 23 2015 11:13am

The cars met European standards. They didn't want to make a US version.

How many owners of US cars are going to do the recall to get their cars detuned from Eurospec?
Merlin Titanium XTR, Mac 10T, 48v 820Wh, CA V3.

User avatar
The fingers   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7255
Joined: Mar 11 2012 11:22pm
Location: Desert Pacific Cali USA

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by The fingers » Sep 23 2015 11:24am

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companie ... ailsignoutThe rats begin to abandon ship. :twisted:
Volkswagen AG Chief Executive Officer Martin Winterkorn, who during nearly a decade at the helm catapulted VW to the top spot in global sales, stepped down after admitting the automaker cheated on U.S. emissions tests.
“Volkswagen needs a fresh start - also in terms of personnel,” Winterkorn said in a statement Wednesday. “I am clearing the way for this fresh start with my resignation.”
The move capped a dramatic fall from grace that began last Friday with the revelation that the Wolfsburg, Germany-based company fitted diesel-powered vehicles with software that circumvented air pollution controls, then lied about it to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. The 68-year-old CEO, who personally apologized for the affair, was unable to hang on as the stock price plummeted 35 percent over two days and pressure grew from the German government for quick action.
Winterkorn, who took over in 2007, led a turnaround that propelled VW from an also-ran that had cut 20,000 German jobs under his predecessor to a global powerhouse with about 600,000 employees that included a stable of 12 brands from Lamborghini supercars to Scania heavy trucks. He expanded aggressively, boosting the number of production sites around the world to more than 100 locations, with an emphasis on China and North America.
An avid soccer fan, he was accustomed to boardroom brawls and until Wednesday always came out on top. As chief of the luxury Audi division, where he set in motion a doubling of product offerings with models such as the Q7 SUV, he sparred with then-VW CEO Bernd Pischetsrieder over the direction of the company, eventually leading to Pischetsrieder’s ouster.
Faced with a takeover attempt from Porsche CEO Wendelin Wiedeking, Winterkorn fought off that effort as the global financial crisis undid the suitor’s company, turning the tables on his foe to buy the Porsche sports-car brand instead. His spending spree also included adding the MAN and Scania commercial-vehicle nameplates, as well as Ducati motorbikes.
At his side throughout was his confidante and mentor Ferdinand Piech, the automaker’s supervisory board chairman and patriarch of the Porsche-Piech clan that owns 50.7 percent of VW’s voting stock. When Piech turned on Winterkorn this year, the CEO fought for his job and, to the surprise of many company insiders, won. Piech stepped down in April after Winterkorn rallied support from labor leaders and members of the controlling family led by Piech’s cousin, Wolfgang Porsche.
The new CEO’s top priority will be getting to the bottom of a scheme intended to dupe regulators and consumers about emissions of diesel engines installed in 11 million cars worldwide -- more vehicles than VW sells in a year. The automaker set aside 6.5 billion euros ($7.3 billion) on Tuesday to cover potential costs.
VW’s Achilles heel remains the American market. Even before the revelations of the last week, the VW marque was struggling in the U.S., despite investing $1 billion on a new factory in Tennessee to build a stripped-down, cheaper version of the Passat sedan. The brand’s U.S. sales have dropped, in contrast to growth in the overall market, as VW delayed decisions on building sport utility vehicles that would appeal to American consumers. The automaker is also grappling with a slowdown in China, the company’s biggest national market.
Working in the new CEO’s favor is an automaker that for the moment is financially sound. Volkswagen’s automotive division had net liquidity of 21.5 billion euros at the end of June, and posted record profit of 12.7 billion euros in 2014, helped by its strong presence in China and the expansion of the Audi and Porsche nameplates in the lucrative luxury-car segment. VW surpassed Toyota Motor Corp. in the first half to take the top spot in worldwide vehicle sales -- a goal that Winterkorn set early in his tenure to reach in 2018.
With the diesel-emissions scandal, Winterkorn’s attention to detail has come back to haunt him. Analysts have questioned how a man who would berate staff over the shine on chrome parts could have let something go so awry in the U.S. Winterkorn was known for carrying a measuring stick to check the uniformity of parts, and the automaker would often bring two of a model to an auto show in case he was unhappy with the looks of the one on display.
Winterkorn, who had been Germany’s top paid CEO and was set to get a contract extension this Friday, was intending to give up some of his control of the development process to regional managers, a plan that is now in question.
Black Schwinn High Sierra
Blue Schwinn Cruiser 5
Blue Schwinn High Plains
Black Fiore Cruzer 5: Amped Warp Drive 26" Front DD/SLA kit
http://ghostbikes.org/
http://www.rideofsilence.org/main.php
Hebrews 9:27

rsilvers   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 339
Joined: Aug 08 2015 10:06pm
Location: USA

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by rsilvers » Sep 23 2015 11:33am

How would one check the uniformity of parts with a measuring stick? You would have to use calipers.
Merlin Titanium XTR, Mac 10T, 48v 820Wh, CA V3.

