How to make a carbon fiber block?

rg12

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Seen this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwZx3GrQDL0
He says that it's made from 87 layers of 6k carbon which is about twice as thick as 3k.
Do you have any idea what is the process to produce a block like this?
Is it done with vaccum? a press? epoxy between each layer or maybe all soaked?
 
6k carbon fiber/fibre tow
layers and layers and layers, then compressed maybe heated, perhaps vacuumed.

Epoxied I dunno, easy enough to find out

I guess that it all depends on the characteristics you want to achieve in the final outcome of your product.
 
A lot of carbon fiber comes in pre impregnated rolls where it's already epoxy soaked at the factory. He mentioned it taking a lot of layups, totally a guess but prob a few layers laid up, then some pressing, then more layers etc, baked, then waterjetted on the edges.
 
For sure all the surfaces of the carbon fibers need to be wetted with epoxy. Vacuum needed to get the air bubbles out. Press/mold needed if you want perfectly flat surfaces.

A block like that would be pretty strong. I hate working with carbon fiber though. Worse than fiberglass for splintering and getting stuck in your skin. Dust is super dangerous too, like asbestos.
 
A lot of the layups these days you don't even need to wet the cloth out with liquid epoxy. It's just gooey enough to stick as you add layers, then compress and bake. It prevents the final stage of mixing the epoxy at the wrong ratios, and not fully wetting out the cloth etc...
 
So without adding epoxy what will hold it together and make it stiff?
 
Yes.. The epoxy is already in the cloth... And sometimes adding in liquid epoxy that isn't at the perfect mix ratios can add weaker shear layers and extra weight that isn't doing much for the structure. Keeping the prepeg cloth at the right temps in storage and then baking it at the right temp and pressure are the two big things to watch.
 
Now they're able to forge carbon fiber too, where it doesn't even start out as cloth... Some of the super cars are using the forged carbon connecting rods, which wasn't doable up until recently.

rod.jpg
chips.jpg
 
Voltron said:
Now they're able to forge carbon fiber too, where it doesn't even start out as cloth... Some of the super cars are using the forged carbon connecting rods, which wasn't doable up until recently.

They can call that process forging if they want to, but that's not what it is. It's molding, and it's way more like a paper making process than like any kind of metal forming. I guess "carbon Masonite" doesn't sound as glamorous.
 
Forging....

"There are many different kinds of forging processes available; however, they can be grouped into three main classes:

Drawn out: length increases, cross-section decreases

Upset: length decreases, cross-section increases

Squeezed in closed compression dies: produces multidirectional flow"

That last one sounds like what they're doing?

And part of the process is that under the intense heat and pressure of the "forging", the little jagged edges of the chips unravel a bit and wrap around the neighboring chips, then as they cool they all interlock. It's not just a bunch of spooge glued together.

And anyway, not matter what you call the process, it functions like a forged metal part when you're done, ...
 
From another source...

"Forging and casting are two very different manufacturing methods. When something is cast the material is heated above its melting temperature and poured into a mold where it solidifies. When something is forged it is physically forced into shape while remaining in a solid state – although it is frequently heated."
 
If the process were done with metal, it would be called sintering. So maybe it's better described as carbon-resin sintering.
 
My first guess is Resin Transfer Molding. I can't imagine either a wet layup or even an 87 layer prepreg. Yikes! Next guess would be vacuum infusion, maybe not so reliable for such a thick block. I'm sure it goes in an autoclave, high pressure/high heat.

Carbon fiber starts at epoxy and moves up, I suppose the better materials might just be considered more expensive epoxy. Such as things your dentist uses to fill your teeth. If you try using esters it can damage your carbon fiber, as well as running a high risk of delamination.

If they did build that up from a layup, I would assume it would be in a housing similar to the first video, but there'd be a caul plate on top to give the perfect surface.

Sintering is compressed dry powder, by the way. Then "Sintered" with heat. Plastic equivalents I haven't known to be strong, but they could be out there. Golf clubs are I think pretty well all out of autoclave at this point. I don't think those connecting rods are on the market yet, but what an interesting idea.

