Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Chalo » Jul 07 2018 12:59pm

spinningmagnets wrote:
Jul 07 2018 7:30am
Chalo, do you use any fluid on the spoke/nipple threads when you properly tension them? Something to help them resist coming loose?
By customer request, or if I have serious concerns about the wheel's ability to maintain spoke tension, I sometimes use Wheelsmith Spoke Prep on the threads before assembling the wheel. But most of the time, I use only a dab of grease or a drop of oil at each nipple.

A thread locking compound like Spoke Prep, linseed oil, or purple Loctite will prevent the nipples from unscrewing when the spokes go slack, but it does nothing to prevent the loss of spoke structural support for the rim under such circumstances. With the right configuration for the job (strong and stiff enough rim, thin enough spokes), spokes don't go slack and thus the nipples don't need to be stuck in place.
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belt drive

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Jul 07 2018 2:33pm

you think a belt tensioner would be needed? weoll they do have wider chain tensioners...but not wider than a 415 chain by much.

I am going to have to mount the motor to start figureing just how much room I have for belt or chain....I don't think I can make a belt work with the middrive crank. but if I could ever get that rear end built...as long as the tire is not too wide. those two sided sprocket hubs are too nerrow...129mm?

this is my favorite for a factory bike, it has the belt on the left side, but no disc brake....on the rear.... and the belt is a new one to me...

These belt pulleys bolt onto a free wheel flange. So I may need a single speed disc hub with free wheel threads. But to use two free wheels (one to the pedals)...do they make wider hubs for free wheels and still have a disc rotor mount? Or maybe I can bolt the pulley onto a pair of sprockets and mount it directly to my free-hub body.


Image

https://www.electricbike.com/miele-evox ... -procycle/

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Ianhill wrote:
Jul 06 2018 3:03pm
Now your talking I'd love a belt drive on a hub with Foc it be so silent be quieter than walking, I'm swapping to a 130bcd hollowtech crank and a 56tooth front ring but I'll still need a tensioner as my chain length changes as the swing arm moves that's why a belt drive would be more difficult I'd need to have adjustable tensioner and a metre and half of kevlar belt.

A bmx type wheel mount that allows the wheel to slide back and forth in the frame be the easiest way of assuring good tension in the simplest way but it means the rear must be a hard tail to pull it off.

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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Jul 14 2018 2:26pm

I was going over this to see what I missed, and found that you didn't mention the name of the rim on your fabulous wheel. Is it a 409mm bicycle rim?

Is there a motorcycle rim that could be replacement for it?

The motorcycle rim I got for my rear is a 19” cheapo (3mm thick plain aluminum), it was even warped inwards at tthe weld. I hope it will work for a little higher speed than I was using it.

The front rim is a over priced Odysey rim (about $100) very tight for that 16” motorcycle tire. If I build another wheel for the rear I want it to be a 16”rim and hopefull not as expisive as the Odysey rims.
Chalo wrote:
Jul 01 2018 11:49am
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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Chalo » Jul 17 2018 5:43pm

Hugh-Jassman wrote:
Jul 14 2018 2:26pm
I was going over this to see what I missed, and found that you didn't mention the name of the rim on your fabulous wheel. Is it a 409mm bicycle rim?
Chalo wrote:
Jul 01 2018 11:49am
Image
If it's the photo I think it is, of a 20" disc brake wheel with a CST Operative tire, then that's a 20" BMX sized rim I bought in a batch from Neal Saiki back when his company was called Emoto instead of Zero Motorcycles. He'd changed his bikes from 20" bicycle rims to some kind of motorcycle rims, and was selling off his old stock. I got a handful in 36h and 48h. I still have a couple of each. Ypedal grabbed some too, as I recall.

They are nicely sized (45mm wide and close to 1kg), double walled and single eyeleted. They're covered with matte black powdercoat (so not a top choice for a rim brake), and the rim joints are passable but not great. The center channel is not nearly as deep as what you'd find on a motorcycle rim. If you need one, PM me. I think it would work fine for your bike structurally, but I don't know whether you could persuade a motorcycle tire to go on it.

