All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

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hjns   100 kW

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All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by hjns » Oct 26 2016 12:17pm

Hi all,

It has been a long time since I posted here. But I have something new planned. First some background.

After a couple of years of experimenting with different kinds of DIY ebikes, I decided to buy a Haibike. But this is only the beginning! Read more below the picture...
Image

As you can see, the Haibike has a Bosch mid-motor, estimated at around 350W. Max speed is around 42kmh (electronically limited) and peak power is probably something around 800W through the gears. With this, I can get up a 30% incline without any issues, but only in lowest gear.

However, recently, I saw the All-Axle Hub motor from Justin for beta testing. See below, the picture that was taken from the Ebikes.ca website.
Image

OK, the plan is to combine both. The Justin's motor has been ordered. After testing with a Phase Runner, CA3 and CA logger, I will lace it into a 650B DT Swiss rim and assemble into my Haibike. I will report on the progress here. Hope you guys may find it entertaining...
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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hjns   100 kW

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update

Post by hjns » Oct 28 2016 1:28am

Just got a mail from Grin:
Your Order has Shipped

Hello,

Thank you for your order from http://www.ebikes.ca. We are happy to inform you that your order has left our facility and is heading to your mailbox. Your shipping confirmation information is below and you can check the status of your order by logging into your account.

Thank you again for your business.
Your Shipment #10000xxx for Order #10000xxx

Shipping Information: Shipping Method:
xxxx
Switzerland
T: +41xxxx FedEx - International Priority - Est. Delivery 2016-10-28

Item Sku Qty
Grin All-Axle Hub M:Grin2706 1
20mm Thru Axle Adapters Msc:QR20 1
15mm Thru Axle Adapters Msc:QR15 1
Statorade Msc:Statorade 1
Shipped By Tracking Number
FedEx 7775xxx
In addition, I used the Spoke calculator to calculate what length spokes I would need for this motor in a 650B rim with single cross pattern. I ended up with 169mm, of which I ordered 40 black spokes on eBay in conventional 2mm thickness.
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Re: All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by Drunkskunk » Oct 28 2016 3:11pm

Well this could be cool. I'm staying tuned.
Buy the ticket, take the ride.
Monster Bike:http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=38667

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hjns   100 kW

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All-Axle Grin Hub motor arrived

Post by hjns » Nov 01 2016 10:56am

Very fast delivery!

Image

Now testing can start!
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Re: All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by Merlin » Nov 18 2016 9:36am

3 weeks later....cmoooooon show us what you find out :D

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Re: All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by hjns » Nov 18 2016 2:38pm

Well.... yeah.... I am really extremely busy with work, supporting a new drug to fight advanced breast cancer and bring it to patients as soon as possible. See also here. My team has submitted a big dossier to various health authorities (FDA, EMA, Swissmedic, Health Canada, etc) and we are now in the process of trying to answer all their questions. Very exciting!

Therefore, this may become my "getting-through-the-winter" project, and you can expect some more delays. Really sorry about that.

Anyway, in the meantime, I managed to get the motor onto my el cheapo front fork that I use for testing.

Image

I had some minor issues getting the right spacer attached, because I had attached the torque arm first using the screws. As the parts are machined exquisitely nicely, I was not able to fit the spacer in between the screws. Therefore, I had to remove the screws of the torque arm again, then fit the spacer, and then put the screws back again. No real issue, it just takes another 5 minutes...

Between the torque arm and the lower right leg of my fork, there is a space of approximately 6mm. For testing purposes, I just use a metal strip to keep the torque arm in place against the lower leg. I guess that when some real torque comes into play, I will have to come up with a better solution.

Image

On the left hand side, I put a 203mm disc rotor, which will be partnered with a Formula R0 caliper.

Image

Really sorry, guys, but this is as far as I got.

I have a EM3EV 48V triangle pack lying ready, as well as a throttle, a CAv3 and a CA logger. Somewhere in my Manhole, there is a phaserunner lying around as well. I will need to search for it, then make sure that it can connect to my pack, CA, and motor, and then I will continue testing.....
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Re: All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by John Bozi » Nov 21 2016 3:29pm

You beat me to it.

