Mt.Goat Cycletruck / Cyclone3000 build

Talk about anything and everything here within reason.
Post Reply
User avatar
Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 407
Joined: Jun 20 2015 12:57pm

Mt.Goat Cycletruck / Cyclone3000 build

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Nov 16 2018 6:11pm

About eight years ago I needed a new utility bicycle [my old mountain bike was worn out] so I did about a years worth of research and measured design work. Then took a summer to file the tubes to fit for welding, and paid a professional welder to stick all the parts together. And took the frame over to the next town to have it powder-coated with baked-on enamel. Then last fall I put a motor on it because my knees are wiped out from arthritis.
steer tube extention with jig.jpg
steer tube extention with jig.jpg (83.42 KiB) Viewed 1726 times

Mounting bracket

To mount this motor so it would not wobble I just had to have fun making a new bracket. The tube between the flat plates is the thing that holds the whole assembly rigid.

3/16th inch thick 6061 aluminum angle bar and 1 x 3 inch rectangular tube, with flat bar; it all came together just right to stiffen up the bracket arms with no wobble at all. Both of the brackets sides, are held together with 4 inch long [5/16th inch] carriage-head bolts [these really need to be flat head bolts] because the hex heads of the regular bolts didn't give enough room for the chain.

Using a drill press was essential to use the hole-saw for the big hole. I decided it was easier to use a hack saw and files than to keep going to town to get more jig saw blades.

I used Red JB thread locker on the bolts. All bolts should be stainless steel in a wet climate. But maybe varnish could keep the heads of the flat headed bolts from rusting. And of course plenty of grease in the threads.

Idler assembly

After having to move the motor over a little to lineup with the chainring, I had to adjust the idler to keep it from grinding against the motor sprockets. And ended up moving the idler arm over a bit. Then later found that I should have used the short arm first before adding the longer arm.

Wire Connectors

I found waterproof aircraft connectors for the hall sensor wires. And used bullet connectors for the phase wire extensions up to the front box. And butt-splice connectors covered with friction tape, to connect pre-soldered XT90 connectors to the CycleAnalyst's shunt [between the battery and the controller].

Triple chainwheel crank

My MTB crank spider is about 3mm [⅛”] between the smallest and middle chain-ring. So I found 11mm ID split-ring lock-washers that are 3.3-3.5mm thick, and had to be bend them back to flat [long handled pliers and vice] to bolt them down with round head 5mm x .80 pitch threads 25mm long. Nylon spacers are a different thickness and can compress, so I had to use steel.
The space between the outer chainwheel [motor-chain driven] and the middle does not need a spacer if using luna's heavy duty “chainwheels” because the heavy duty 40t chainring will not flex like the computer engineered chainrings will.

However there is a problem of the chain getting stuck between the sprockets when it jumps off the sprockets. I may need something to prevent that. And the carriage bolts I used to hold the plates together gets in the way of putting the chain back on. So I am going to have to replace them with flat head bolts. Even if they are black rustable steel with varnish on them.

I think I could use regular chainring bolts if I could get them 16mm long, then the 5mm bolts would not be needed. But the chainring bolts interfere with the chain on the 32t chainring. The lock-nuts will not fit under the crank arm. But they do-not rub against anything on the bike side.

These “chainwheels” may not shift as easy as the computer engineered kind but they will last much longer. So I slow down and shift by pedal power only before I start climbing our 16% grade hills drawing about 1400watts from the battery pack.

The sprocket tips are 5mm apart [disc to disc]. But the spacers are 3 to 3.5mm thick. Since the teeth tips are now 5mm apart, maybe the spacers need to be 1.5mm for the sprocket tips to be 3mm apart.

Gear ratios[23” moped tire on 19” motorcycle rim]
These are the gears I use most for hauling a total combined weight of 400-450lbs with a 52 volt battery. I should have bought a 60v pack with 32Ah because I am averaging 43Ah per mile without pedaling. And a larger battery would last longer.

I like using only two gears because shifting the rear gears makes the chain jerk against the sprockets, even if I let go of the throttle and spin the crank to shift before accelerating again.

14T sprocket on the rear gives me a mid gear of 6.59:1 for over all cruising. Then if I shift down to the 32t chainwheel on the crank I get a low gear of 8.25:1....I should get luna's 24t chainwheel for a lower gear of 11:1.....it looks to me like I better not get rid of my cassette, I may need to shift the rear gears once in a while.

If I wanted a single gear ratio I would need a 44t sprocket on the rear with the 14 on the motor. For the 8.25:1 or 32t sprocket for the 11:1 that I would get from using a 24t chainwheel on the crank in place of the 32. unless my math is all wrong.

Would the 72volt difference make up for the lack of a higher gear from 6.6:1 to the 11:1? That would be a lot of extra watts from the battery.

The lowest Mt.Goat granny gear is 20:1 with the 32 on the crank and the 34 on the cassette. That is probably enough to haul 600lbs up a 16% grade, but I have not been able to test the limits because my battery is too small to achieve maximum wattage and still get home.