6k cloth means 6,000 strands. Times 87. You probably try to get your resin down to 30% of that block weight. The resin provides less than 10% of the strength but it protects the textile reinforcement. It is actually weaker for there being extra resin, as the matrix is vulnerable without the textile reinforcement. Like your windshield, the chip leads to crazing.

But how do they CUT that thing? I've never learned much beyond basic cutting with abrasive blades. (Gulleted were recommended at school.) 1/5th the weight of steel but you might expect 8 times as strong, though more vulnerable in certain ways. Almost as strong as the titanium they embed for the hinges on the airplane control surfaces. Except the forged composites are supposed to be even stronger. And yes they can call it forging, that's how forging is done in composites.

(Multiple award winning composites student here.)

[youtube]1u-2GvhghQA[/youtube]

[youtube]mbrq2fDN8bA[/youtube]
 
Chalo said:
If the process were done with metal, it would be called sintering. So maybe it's better described as carbon-resin sintering.


From another extract where they are doing metal powder based connecting rods describing the steps...

"The
sintering step creates metallurgical
bonds between the powder particles
imparting mechanical strength to the
preform. The forging step reshapes
the preform to its final configuration
and reduces the porosity to nearly
zero."

You can do liquid based sintering too, where the particles are suspended in fluid.

In the end I guess it really doesn't matter what its called, esp as it isn't weave based the the block is, just to circle back around...

Re cutting.. with carbon its pretty much waterjet world. Does away with the dust, splintering and localized heating of blade cutting in one easy step.

[youtube]15VQcxG2QXI[/youtube]
 
Dauntless said:
My first guess is Resin Transfer Molding. I can't imagine either a wet layup or even an 87 layer prepreg. Yikes! Next guess would be vacuum infusion, maybe not so reliable for such a thick block. I'm sure it goes in an autoclave, high pressure/high heat.

Carbon fiber starts at epoxy and moves up, I suppose the better materials might just be considered more expensive epoxy. Such as things your dentist uses to fill your teeth. If you try using esters it can damage your carbon fiber, as well as running a high risk of delamination.

If they did build that up from a layup, I would assume it would be in a housing similar to the first video, but there'd be a caul plate on top to give the perfect surface.

Sintering is compressed dry powder, by the way. Then "Sintered" with heat. Plastic equivalents I haven't known to be strong, but they could be out there. Golf clubs are I think pretty well all out of autoclave at this point. I don't think those connecting rods are on the market yet, but what an interesting idea.

6k cloth means 6,000 strands. Times 87. You probably try to get your resin down to 30% of that block weight. The resin provides less than 10% of the strength but it protects the textile reinforcement. It is actually weaker for there being extra resin, as the matrix is vulnerable without the textile reinforcement. Like your windshield, the chip leads to crazing.

But how do they CUT that thing? I've never learned much beyond basic cutting with abrasive blades. (Gulleted were recommended at school.) 1/5th the weight of steel but you might expect 8 times as strong, though more vulnerable in certain ways. Almost as strong as the titanium they embed for the hinges on the airplane control surfaces. Except the forged composites are supposed to be even stronger. And yes they can call it forging, that's how forging is done in composites.

(Multiple award winning composites student here.)

[youtube]1u-2GvhghQA[/youtube]

[youtube]mbrq2fDN8bA[/youtube]

If no resin is needed then why can't they just lay 87 layers and have a press stick it all together and just bake it and cut the edges off for a nice finish?
or maybe baking is not even needed if you press it insanely hard with an hydraulic press?
 
Baking is def still needed... You need to get the epoxy up to a threshold temperature to get it to go off. Unless you're talking insane high pressure, but then you're going to end up with a block of diamond... Lol.

And just a guess, but might be too hard getting all the air bubbles out with laying it all up in one round.

Or they might be resin transferring a few layers at a time, then add adding more and more to the stack.
 