I don't know of any double walled moto rims.
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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Jul 22 2018 2:25pm

right now I am stressing out just trying to figure whart to do about a battery...and it will cost me another $200 than I planed for...
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=95251

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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Jul 29 2018 5:20pm

wish they could make these for e bikes


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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Chalo » Jul 29 2018 5:48pm

Hugh-Jassman wrote:
Jul 29 2018 5:20pm
wish they could make these for e bikes
That's like the Yankee Bicycle from thirty years ago, which was I'm sure an adaptation of something much older. The fact that it was brought to market thirty years ago (you could buy one at the mall at the Nordic Track store) but it failed then, and wasn't tried again for a few more decades, should tell you all you need to know about it.
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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Jul 31 2018 2:19pm

I think shiftable gears are only good for really heavy cycletrucks.

Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Aug 18 2018 1:55pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Aug 18 2018 1:53pm

I found this image on an ice bike forum, it maybe the least likely to damage the rear wheel. But then I would have to figure out how to use a belt driven from the motor. But this planetary gear motor is one of only two than can do the trick.

Too bad I did not find out about the Bafang 1500w heavy duty mid-drive before I grabbed this Cyclone3000. I learned a lot about how hard it is to custom outfit a bike.
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Then I started thinking about how belts probably get very dirty from road gravel. I think the only way to do it then is to build the frame so that the wheel dish is offset to the side enough that it can avoid the tire by at least 2 or 3 inches. But it will take an extra wide hub. This is also the only way to center the big cyclone motor to make room on the right side for the human powered chain.

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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Chalo » Aug 18 2018 2:55pm

At the pedicab manufacturer where I work, we offer Cyclone motor driven cabs with operating speeds as low as 12mph. For that, we use 13/44 gearing on the 2-4kW Cyclone gearmotor direct to the axle of 29 inch wheels, plus some parameter setting on the programmable controller.

There are a number of ways to do what you're trying to do, even taking for granted the motor you have now. The questions I think you should settle for yourself are these:

Do you want a bike that simply works as intended, even if it's kind of normal?

Or do you need something unique/weird to feel satisfied with it?

Or do you prefer most of all to continue overthinking the technical problem you're trying to solve?

I think belt drive is only appropriate if you answer "yes" to the second or third questions.
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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Ianhill » Aug 19 2018 1:37pm

I got to agree with chalos on this one, belt drive needs to be finely tuned to get the best out of it and that belt system shown above looks like a car fan belt and we have all heard them slip and squeal, The gates drive belt has kevlar added for increased strength and the ribs are across the belt to dramatically increase the grip the belt has with the pulley so its much less likely to slip when wet.

Don't over complicate it and make it fragile belt drive can be really nice but it needs to be well designed, For ease of diy use and reliability your not gonna beat a well spec'd hub motor just spend a few more quid on controlling it decent, I know you have your cyclone now and want to implement it so if it was me of be looking at getting it to my needs and reliable and if my needs are a little whack then some stream lining of thought process needs to be performed with a little brain storming of what you really can afford and complete.

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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Aug 22 2018 3:04pm

so you think the belt drive would not be worth the extra work? probably so.

But I still don't trust the free hub body, and that is the only place this motor will attach to. that is the motor is too wide for the left side and making a frame extintion will not solve that problem. Infact I don't think I will fi the motor behind the seat post with any ease. So I am just gong to have to attach it the way it was made to fit.

I will have to build a new custom frame to fit it on the left side.

I will have it runing by october....

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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Chalo » Aug 23 2018 2:42am

Hugh-Jassman wrote:
Aug 22 2018 3:04pm
But I still don't trust the free hub body, and that is the only place this motor will attach to.
So use a threaded freewheel hub and don't forget to grease or anti-seize the threads. Freewheels can have a much larger ratchet diameter than freehubs, and they're really cheap and easy to replace.