Tires
If children weigh about 50 to100lbs each? [three children and one over sized adult could easily weigh 600lbs then there are the groceries and the weight of the vehicle] When I build one of these bikes I am going to engineer it for at least 650lbs [On two wheels]; but maybe I really should build a three wheeled vehicle for 750lbs max. That will probably need at least three solid wheels with motorcycle tires, and a larger motor with a very low gear. And I think it may need a belt drive for motor. How strong can spoked wheel be made for such a low gear? Interesting how the trust force goes from the chain to the spokes when using a very low gear. Maybe I could still use a chain drive then? [But not for tractor pulling competition.]

Hauling 550lbs [250kg] on 4 tires will need to handle at only 150lbs each [68kg] but for a bicycle with trailer or even worse a long box bike with only two tires a minimum of 275lbs each that would require larger than 2.25” motorcycle tires I think 2.75” to 3 inch 4ply tires are needed. [never engineer to only the minimum needed] Two 16inch x 2.5” diameter tire on the front and one 17inch x 3D tire on the rear should do it.

I will need a 42t sprocket on the rear cassette with the 32t chainwheel on the front.And the rear derailleur may need a longer hanger.

Single freewheel bearings

my old cheap crank freewheel bearing is rusted up from too much rain so now I need to spend another $120 yeash....but worth the money.
http://sickbikeparts.com/front-freewhee ... avy-duty/ or this one a little cheaper:
http://sickbikeparts.com/front-freewheel-heavy-duty/ but which is best fro being rainproof?


Warning!
Do Not use a whimpy Bicycle frame rear end like I did. The motor can pull the rear end over and you will have to have the frame straightened like I did. It is much more sensible to build a rear end out of rectangular tubing. Even if you must have it welded rigid to use a mid-drive kit with.

I am now going to have to build a bolt on rear end out of stainless steel rectangular tubes. Like work hardening 304 or 316 stainless steel. No painting needed.


Exploration of possibilities:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/view ... =1&t=94449
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=99337
the secret to tinning silicone covered wire.JPG
the secret to tinning silicone covered wire.JPG (187.21 KiB) Viewed 789 times
Attachments
MtGoat Cycletruck.JPG
MtGoat Cycletruck.JPG (199.98 KiB) Viewed 5876 times
birth of cycletruck.jpg
birth of cycletruck.jpg (92.91 KiB) Viewed 5876 times
front rack.jpg
front rack.jpg (37.4 KiB) Viewed 5876 times
Bracket mounting.JPG
Bracket mounting.JPG (218.77 KiB) Viewed 5876 times
Breacket mounting bottom view.JPG
Breacket mounting bottom view.JPG (177.88 KiB) Viewed 5876 times
new idler assembly finnished.jpg
new idler assembly finnished.jpg (154.59 KiB) Viewed 5876 times
idler assembly.jpg
idler assembly.jpg (215.18 KiB) Viewed 5876 times
connectors.JPG
connectors.JPG (231.83 KiB) Viewed 5876 times
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Mar 16 2021 3:21pm, edited 25 times in total.

User avatar
Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 407
Joined: Jun 20 2015 12:57pm

three speed settings

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Nov 17 2018 2:52pm

over drive settings.JPG
over drive settings.JPG (13.36 KiB) Viewed 1189 times
These settings a are for use with a Pedal Assist Sensor inplace of an accelerator they are needed to help regulate the speed when the crank sensor cannot tell how hard you are pushing on the pedals. Using an accelerator you won't need the three position switch.

The higher setting increases the voltage which results in lower amps at the same cruising wattage [so a conservative cruiser will use use less power]. But when using more amps to climb hills with heavy cargo, it will deliver more RPMs, which is very good to increase the Kinetic thrust with lower gears to help keep the motor from bogging down and therefore not over heat as easily.

So I just twisted the medium and high setting wires together, no switch needed. Using a smaller diameter drive tire without a lower gear set I really need the higher RPMs. Not for speed, but just to make up for the slow gearing.

It does seem to give a bit more thrust but if I want a lot more thrust I will have to build my larger battery pack at 60 or 72v nominal and use a sine-wave controller. Like a Kelly KLS-H – Sealed Sinusoidal Wave Brushless DC Motor Controller (24V-84V) (150A-500A) https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/kls-h/
The only problem is they need an Android tablet to program them.

Controllers can double the amps when drive at half voltage which can overheat a motor. So having a higher voltage to start with should help as long as you're not trying to drive at full throttle as gravity slows your motor down. I wish someone would make a Magnetometer to read motor amps. But a controller that reads motor phase amps should keep the motor from overheating.

A Phaserunner controller is an “FOC” controller and is very different than a trapezoidal / sine wave controller. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=65031&hilit=phaserunner#p976242
A FOC would give you the best efficiency possible, wildly customisable throttle response, would be even quieter than a sine wave controller, phase advance, and other goodies. Phase advance lets you optimize your battery voltage.
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Oct 06 2020 4:13pm, edited 9 times in total.