User avatar
spinningmagnets   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 11528
Joined: Dec 21 2007 10:27pm
Location: Ft Riley, NE Kansas

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by spinningmagnets » Sep 23 2015 11:48am

When a diesel runs in a very lean mode, fuel economy is improved, but any unburned oxygen from uncombusted air can form nitrides of oxygen (NOx). In spite of conservative EPA fuel economy ratings, US based VWs were known to regularly provide 55-MPG when at a steady state cruise speed.

VW owners may be requested to take their VW diesel into a dealer to get the software fixed, which will make it produce less NOx, but will also reduce the fuel economy.

They will either pay the fine (after appealing it to be reduced as far as possible), or they will stop selling VWs in the US, which are not selling very well in the first place. VWs are selling very well globally, just not very well in the US, since the diesel version is about $5000 more than the gasoline versions, and gas in the US is at very low prices. I saw $1.95/gal in Oklahoma recently, and less than $2.50 in many other places.

All the while, the cargo-ships that move products around the globe continue to burn "bunker oil" with no emissions equipment on the exhaust at all (when out past the 12-mile international limit, or in third world countries). So, who's the villain? VW? Have you seen the coal-burning pollution in China? What VW did was legally wrong, but it is a very minor increase in pollution, and they were still running pretty clean at their worst.

Image

User avatar
The fingers   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7255
Joined: Mar 11 2012 11:22pm
Location: Desert Pacific Cali USA

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by The fingers » Sep 23 2015 12:04pm

tar trailer.png
tar trailer.png (21.34 KiB) Viewed 4728 times
With thousands of these things being towed around spewing smoke, I'm surprised they're not smogged. :twisted:
Black Schwinn High Sierra
Blue Schwinn Cruiser 5
Blue Schwinn High Plains
Black Fiore Cruzer 5: Amped Warp Drive 26" Front DD/SLA kit
http://ghostbikes.org/
http://www.rideofsilence.org/main.php
Hebrews 9:27

User avatar
Lebowski   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3346
Joined: Jun 28 2011 1:38am
Location: beautiful Zurich, Switzerland

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by Lebowski » Sep 23 2015 12:19pm

izeman wrote:VW's bancrupcy would lead to 600.000 unemployed who have done nothing wrong.
Not really sure about this. VW factories would be sold to other car manufacturers. The hole in the market will need to be filled by other car builders. Maybe Tesla would be interested to build a Golf sized car.

In Holland we have a car plant in the deep south (Borne), build Volvo's, bankrupt, then build Mitsubishi's, closed, now building Mini's ...

User avatar
Lebowski   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3346
Joined: Jun 28 2011 1:38am
Location: beautiful Zurich, Switzerland

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by Lebowski » Sep 23 2015 12:21pm

Pffff, ocean ship, peanuts, have you seen the crap the Icelandic people put in the air with that volcano of theirs ?

User avatar
speedmd   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2844
Joined: Nov 14 2012 12:16pm
Location: new england

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by speedmd » Sep 23 2015 1:21pm

What is 10 million stink pots crushed / melted down and remade into clean EV's? A good start!

No way to fix the mess they made nor should any of the duped customers settle for less than a buy back of their now near worthless cars. It's going to hurt a bit, but it is a gift in the long run IMO. Cutting power and running gobs of exhaust gasses is not going to rid the motors of nitrogen oxides enough with out a urea system added. It will cost more than many of these cars are worth. No one yet has been able to do it and still have a fun to drive motor. Time to pull the proverbial plug.

rsilvers   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 339
Joined: Aug 08 2015 10:06pm
Location: USA

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by rsilvers » Sep 23 2015 3:05pm

The cars meet European specs for pollution.
Merlin Titanium XTR, Mac 10T, 48v 820Wh, CA V3.

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10658
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by Hillhater » Sep 23 2015 6:09pm

speedmd wrote:What is 10 million stink pots crushed / melted down and remade into clean EV's? A good start!
Hmm ?..I wonder how much pollution from "melting down" 10 million cars ? :roll:
speedmd wrote: Cutting power and running gobs of exhaust gasses is not going to rid the motors of nitrogen oxides enough with out a urea system added.
Running in " compliance" mode doesn't necessarily mean cutting power , and obviously not " gobs of exhaust gasses". ,
...it will most likely affect engine life and reliability

.
speedmd wrote: No one yet has been able to do it and still have a fun to drive motor. Time to pull the proverbial plug.
BMW ? Mercedes ?
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

User avatar
speedmd   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2844
Joined: Nov 14 2012 12:16pm
Location: new england

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by speedmd » Sep 23 2015 7:23pm

Did I touch a nerve! Oh well. Letting them spew toxic gasses in all parts of the world for many years to come is much worse than melting them down in controlled atmosphere furnaces.