If you get a single freewheel with a 5-bolt flange, you can use it to mount any size of chainring:
http://sickbikeparts.com/freewheel-spider-5-arm-110-mm/
Image

Since your motor has a freewheel on the output shaft, your rear wheel doesn't even need a freewheel at all. That offers you some other options.

Also note that you can remove the freewheel and collar from the Cyclone motor and flip it over to run in the opposite direction, and then you can easily drive in the left side of the wheel.
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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Aug 25 2018 2:37pm

The reason I am not able to mount the motor on the rear is the same problem as mounting on the front left side drive. The motor is too large! It hangs over too much on the left side, so the left side pedal will make my foot hit the motor. The only place to mount it is aft of the rear triangle in front of the drive wheel. So I will have to make the rear extension several inches longer, at least 5 inches.

Mounting on the front has the same problem. I would need custom brackets to hold the motor out away from the crank. So maybe later when I get a round-tuit I can actually build something.
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If any one wants to use this motor for a cargo bike, they should just start with a long-tail bike that has room behind the seat post. Back far enough or up high enough to clear the left foot.

I wish I could start over from scratch, I would start with the Bafang BBSHD or what ever it is, that can draw up to 2000w.

Yes I do want to build the most heavy-duty cycletruck that has ever been built (except for 'staton-inc'). My neighbor built this heavy-duty velomobile frame, but he did not build a way to haul cargo on it. But he had the right idea about how to build a really strong frame.

I also think that a rim pulley could work good if I were to build epoxy teeth for a timing belt. Not that it would be easy. And yes a timing belt may not be strong enough, I have not looked at how strong they are. So a chain maybe the most affordable.

Gates belts are so expensive I think they my not last long enough for the price??

But if my wheel brakes because the gear reduction is so low that the wheel just cannot handle the abuse, I will have to rebuild it in a much stronger way. And yes a lager sprocket may be easier, but only if I can find a wide enough hub to make it all fit correctly. I won't fix it till it brakes, but I gotta know where to start if it does.

What are the “parameter settings on the programmable controller” that you use?

This motor spitz out too much power, how can I tame it with the controller??

I was about to buy the battery pack but they are out of the one I want. Only 13.5Ah because I finally calculated that I need only half of that even at an 80% charge. 8 Mile round trip maximum at 30Wh per mile= approximately 140wh needed. 648Wh – 20%=518wh but I keep getting the crazy feeling that I should buy more.

11.5ah x 52v=598wh -20%=478.4wh or 13.5 x 52702 -20%= 561.6wh No point in tempting fate by giving it more power.


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Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Sep 24 2018 1:40pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Chalo » Aug 25 2018 9:20pm

Regarding cycle trucks, the new generation of six passenger pedicabs where I work is rolling on out. This design is proven up to gross weights of well over 2000 pounds. It has chain drive from Cyclone motor directly to the rear differential.

(The one in the picture hasn't gotten its seating yet.)
IMG_20180825_211457.jpg
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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Aug 27 2018 1:37pm

wow 2000lbs! and only one cyclone motor?
battery
Karl Gesslein said that he likes the “gut wrenching wheelie popping feeling of a super low geared BBS02 and a 52v pack with a full charge of 58v” so I think I would like the 48v pack's anemic feel better.

But he also said he “prefers the 14S packs because when they get run down they still produce a pretty high voltage so your motor doesn’t feel like it’s dying when the pack is nearly dead.”

The Amp hour rating is the total power capacity of the pack but has nothing to do with how much power you can draw at any one time. Instead, you have to look at the Peak Amp draw x the pack's P number which gives you a total of usable Amps.