User avatar
Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 407
Joined: Jun 20 2015 12:57pm

Triple crank set

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Nov 17 2018 2:53pm

rebuild washers of verius kinds to make spacers.JPG
rebuild washers of verius kinds to make spacers.JPG (467.07 KiB) Viewed 45 times
My MTB crank spider is about 3mm [⅛”] between the smallest and middle chain-ring. So I found 11mm ID split-ring lock-washers that are 3.3-3.5mm thick had to be bent them back to flat [long handled pliers and vice] to bolt them down with round head 5mm x .80 pitch threads 25mm long. Nylon spacers are a different thickness and can compress, so I had to use steel spacers.

The space between the outer chainwheel [motor sprocket driven] and the middle does not need a spacer if using luna's heavy duty “chain wheels” because the heavy duty 40t chainring will not flex like the computer engineered chainrings will.

I think I could use regular chainring bolts if I could get them 16mm long, then the 5mm bolts would not be needed. But the chainring bolts interfere with the chain on the 32t chainwheel.

The image on luna's website showing a triple crank, shows the round heads on the wrong side. The lock-nuts will not fit under the crank arm. But they do-not rub against anything on the bike side.

These “chainwheels” don't shift as easy as the computer engineered kind but they will last much longer. So I slow down and shift before I start climbing our 16% grade hills drawing about 1400watts from the battery pack. But they do last for many years. you can get them at "sick bike parts.com" and the crank free wheel: https://sickbikeparts.com/front-freewheel-heavy-duty/

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=94449
Attachments
luna's HD chainwheels.JPG
luna's HD chainwheels.JPG (118.27 KiB) Viewed 4896 times
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on May 17 2022 3:31pm, edited 16 times in total.

parjacpar   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 3
Joined: Nov 21 2018 2:19am

Re: Mt.Goat Cycletruck / Cyclone3000 build

Post by parjacpar » Nov 21 2018 9:25pm

Thanks for the great read as really enjoyed reading it

I have no experience with this so cant help you but do like the mountain bracket as people have mentioned about the bracket motor comes with flexes and twists

User avatar
Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 407
Joined: Jun 20 2015 12:57pm

Cyclone 3000 idler arm assembly

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Jan 03 2019 3:52pm

I have been trying several ways to assemble the idler arms , and discovered that the short arm should have been put on first. I may have gotten a kit that was rejected, what with all the things wrong with it. Like the left side mounting bracket did not fit at all. So I built one that is much better it holds the motor perfectly still, no wobble at all.
Attachments
cyclone tensioner.jpg
cyclone tensioner.jpg (23.19 KiB) Viewed 5871 times
idler assembly short arm first.jpg
idler assembly short arm first.jpg (20.96 KiB) Viewed 5871 times
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Jan 09 2020 3:23pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 407
Joined: Jun 20 2015 12:57pm

mileage

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Jan 05 2019 3:40pm

Watt-hours needed for a Cycletruck

My cycle-truck is using about 43 watt-hours per mile average without climbing the really steep hills with heavy cargo. But when climbing a steep hill the motor can use over 50Wh/mile. I calculated at 30Wh per mile needed before buying the battery, and ended up with a 13.5Ah battery pack that is too small, even at very slow speeds.

I put a higher gear on my Cyclone-3000 kit for driving down a 3% grade into town, but I don't think that the gears are going to make much difference.

I do not pedal because my knees have too much arthritis, but some-one should have told about what it is like when hauling cargo [400-450lb total combined weight] in the pacific NW.

One really steep hill was drawing at least 1400watts from the battery. Most of the hills can be done at around 1000w if slow moving at a slow pedaling speed.
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Oct 30 2019 3:23pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 407
Joined: Jun 20 2015 12:57pm

Re: Mt.Goat Cycletruck / Cyclone3000 build

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Apr 10 2019 1:53pm

Hauling just another 50lbs the mileage use went up to 50Wh per mile. So I am going to build a 32Ah or larger battery pack 60v or 72v. But it may take a year or longer.



https://lunacycle.com/cyclone-chainwhee ... -sprocket/

https://lunacycle.com/cyclone-replacement-chainwheel/


I found some 4”x 5/16th” flat headed stainless steel bolts to hold the stabilizer tube between the bracket plates. Carriage bolt heads were not low enough for a triple crank [to put the chain back on the sprockets after falling off]. I had to brake the chain open more than once, just to get it back on.
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Jan 09 2020 3:24pm, edited 10 times in total.

User avatar
markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 12306
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Canada and the USA

Re: Mt.Goat Cycletruck / Cyclone3000 build

Post by markz » Apr 11 2019 4:13pm

You know, you won't be legal with that Cyclone 3kw ya know :wink: may have to go 250W because some gov't knob-head says so :wink:

Nevermind the sarcasm

The C3kw idler is a cheap unit, lots of real idlers available from bicycle stores. I remember my first ride, the chain kept slipping off the teeth, I never rode it for long because it made too much noise and ppl could hear me coming up. Which is good in a way right, but not some unknown sound of gears in a motor, I have a loose front mud guard that makes just enough noise for ppl to hear me. I still got the c3kw, but the mistake I made was I did not use anti-seize on the bb so when I took it off, I had to collapse the male threaded part with a pipe wrench just to take it out.