I already have a mid drive running through a rear hub motor. Thought I'd be first to get a mid drive and a front hub motor too....

Any way mine is not shipped yet but will be watching you closely on here.

I hope these motors work out and with no fork failures....

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Update

Post by hjns » Nov 27 2016 5:17am

Hi all,

OK, so all electric components have been connected for the first test. In short:

EM3EV battery pack connected to PhaseRunner using 12G HobbyKing wire with 60A-rated 6mm connectors.
PhaseRunner using standard Grin connectors attached to CA and to Grin Hub.
Throttle connected to CA.

Now the testing part comes, where I need to program the PhaseRunner to recognize and run the Grin Hub Motor. This will again take some time.... I will be following the instructions as described by Robbie here.
Will keep posting here my results.
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Re: All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by John Bozi » Nov 27 2016 6:13am

so you didnt order the phase runner at the same time then...

I also order a phase runner and hopefully it doesn't get forgotten somewhere that I wanted them paired up before shipping. I'm scared of the complexity of the that controller...


good luck

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Re: All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by hjns » Nov 27 2016 11:23am

Hi John,

Yep, that is correct. I had the Phaserunner lying around already.

I now have issues with my Win10 laptop not recognizing the USB serial adapter..... meaning that I cannot get BacDoor running to configure the Phaserunner.
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Re: All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by hjns » Nov 27 2016 1:50pm

OK. Getting the appropriate driver solved the issue.

Moving forwards, I need to do the following:

Configure the PhaseRunner
Configure the CAv3

To configure the PhaseRunner I first need to know the battery characteristics, and the motor characteristics.
Battery: this is a 14S high capacity triangle pack from EM3EV. I am very happy with this pack.
Nominal voltage is 14*3.7V = 51.8V
HoC voltage is 14*4.2V = 58.8V
I want to set my LVC voltage quite conservative at 14* 3.65V = 51.1V (about 87% of maxV)

In addition, I want to set the maximum current at approximately 40A, making for a total maximum power of 40*58.8 = 2352W :mrgreen: if I would not limit the total motor power at 2000W. Setting the limit at 2kW will start with a higher voltage HoC but a slightly lower current, and then as the voltage goes down over time, the current max will go up to compensate for that, in order to keep the limit at 2kW. At least, that is the theory (which works for the CA.). The advantage is obviously that there is no noticable power drop over time. Let's see if it also works for the Phaserunner. With LVC at 51.1V, max current would be 2000/51.1= 39A, so spot on.

As I don't want to use regen for the moment, I will put the regen current limit at 0%.

Motor: as mentioned this is the already famous pilot run of the Grin Hub Motor.
According to Grin, this motor has 23 poles.
Speed is 10rpm/V, so at 58.8V, this would end up with a theoretical 588 rpm max.
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Update

Post by hjns » Nov 27 2016 3:14pm

OK, so this is absolutely rediculous!

I read again the PhaseRunner tread. Then it dawned on me to check the Grin site again. I downloaded the new PhaseRunner Software suite, installed it, and 5 minutes later I had a perfectly spinning Grin Hub Motor!!

Literally 5 minutes!!!

What did I do?

First, I started the Phase Runner Suite on my PC.
Then I connected the Phase Runner to the Battery Pack.
Then I plugged in the TTL serial cable in the Phase Runner first, and then into the USB port of my computer.
The Phase Runner Suite then goes flashing that the controller is connected.
I then followed the official Phase Runner User Manual as described here.
That means, I used the Autotune wizzard, and then set the correct settings for max power / volt, etc again. And then everything was running.

5 freaking minutes!!!

I had prepared for days of experimenting. Different hall/phase combinations. Different settings. Etc. But NO !
Gone are the days of painstakingly try every hall / phase combination.

Here sits a happy man.

Next steps are lacing the motor into the wheel, putting everything on my bike, and do some real world testing!!