You can jack up the injection pressures and feed more exhaust gasses in to reduce nitrogen oxides, but putting significant power out moves it all in the wrong direction. No one has been able to do it. Not MB or BMW either. Not VW either. Benz uses a Bluetec system which was licensed to VW through about 2007. They went renegade after that. BMW a adblue system last I heard. VW just adds bullsh!t the last bunch of years. It will not end well for them regardless how I feel about it.

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7961
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by Chalo » Sep 23 2015 8:15pm

My feelings about this episode are profoundly mixed. On one hand, I really dislike cars. I also believe that corporate lawlessness should be dealt with far more zealously and harshly than lawlessness by humans.

On the other hand, these are pretty much the only cars for sale in the USA that can routinely reach and exceed 50 mpg, and they're still pretty clean compared to the USA car fleet as a whole. In a country where people can and do use 10 mpg trucks as personal vehicles, where "rolling coal" is a political statement, where stinking smoggy hot rods pass for personal expression, why should the most fuel efficient cars on the road be singled out for their emissions? They're putting out a quarter as much carbon per mile as a stupid F-350 that never carries anything more than its owner's self-entitlement.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

rsilvers   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 339
Joined: Aug 08 2015 10:06pm
Location: USA

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by rsilvers » Sep 23 2015 8:37pm

Everyone who bought one did it for the extreme fuel economy. None of those people will be happy if a recall reduces their economy.

They will all get checks for the lifetime fuel difference value.

My guess is everyone will get a $600 check and that is all. That is $6.6 billion before any fines.
Merlin Titanium XTR, Mac 10T, 48v 820Wh, CA V3.

User avatar
nutnspecial   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3808
Joined: Mar 03 2015 10:19pm
Location: PA

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by nutnspecial » Sep 23 2015 8:46pm

Gee, it's too bad enough 'citizens' can't get to a logical conclusion on things like this and others.
Also, too bad that even if they did, it seems unlikely to impact politics as it should.

+1 use logic

Lurkin   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1428
Joined: Jan 18 2015 4:31pm
Location: Melbourne, VIC, AUS

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by Lurkin » Sep 23 2015 8:56pm

Wondering if this is the tip of the iceberg and their petrol vehicles have something similar...

Punx0r   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5514
Joined: May 03 2012 8:16am
Location: England

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by Punx0r » Sep 24 2015 2:37am

Unlikely. Petrol engines are comparatively clean. The whole problem is probably based on U.S. emissions standards having been designed around petrol engines (which are typical) and no accommodation made for diesels (which are rare), so selling a diesel means meeting standards intended for petrols.

User avatar
TheBeastie   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1970
Joined: Jul 28 2012 12:31am
Location: Melbourne Australia

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by TheBeastie » Sep 24 2015 5:23am

Here is a poll on "In light of the VW scandal, would you still buy a diesel car?"
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/23/would-yo ... l-car.html

Almost 9,000 votes so its a decent chunky sized poll. As far as I have noticed over the years its hard to get people to click on web vote polls.

Apparently VW diesel isn't that popular in the USA and Japan its mostly Europe and well everywhere else?
Whether other car makers are doing it or not is real enough for the investors are paranoid about it, all the major car makers stock prices are down on this news.
Speed Kills Range, 10mph = 46 miles range, 20mph = 20 miles, 30mph = 8 miles rangehttps://goo.gl/1JNL53
Over Charging Kills ur battery bit.ly/1hzWKl4
Consider PAS as your only throttle https://goo.gl/Kg1F8F
Fuel-Cell is the ultimate battery coupled with 4th-gen Nuclear
https://goo.gl/TcKtHs https://goo.gl/ZhFFot https://goo.gl/gfa215
10 Square Miles of solar panels = 0.12GW average power! https://goo.gl/Ub1S39

User avatar
izeman   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 5048
Joined: Jun 21 2011 8:25am
Location: Vienna, Austria
Contact:

Re: VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

Post by izeman » Sep 24 2015 7:23am

Punx0r wrote:Unlikely. Petrol engines are comparatively clean. The whole problem is probably based on U.S. emissions standards having been designed around petrol engines (which are typical) and no accommodation made for diesels (which are rare), so selling a diesel means meeting standards intended for petrols.
sure. every country tries to save it's own interests. and a country producing SUVs with big petrol v8 engines and making special pollution rules for those can easily stop others from entering the market. even if a diesel is producing more NOx which is not very nice, in the end it's burning 5l or a bit over a gallon per 100km or 1.5 gallon/100mi and not 3,4 or 5 times that amount.

Post Reply