User avatar
Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 407
Joined: Jun 20 2015 12:57pm

power limitations

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Apr 20 2019 1:19pm

new idler wheel.JPG
new idler wheel.JPG (396.32 KiB) Viewed 5640 times
new indexed thumb shifter.JPG
new indexed thumb shifter.JPG (150.45 KiB) Viewed 5640 times


The fastest I move is under 18mph except when riding down hill with the motor off. And seldom use more than 50 watt hours average on a trip.
I use some very low gears to make it possible to climb certain steep hills with less wattage. But the gear ratio is very slow. I don't think that using higher voltage can actually replace a lower gear, but it would be good to find out how using a lower gear and a higher voltage together would help.

When I come home from the food bank I feel like I am hauling 450 to 500lbs total combined weight. And my MtGoat cycle truck feels a bit too top heavy. So I would really like to build a cycletruck with a low center of gravity cargo bed and 2.75inch 4ply motorcycle tires on 16inch rims. I have also had problems with my tiny trailer shaking my bicycle side to side when it was over loaded too much to the rear of the small wheel [untill I applied more power].

When accelerating hard to start a steep climb, or cross a street that has a rise in the middle, my CycleAnalyst shows that the controller is pulling up to 1800watts for a few moments then settles back to about 1400watts. And our state allows about 900 to 1000watts output from the motor. Well there is no way to know what the power rating is at the drive axle without taking it to a testing station.

I intend to build a larger battery to help keep the cells cooler [by creating a larger C-rate]. A 2Kwh pack made of samsung 29E cells would be the best.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=99952

If I wanted to build a survivalist off road bike I think I would get the largest motor [and a couple or three folding solar panels to charge with] and 4 inch tires. [with a 415 chain and a motorcycle transmission] That may require a 197mm wide hub:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=103547


000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

More trouble with the crankset [the idler was not in the right place] led me to removing the plastic pant guard, but I had to disassemble the whole damn thing to get to the last two screws holding it on. And then I lost another one of the chainring bolts. Fortunately I had an old crank to take parts off of. But I still need longer ones for extra parts. I also discovered that the quick link for the short chain from the motor must have the open end facing the back of the bike. So when I turned the chain around without redirecting the link, it came off while testing the operation.

My next bike will use a 5 to 1 planetary geared hub motor; and re-lube it often. As well as building a much larger battery. Then I can forget the chain/sprocket misery.

Crank freewheel bearing. I forgot to tighten the 5mm bolts [that hold the two extra chain wheels] to the freewheel flange, so the whole assembly ran a bit wobbly. But there is still some wobble from the cheap flange free wheel, so I need to spend $90 to $120 bucks for a really good one from 'Sick Bike parts.





Cheap derailleurs. I could not put a new gear cable on the new indexed thumb shifter I got, because the threads are stripped out on the device that hold the cable. The only carriage bolts I could find for the derailleur were 3/16th - 24tpi but the idiot hardware store had no such nuts for them. I would use rounded head bolts, but there is no way to hold the bolts while adjusting the cable tension and crank down on the nut at the same time. I think that all derailleurs have cheap crappy parts made of soft metals that allow the threads to strip out. So I should just find a used derailleur for spare parts.

Idler wheels. I got a pair of aluminum Sealed Bearing Jockey Wheels for only $10. But I may need to file the sides of the teeth to make them fit the chain better. These do not help the chain stay on the sprockets because it was the other chain that was jumping off. But I should get some red ones for the rear derailleur, and never put dirty greasy oil on the chain.

And now I am thinking about what kind of battery to build
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=99952
I finally understand the reason to buy a programmable controller:
My controller for my Cyclone3000 is set to cut off too high:
30% of 58.8v = 17.64v but my controller cuts off at about 39v which is 66.326% of 58.8v
yet 39v is 30.7% of 78.8v

If the bike weight is under 300 pounds, the 10 turn motor is reasonably efficient up hills and does not melt. Your mid drive motor gets warm too I'm sure. But it can gear down and run 5 mph. 5 mph up a hill overloaded, will melt the geared hub motor. Reasonably loaded, the geared motor will climb the hills at 12-15 mph, and run pretty efficient.

Geared hubs have gears that are weaker than a typical bicycle chain, so it is better to use a BB drive then, and have the benefit of a gear set that can be shifted.

12 turn Hub-motor vs Mid-drive for hill climbing ??

Idler wheel

The aluminum idler wheel didn't last very long [I should have known it couldn't last long], But it was so nice to have to work on it in the cold, wet mud and greasy christmas afternoon. I need a stainless steel chain idler wheel 4cm with 11 tooth [sprockets]

Does ceramic disintegrate when stressed? [If they are made with air holes they will] Or do they use some kind of super ceramic formula. I suppose I will have to waste money finding the answer to that.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=98803&p=1466686#p1467113
idler wheel.JPG
idler wheel.JPG (279.26 KiB) Viewed 3537 times
rebuild cheap idler.JPG
rebuild cheap idler.JPG (419.83 KiB) Viewed 43 times
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on May 17 2022 2:51pm, edited 7 times in total.