HURRAAY, HURRAAY, HURRAAY for Justin and his Grin team!!!!! You really made the world a better place for all ebikers who care to take a look at the Phase Runner and it's super duper software suite! Well done!

BTW, the Phase Runner suite has a live dashboard. It is just extremely satisfying to turn the throttle, and then see the immediate motor current, battery current, motor rpm, controller temp, etc onscreen in the software Suite. Very welcome for testing!! Obviously not something to use when driving, but that's where we have the CAv3 + CA Logger for!!! :mrgreen:
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Re: All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by John Bozi » Nov 30 2016 3:40pm

cool!

Hey what is the TTL serial cable?

Is it specific to the phase runner?

I have one I bought from em3ev for my lyen but have never used.

Would it work together?

cheers

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Re: All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by hjns » Dec 01 2016 4:26am

John Bozi wrote:Hey what is the TTL serial cable?
Link to TTL-USB cable.
John Bozi wrote:Is it specific to the phase runner?
No, I also use it to program the CAv3.
John Bozi wrote:I have one I bought from em3ev for my lyen but have never used.
Would it work together?
Not sure it is the same.
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Update - more goodies came in

Post by hjns » Dec 07 2016 5:06am

The following have arrived:

DT Swiss M480 Disc 27.5inch rim with 32 holes.
Image

Black Spokes 2.0mm
Image

So, lacing has started....

In addition, just in case we get some nice black ice....

2x Schwalbe Ice Spiker Pro for 27.5inch.
Image
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Re: All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by John Bozi » Dec 08 2016 3:14am

How are you lacing?

1. straight
2. crossing two on the same tab
3. crossing two on different tabs

I left the choice up to grin to calculate whichever for me, I wasn't two fussed but I am hoping they sent for a cross pattern since I still kind of push for a cross pattern even though the pairing makes straight better than usual....

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Using the Grin Spoke Calculator

Post by hjns » Dec 08 2016 4:54am

Image
Attachments
2016-12-08_10-51-45.jpg
2016-12-08_10-51-45.jpg (162.24 KiB) Viewed 3458 times
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Spoke calculation mistake

Post by hjns » Dec 10 2016 4:59am

OK, so I made a mistake.

In my previous post, you can see how I configured the Online Spoke Calculator. I did it wrongly, hence the spokes that I ordered are too short. I only found out while trying to lace the wheel....

This is how I should have done it:
Image

In brief, I only selected [custom rim] and then [nominal diameter], without reading the instructions. Hence my ERD stayed at 536mm, which is 48mm too small....

Lesson learned: RTFM!!

I will now take 32 of my 235mm spokes 2.0mm that I have lying around, and shorten them to 192mm. Add a thread, and start re-lacing....
Attachments
spokes.jpg
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Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Re: All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by John Bozi » Dec 10 2016 6:10pm

feel your pain...

ERD is the only part I would get right... the rest of parameters are what get me... so I let them do it....

I wanted to buy a spoke threading machine but the price is extreme from what I could find... especially for not standard mtb spokes widths.

My stuff should be arriving next week, but will pretty busy with work... so you still may be the first to build up the wheel...

Apart from your thread has anyone else built one up on ES and shared experiences yet? I could only find you on here.

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Re: All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by hjns » Dec 12 2016 5:03am

Yes, the spoke threader is expensive, but it is still worth it for me. I have laced about 30 wheels now (with and without motor).

I got this Hozan one from Jenson.

Image
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Re: All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by AWD » Dec 15 2016 12:00am

John Bozi wrote: My stuff should be arriving next week, but will pretty busy with work... so you still may be the first to build up the wheel...

Apart from your thread has anyone else built one up on ES and shared experiences yet? I could only find you on here.
I have had one for about a month but work has also gotten in the way and waiting for a rim to arrive that was the right size. The first one was a 650b and I needed a 700c but it was a gimme so not able to complain. I am getting my spokes together tomorrow hopefully though now that I have them calced and the right rim.