Prepreg layup... good shot of the autoclave and removal from the tool starting at about 8:00. Thats the thing that makes it difficult with prepreg is you have to have the giant oven to kickstart the epoxy. With liquid epoxy, you can do it at room temp as it has its own endothermic reaction that starts after mixing... but that can turn into its own crazy thing if it starts going off too fast and outgassing. The reaction heat can be pretty intense!

[youtube]PGGiuaQwcd8[/youtube]
 
rg12 said:
If no resin is needed then why can't they just lay 87 layers and have a press stick it all together and just bake it and cut the edges off for a nice finish?
or maybe baking is not even needed if you press it insanely hard with an hydraulic press?

No ADDITIONAL resin. Prepreg has resin without a catalyst. If you were doing a wet layup you'd spread resin with each layer then stipple the bubbles. The vacuum infusion doesn't require the wet layup. Prepreg let's you place a layer and you roller it flat.to get what bubble you can. If it's just a flat panel you wind up with a bag on it much like in the vacuum video.

If you had high school physics you learned that water bubbles when it is heated to a boil because the bubbles expa d, the same thing happens in a vacuum. A wet layup might have a catalyst in the resin as you're accusted to mixing when you use it. You can measure the resin heating itself, and thats how it sets.

Without a catalyst, which is missing in the prepreg, you have to heat it some other way. They have UVB activated that you can put in the sun or under a special light, mostly you go to an oven. Some are oridinary but at least have vacuum lines. Then there's the autoclave, which is a pressure cooker. If any air remains with the vacuum before heating, it'll expand and the vacuum just keeps sucking. A normal temperature is 300 degrees, for hours, not minutes. The jobs and materials have their requirements.

The pressure and vacuum are also intended to bleed off excess resin. I'd guess those wheels are cut to fit before layup, but I've never made one.

The rezins in composites are thermoset, it won't actually melt until something like 1100 degrees. They have a lower forming temperature where they become pliable, I learned about peeling resin coating off circuit boards in boiling water where the resin still doesn't bend.

There is no pressing this stuff together, the carbon fiber would crumble. It's a strange phenomenom to learn about, this stuff is so strong and so brittle. The resin is not as strong as the reinforcement. Except in a few ways. Such as you can roll up that carbon fiber cloth and bend it to break. But the resin won't let it bend. It also causes the whole thing to share the stress, like if you pull a sheet of paper and the ends it doesn't tear as easy as if you grab one little edge and pull from there.

Composites are about combining materials that cover one another's weaknesses. Tinsel strength combines with compressive strength to make a super material. Strong, and oh so light. The F18 on up has the g limiter that prevents the 9g turns the Navy pilots would make in the 'Top Gun' fighters, but that doesn't mean the plane can't take it.
 
markz said:
$ound$
Expen$ive!

If I wanted to add holes for a bottle cage or rack then no dice, just hose clamps.

Naw, man-- you could just "forge" some bosses on there. Right?
 
I assumed this "forged" carbon would be cheaper/quicker to make than layup but would be weaker due to the comparatively short length and random orientation of the strands, but reading suggests this isn't the case, that it's somehow stronger?
 
Punx0r said:
I assumed this "forged" carbon would be cheaper/quicker to make than layup but would be weaker due to the comparatively short length and random orientation of the strands, but reading suggests this isn't the case, that it's somehow stronger?

Squishing the flakes into a die would tend to align the fibers parallel to the surface of the finished part, which is useful for a golf club face. It certainly won't make the fibers any longer, nor align them to each other.

For a connecting rod, there's an advantage in achieving weight reduction even if the part isn't stronger than a conventional one. Soaking a safety-critical plastic component in oil that's laden with random combustion byproducts, and then subjecting it to heavy thermal cycling, doesn't seem like a very good idea to me, though.
 
You should call up the engineers at Maserati that developed the process and tell them your opinion Chalo, I'm sure they would be very interested... :roll:
 
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