For the pack they don't have but I wanted: 30amp continuous 70amp maximum BMS,
So that would be 10amps discharge per cell,for the $600 killer whale pack.
10 x 5rows = 50amps maximum draw. Multiplied by the nominal voltage 48 = 2400Wh minus 20% = 1920wh at 80% charge... that is way too much.
And of course the 52V PANASONIC GA 13.5AH DOLPHIN does not say the maximum draw.
And I need somewhere around 150Wh per round trip for 6 miles at 25wh per mile. Roughly.
looks like I will just have to guess at the batterys also.

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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Nov 16 2018 6:26pm

OK I finnaly got it done. Here are the photos
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p1425730

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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Nov 22 2018 7:21pm

I finnaly took my first trip to town, mostly in a seriously low gear [Started out with 13.5Ah charged to 90%]. And I ran out of power on my ride back, smelled hydrogen from the battery. Then had to actualy pedal for a mile or so. Now my knees are in missery again.

I really need a CycleAnalyst

I was hauling about 450lbs total combined weight on the way back. Climbed one steep hill with no problem at all. So now I am thinking I need to experiment with higher gears. Like a 42t chainring [same as my MTB crank] for the trip into town, which is mostly a gradual down hill. And my 32t chainring for hill climbing. I didn't expect to need high gears, so now I must replace my front deraileur. I think one of the old Nuvinci CVT gear boxes would be perfect for finding the right gear ratio to ballance pedaling with motoring. But that is way out of my price range ability.

Next time I go to the food-bank I will take the charger and a long power cord. That is where I got a turkey and canned foods, very heavy.

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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Chalo » Nov 25 2018 5:25am

Hugh-Jassman wrote:
Nov 22 2018 7:21pm
I think one of the old Nuvinci CVT gear boxes would be perfect for finding the right gear ratio to ballance pedaling with motoring. But that is way out of my price range ability.
The first generation NuVinci hubs can be found for cheap, or scrounged. But they waste a discouraging amount of your available power, especially in the lowest part of the ratio range. You also have to interrupt power before the hub will let you shift (which can be a bummer on a steep hill).

I don't know what you smelled from your battery, but hydrogen has no odor.

How much elevation gain are you dealing with? When I lived in Seattle and built my own first couple of e-bikes, I used them to commute from my workplace down on the water up to the Admiral-California junction in West Seattle, and later up over the ridge of Capitol Hill when I moved to the Central District. Both those climbs were in the 350 foot range.
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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Nov 26 2018 4:10pm

I have smelled this before from my off grid battery bank, could it be ozone?

our tallest hill is about 145ft, at about 16% grade for the worst part.

Chalo wrote:
Nov 25 2018 5:25am




I don't know what you smelled from your battery, but hydrogen has no odor.

How much elevation gain are you dealing with? When I lived in Seattle and built my own first couple of e-bikes, I used them to commute from my workplace down on the water up to the Admiral-California junction in West Seattle, and later up over the ridge of Capitol Hill when I moved to the Central District. Both those climbs were in the 350 foot range.
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Re: Mt. Goat Cycletruck Gearing

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Dec 12 2018 2:53pm

What gear ratios do you have on those cycle tracktors? And do you have one with a flat bed for hauling bricks, gravel and comopst?? Show me your website?

I just discovered that I have a 20:1 gear ratio and that has to be the resaon I was getting such bad mileage on the first trip to town. So now I am going to use some thing like 8.46:1 for crusing down a 3% grade into town at a reasonable speed. Maybe a 13.2:1 for most other driving. And save the lowest gears for very serious hill climbing with cargo. But maybe I don't even need such low gears.

I don't yet know what low cruising speed rpm I can use for the aprox.3% grade into town, but I should get a lot better mileage as long as I don't try going to faster than I would if I were pedaling.





Chalo wrote:
Aug 25 2018 9:20pm
Regarding cycle trucks, the new generation of six passenger pedicabs where I work is rolling on out. This design is proven up to gross weights of well over 2000 pounds. It has chain drive from Cyclone motor directly to the rear differential.

(The one in the picture hasn't gotten its seating yet.)


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