User avatar
Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 407
Joined: Jun 20 2015 12:57pm

Improved Cycletruck

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Aug 23 2019 1:48pm

Thinking about improvements for my next cycletruck

If you want to use a Motorcycle tire on the rear, you should look at the width of the Mid-drive kits; my kit has a very wide crank spindle because of the with of the motor. The left side should be at least as wide as the right side. The crank spindles that are on bikes are not wide enough for your foot to clear the rear tire unless the bicycle is made for a 3 or 4 inch wide tire. You can get them new at a reasonable price now. However most people do not understand the difference between a hub motor and a mid-drive. Hub motors are made for speed not for hill climbing with cargo. You will probably need two hub motors to do the job of one mid-drive kit to climb steep hills with 450lbs total combined weight.

I wish someone would build a bike with one of each kind of motor with the ability to switch between them. and using a CycleAnalyst meter you could make a video to show just exactly what the difference in power use is. But there is nothing better than a two speed gear system.

My Motor draws up to 1800 or 1900 watts for a very few moments climbing a steep hill. but it does not put out that much power. The controller allows it to suck 41 amps from the battery. But for hill climbing I use low gears so I can keep it under 1200watts coming from the battery. The battery is 52volt nominal so I am able to charge it up to 57 volts and a little more, this will keep the battery form destroying it's self.. I keep it under the maximum of 58 volts, and drain some off when the charge goes over 56volts unless I am about to use the power right away. 56Volts the night before is about 80% and I really need a much larger pack of cells that drain faster yet hold less electrons. [the Samsung 29E]. Higher voltage would help draw more amps with less heat, to climb steep hills. But having more copper in the motor helps it deal with heat produced when climbing hills with out enough power. [If you really want a hub motor it should have more copper and some vent holes, if you can think of a way to keep out the rain].

I put 750watts on my motor because there is no way to know exactly what it will output [short of testing on an expensive machine] and my gears are so low that I never go faster than 16mph unless I am riding down a steep hill without the motor on.
If you really want to use hub motors, it is so much better to use two of them just to have more copper and heat control: [see the motor graph]. Hub motors produce far more waste heat than Mid-Drive motors and do not let go of it well. I like the idea of using a large mid mounted motor set with a single speed reduction. I managed to build a two speed front crank that does not jump off the sprockets. And I always try to accelerate slowly enough to keep the chain from braking. This is another difference between a speed bike and a utility bike. Building a cargo bike for racing is an absurd concept.

Putting an extension on the rear will give some room behind the seat post to mount the motor, so I don't have to run the motor power through the crank set. Making the cranks sprockets last much longer. And I will be able to use a stronger chain from the motor to the drive sprockets.
Improved MtGoat cycletruck small.png
Improved MtGoat cycletruck small.png (122.14 KiB) Viewed 1361 times
The rear end that holds the drive wheel
Hub motors really need a suspension system for those large pot holes. But either way I think that 1/4” inch flat bar could work for a motor that is not pulling from one side. But rectangular tubing is far better: ¾” x 2” would be the best. Stainless steel is better if you can't afford to powder-coat paint the frame. It also does not need to be annealed after welding.
My drive hub allows for 3/16th inch thick dropouts, 1/4” is too thick. The walls of the rectangular tubing I got are .062” thick so I could use three walls thick for the dropouts. [3/16 in = 0.1875 in = 0.1875 × 25.4 mm = 4.8 mm]

If you need to weld on an extra bottom bracket tube get one at least as wide as the tire. My 2.25” motorcycle tire is actually 2.48” wide so a 3.5 to 4 inch wide tube is about right to make the rectangular tubes go straight back past the tire. But make sure to place the tube directly in the center of the frame, or the steering will be screwed up. My pedals are about 7.5 inches apart total but the left side is farther out than the right side. 3.5” on the crank side and 4inch on the left side. So the extra BB tube should be no wider than 6 inches with the ¼inch flat bars sticking out the front of the rectangular tubes [6.5”]. But keep in-mind that the hub is probably going to be wider so You will need to cut and weld the rear extension. [135 mm = 135 ÷ 25.4 in = 5.31496062992126 inch] a 4.83inch wide tube is just abut right. And it could be any tube that will hold a 3/4inh thick bolt. Like a
1”O.D. tube with .120 inch wall [11 gauge] would be a nicely snug fit [you don't want the bolt to rattle around in the tube much] .120 in = .120 × 25.4 mm = 3 mm or 1.125” is 1/8th inch. A ¾” inch bolt is only .745” thick. A 170mm wide hub would be very good to allow more room for chain or belt drives. [170 mm = 170 ÷ 25.4 in = 6.692913385826772 inch]
  • Head tube should be 2.5” Inch x.083 wall with 1.334” ID
    1.125 inch steer tube. X .095” wall. With 955” ID [About 2ft long each]

    Handlebars 7/8th inch OD x .875” wall

    Extension holding tube 1” OD x 120” wall

    Flat bar for dropouts and rear extension connection can be only 3/16th inch x 1.5” or 2 inch.

    Rectangular tube 3/4th by 2 inch or 1” x 2”

    1.25 inch square inch tubing for part of the frame is easy to find.
Mid Mount Motor Mod

I think I have finally found the best way to have a stump pulling gear for my MtGoat CycleTruck; use a direct drive hubmotor with the mid mounted Cyclone mid-drive motor with a single speed gear reduction ratio behind the seat post on a rear extension. This will use the hub motor as the high gear. Then torque will slowly shift to the mid mount motor. Yet still use power from both motors.