I am going to make another version of this:
IMG_3198.JPG
Using this:
IMG_3236.JPG
IMG_3236.JPG (155.26 KiB) Viewed 5238 times
I don't do hose clamps unless absolutely necessary and envisioned getting a tab welded to a steel fork I have. But after considering the hassle and expense and in the interest of figuring out something that would adapt to any fork profile and following this that Robbie sent me:
Grin All Axle Hub Torque Arm Spacing.PDF
(244.08 KiB) Downloaded 109 times
I came up with this which I will be refining with the new bikes fork after I get the wheel built:
IMG_3170.JPG
The brass is bendable enough to conform to any fork profile and should be strong enough doubled up as it turns out to be. If it works as conceived it will allow for tool less release of the motor.

After putting 900 miles on the black bike in all kinds of terrain and surfaces I am pretty sold on using a front hub motor. Aside from the AWD, which adds a whole nother level of fun climbing steep loose terrain, the biggest benefit for me is that it isolates the motor completely from the drivetrain and I can use a system I am used to, maintain my Q factor and pedal my own cadence at whatever resistance I choose. The Schlumpf High Speed drive paired with the 11/28 8spd cassette allows for good pedaling resistance all the way up and beyond the motors output and gives me all the gears in between that I require. I use a throttle because all the PAS systems I have tried, and that is most of them, don't feel right to me. I have cruise control set up and I would miss that too as I find it beneficial when on the road and going up long steep grades.

I have been waiting for this to come out since I heard about it and although I don't have a thru axle fork at the moment when I can find one in the right size and price I will get one. They are all over for mtb's but not so much for roadish type bikes like mine unless you want to spend $500. But that is the beauty of it being "any" axle eh? And btw many feel that front hub motors are not good for your fork but if you have a good TA it is a non issue at least for the 1000w+ that I max out at. The cheap carbon fork that came on the bikes direct bike is holding up just fine although I do keep a close eye on it. The new bike, well CL special, has an alloy fork so I will get to see how that holds up next but with the TA on this motor I don't see it being a problem.

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Re: All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by John Bozi » Dec 15 2016 4:25am

thanks for the share!

I got shafted at the border.

My order had been waiting a week in customs and now got a lovely $320 au additional duty gst to pay to be released....... should have it next week again!

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hjns   100 kW

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Re: All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by hjns » Dec 15 2016 10:02am

John Bozi wrote:I got shafted at the border.
My order had been waiting a week in customs and now got a lovely $320 au additional duty gst to pay to be released....... should have it next week again!
Wow, I feel your pain and had similar experiences importing stuff into Switzerland.

I am really happy that my shipment from the US into Germany was painless. No additional duties or whatever. Very nice, very fast.
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Re: All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by hjns » Dec 15 2016 10:04am

AWD wrote:I have had one for about a month but work has also gotten in the way and waiting for a rim to arrive that was the right size. The first one was a 650b and I needed a 700c but it was a gimme so not able to complain. I am getting my spokes together tomorrow hopefully though now that I have them calced and the right rim.
Hi AWD, thanks for sharing. I would be happy to read more of your experiences!
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Re: All-Axle Grin Hub motor meets Haibike FS RS 27.5

Post by AWD » Dec 15 2016 10:27am

John and Henk,

Sharing is what it is all about.

Sorry to hear about your shipping problems John. I was able to pick mine up at Grin as I have a son that lives in Vancouver and I live in Portland, Or. so I just drove it across the border.

I will keep my progress updated on here as it occurs.

12/15

Got the wheel built this evening watching the Hawks. Spoke lengths were spot on using the Grin calculator and getting the spokes cut to pretty much the exact measurement at a local shop that has one of these: http://www.wheelfanatyk.com/store/morizumi-sct-machine/
IMG_3315.JPG
IMG_3315.JPG (82.87 KiB) Viewed 5206 times
32h WTB Frequency i25 rims 599mmERD

Sapim Strong Spokes (http://www.sapim.be/spokes/butted/strong)

LSL 198.6
RSL 199.8

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