That way I will not have to use a absurdly slow gear ratio to climb the steep hills. But I will need to figure out exactly the right gear-ratio to use from the mid-mount motor mod. If your hills are steeper than an average geared hubmotor can deal with a mid-drive motor can be geared down lower than any geared hubmotor. A 3000watt cyclone motor is just barely strong enough to climb our 16% grades with 400lbs total combined weight. So you could use the larger cyclone motor. But without the higher gears to cruise with, a DD hub will help better than using the human powered drive chain and sprockets.

Gear Ratios
Ever since I changed the rear wheel to a 17” tire, my gear ratios were too slow. So I finally sat down and did some work. I figured out that I need to switch the 40t and the 44t chain wheels around [I don't think I can find a heavy duty 38t chain wheel] to have faster speeds and still have the hill climbing gears I need. Much better than messing with higher voltage or the three speed settings on the controller. Engineering an ebike is so much fun, I will have to build another one.

To make a chain guard disc for the 44t I had to use a 52t chainring. And of course no one makes one with a 104mm BCD or I had to drill holes for the 10.9mm BDC chainrings. 5-Bolt Cranks/Chainwheels: The BCD is: 1.701, 1/sin 36°, times the spacing between adjacent holes, 1.052 , 1/sin 72°, times the spacing between non-adjacent holes.

The cassette with the 42t sprocket did not workout. A lot of problems like bending and slapping and braking the smallest sprockets. I like the Shimano CS-HG50-8sp 11-34cassette with 1st [28t] 2nd [24t] 3rd [21t]. I don't actually need the 34t, but it works as a guard to keep the chain on the sprockets.

It may be good to mount the direct drive hub motor in my [16” rim] front wheel. But I may also need a larger battery pack because I will be climbing the steep hills faster. I don't know how much extra power will be needed by the extra controller etc.



I never expected my bike to be so much stronger, but the best way to make a machine that will last a life time is to over engineer it. Now I want to use a motorcycle head set and fork as well as steel motorcycle rims on my next bike; it should be for a 1.5 inch steer tube. Or at least us a 1.125” bicycle head set.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub4EP2 ... nXP2PjNnR



Two speed transmissions:
1. 2 Speed Tranny Idea viewtopic.php?f=28&t=10782
3. Epicyclic retro-direct 2 speed transmission https://endless-sphere.com/forums/view ... 8&start=25
4. Miles' Retro-Direct Gearbox viewtopic.php?f=28&t=8869


ergonomic crank forward placement.png
ergonomic crank forward placement.png (36.06 KiB) Viewed 5132 times
1st gear for hill climbing with 34t cassette.JPG
1st gear for hill climbing with 34t cassette.JPG (44.4 KiB) Viewed 1363 times
2nd gear for hill climbing with 34t cassette.JPG
2nd gear for hill climbing with 34t cassette.JPG (43.85 KiB) Viewed 1363 times
3rd gear for hill climbing with 34t cassette.JPG
3rd gear for hill climbing with 34t cassette.JPG (44.26 KiB) Viewed 1363 times
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Aug 09 2020 5:08pm, edited 13 times in total.

User avatar
Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 407
Joined: Jun 20 2015 12:57pm

Stump pulling gear [super-low grany-gear]

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Oct 30 2019 3:09pm

chainwheels and guard.JPG
chainwheels and guard.JPG (412.77 KiB) Viewed 4900 times
I can't recommend this maniacal project to anyone unless they know for sure they can't live without it. But I had more fun than hitting my hand with a hammer. It is very good to be able to shift down to a super low gear [0.54 :1 total gear reduction] when hauling 500lbs total combined weight. Grinding to a halt when climbing a hill because you don't have a low enough gear, is not fun if you have severe arthritis in your knees.

This stump pulling gear will also be good for plowing the field and for hauling 600lbs {total combined weight} up a 16% grade, but it will not be good for racing up a hill. Not that I need it for less than 400 lbs. If I had a larger battery pack I may not even need such a low gear. But that is a two thousand dollar project for next year. [224 Samsung 29E cells] viewtopic.php?f=14&t=99952; I drove up the second worst hill in town the other day without shifting down to the lowest possible gear.

If you don't see the side of the video it is because your browser is enlarged too much.




A 38t chainring works as a chain keeper on the 32 sprocket third chainwheel. I had to grind off the sprockets and use chainring bolts [6mm bolts from an old MTB crank works] and force fit the expandable lock washers over them to create a copacetic spacing between the new chainring “over shift guard” and the chainwheel. The thick 38t aluminum chainring is a bit too thick, so the bolts rub against the motor mounting bracket. Much better to use a thin steel chainring if you can find one.

BCD:104mm shape:round [not “round-oval”]
Diameter:32T/134mm [sprocket tip to sprocket tip], 38T/160mm [146mm without the sprockets].

The chain shifted down with no problem, but it would not shift up under load, unless I set the screw to over shift, then it wanted to jump off and get stuck between the first two chain wheels. So I built another derailment guard out of a 44t steel chain-ring to mount between the first two chain-wheels. I was not able to put a spacer between it and the largest chain wheel, but it was not needed because of the offset of the chainring. The tip of the 40t chainwheel [165mm Diameter] is at the bottom of the primary chain next to it. If I had plenty of money to throw at this project I would use a larger chain-wheel on the first reduction; maybe 48t just so I could use a 46t as the guard].

A 2.39mm and a 1.89mm washer together put the new guard in the right place. The thickness of these washers are not consistent, so take a digital caliper with you.

Be sure to go to to a local bicycle "recyclery" to find the right size steel chainring before buying an aluminum chainring.

8 speed cassette with 42t super low granny gear

My new 8 speed cassette with 42t sprocket [wow what a hill climber, I was using 32t for the lowest gear in the rear]. My cheap derailleur shifted up with no problem at all. It also has a 36t for the second gear. Now I don't need to shift down my front gears. Now I can pedal my heavy cycle truck without the motor if I need to.
thrid chain ring with guards.jpg
thrid chain ring with guards.jpg (193.08 KiB) Viewed 4742 times

Hubs for left side drives? viewtopic.php?f=28&t=103547

My gear ratios:
My external gear reduction is 14t on the motor to 44 then 40 to 32 = 2.5:1 ratio [or 2.67 with a 34t sprocket and 3.3:1 with the 42t] and 3.14:1 ratio with front shiftable gear just right for climbing my steepest hill (14t-44-32-32t on the rear) but with a 34t on the rear = 34:1 [using the 42t with the front gear being 32 = 4.13:1 witch is way too low of a gear ratio to use with the 6:1 planetary gears in the motor housing]
14t to 42t is only a 3:1 ratio without the extra sprockets of the crank set. This is a 9:1 total ratio with the 6:1 of the planetary gears in the motor.

unfortunately the new cassette is not shifting well on the last two or three sprockets. Is that the cheap derailleur?
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Aug 02 2020 4:00pm, edited 10 times in total.

User avatar
Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 407
Joined: Jun 20 2015 12:57pm

strobe lights

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Nov 16 2019 2:51pm

Is there a way to make these videos fit better so the whole thing can be seen?


User avatar
Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 407
Joined: Jun 20 2015 12:57pm

motorcycle tires

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Dec 13 2019 2:12pm

I originally put a 2 ply 19” moped tire on a 1.99” outside width motorcycle rim on this cycletruck because the frame rear end was made for a 24” tire. It fit well but then I discovered that no one makes narrow 19 inch tires any longer because they fit an old european moped only.

My front Shinko tire is the best deal of all; only about $28 and 4 plies and fits on a BMX rim witch cost me more than the motorcycle rim (4 ply 16” rim x 2.25”w 20.5” outside width [406mm BMX 1¼” or 1.4” wide motorcycle rim] ).

I had to ride home in the rain on a flat tire [only possible with a motor] one day and discovered that it was a small screw. So after fixing the beast I discovered that I had ruined the tires bead. So then I got to search for another tire that could fit. 17” x 2.25” [21.5” OD] comes close enough but I needed a new rim and another rebuild [spoke shortening]. But then of course it was incredibly hard to find a tire that size. The only alternative is to rebuild the rear end [see photo] so it will take a 16” x 2.75inch tire. Mean time I have to use my old 24” bicycle tire with a bulge {that blew out the second ride to town. I hate bicycle tires}. All this learning about building heavy duty cycle trucks is irritatingly fun and expensive.

I could find only two tires that could fit my frame [originally a 24” bicycle wheel]. I may need to build a custom rear end just so I can use a 70/90/17 [4 ply 2.76” wide x 2.48” tall 17” {rim} tire = 22” O.D.] Even a 2.5” wide tire would not fit in the frame.

I ordered a 2.25” wide x 17” Michelin city pro 3 ply with a 4th ply of some kind of filler to make it look more puncture resistant. And an aluminium 1.4” motorcycle rim with 36 spoke holes that cost me only $83 [including $13.5 shipping]. If you want to jump your bike get a 1.85” steel rim with a 3 inch 4 ply tire. Did I say I hate bicycle tires?

I had been looking at a wimpy “Pro-Wheel front rim” for only about $28 [bad reviews] but their robot would not sell it to me without knowing what bike make and model number. Don't waste your time with “motosport” they don't want your money if you are custom bike builder.

Warning!

Do Not use a whimpy Bicycle frame rear end like I did. The motor can pull the rear end over and you will have to have the frame straightened like I did. It is much more sensible to build a rear end out of rectangular tubing. Even if you must have it welded rigid to use a mid-drive kit with.

I am now going to have to build a bolt on rear end out of stainless steel rectangular tubes. Like work hardening 304 or 316 stainless steel. No painting needed.


The next MtGoat CycleTruck I build will be much easier if I incorporate every thing I have learned from building this one. The Michelin tire I got is so close to 2.50” wide even thought it is a 2.25” tire x 17” motorcycle rim [1.4 inch inside] actual measurement is 2.48” wide on 1.4” inside wide 17” rim [3 ply tire on the rear of my bike]. It has a 41psi maximum but it was so hard at 32psi I left it at that.

My front tire is a 4ply 2.25” not as wide [narrower rim] x 16” rim [406mm]. If you want a larger diameter tire [for even heavier weights] just use a 2.75” wide tire on a 16” x 1.8” [inside width] motorcycle rim. I want build a BMX rim onto my old 135mm wide hub for an emergency wheel.

I had the new wheel built by a professional bike shop, just because I could not find a 2.25”~ 3 or 4 ply motorcycle tire that fit the 19” rim. Mono ply belted bicycle tires are worthless for hauling cargo and other farm work. [On this bicycle at least. It is so heavy that it takes two strong men to lift it up into a pickup truck.] this 17 inch tire [21.5 od] will lower the rear by only 1.25” [from a 24” tire], but that is enough to affect the steering trail. Yet the effect is not bad enough to worry about. [Slightly wider turning radius not noticable]. It is easier to sit up straight now. If you want to see how long trail steering makes a wider turning radius watch the movie “easy rider”. The trail was so long he had to take up the whole width of the road to turn around.




mo info:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=103547

New wheel w velocity hub with Sapim spokes.JPG
New wheel w velocity hub with Sapim spokes.JPG (160.38 KiB) Viewed 3335 times
New wheel with cheap crapy aluminum rim 14g Sapim spokes.JPG
New wheel with cheap crapy aluminum rim 14g Sapim spokes.JPG (160.95 KiB) Viewed 3335 times
new tire 2.JPG
new tire 2.JPG (192.55 KiB) Viewed 2862 times
BFR rim.JPG
BFR rim.JPG (25.37 KiB) Viewed 2786 times
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Feb 14 2020 4:30pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 407
Joined: Jun 20 2015 12:57pm

Re: Mt.Goat Cycletruck / Cyclone3000 build

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Feb 14 2020 1:58pm

approximation of what I need to build.jpg
approximation of what I need to build.jpg (43.95 KiB) Viewed 2796 times


Rear rebuild for strong motor

By the time I had the wheel built I realized that the rear frame had pulled over to the right side [possibly due to the motor, but I think it may have been the welding process without an armature]. I had to move the rim [of an old wheel I used to use on this bike] over a half inch [or close to it] to make the tire fit in the frame. So I bought 304 stainless steel rectangular tubing and flat bar to replace the old chainstay tubes. The it looks like the shipping more than doubled after christmas. So buying small amounts of steel is not going to be so affordable anymore.

After having to get a ride home because of a flat bicycle tire one day, I discovered that the new wheel fits the frame even if it is slightly bent. I may pull a few stumps just to get this traktor warmed up, but I really do need more serious traction tires (with giant knobs) for the farm work.

For my next bike I will collect everything I need before spending money (as if that were possible), now that I know what I need. And I may save the rectangular tubing for my next two wheel truck. But if the weather warms up I can work on it this summer. Not that I actually want to work, I just enjoy building things.

Dropouts
Designing the dropouts was a beach.... first I ordered 1/4” flat bar. Then as I was working on it I discovered that I steel flat bar at 3/16” thick because the 10mm axle for my hub sticks out only 4.7mm = .185” (3/16th inch is .1875” ). I finally decided that it would be easier to buy dropouts and weld them onto the ends of the flat bars. But I could not find simple stainless steel dropouts, so I am going to use rustable steel and torch some oil onto them after welding, to avoid rust.

Attaching the rectangular tubes to the frame without welding?
I got a 5 -1/2” long 3/4” bolt with 5/8th” washers 1/4” thick (to file out a little so the 3/4” bolt fits snugly through). And a PVC tube to hold them apart. All this fits inside the bottom bracket tube. Starting from scratch would have been lot easier (I could have welded plates to the ends of the BB tube.)

If I needed to have it move up and down I would need some bearings that fit inside the bottom bracket tube snugly. My old recumbent bike has large bearings in it to hold the crank's spindle, but they are slightly loose and they are held apart by a metal tube. I can't use a crank spindle because there is no way to insert it like a bolt.

For holding the rectangular tube rear end I think it would need a solid round bar machined to fit the bearings with Acme threads on the ends. I don't think it would be possible to find a ready made bolt that would fit just right.

Steel
304 stainless steel does not have the tensile strength that 4130 Chromoly airplane steel has, but I did not want to take the extension to the next town over just to have it painted with “baked on {powder coat} enamel”. So I should have used .75” x 1.5” inch tubing rather than the 1”x 2” with the same .062” (1.58mm) walls because the 1 x 2” is heavier than I expected. One place has 3/4” by 2” rectangular tubing, and if you are building a light weight bike look for .058” wall. (1.5mm) .049” walls could be used but only with 4130 steel.

Laser cutting from magnetic steel; the cut surface will be hardened to the maximum possible. (AISI 4130 steel can be annealed at 843°C {1550°F} followed by air cooling at 482°C {900°F}. so it maybe air hardening, but I don't know how much) “It will brutalize drills and taps as they break through the thin hardened layer. 304 stainless is not magnetic. But it is still a little “work hardening” so I am going to need expensive drill bits.

I used 316 stainless for the HD rear rack I built a few years back. It was a bugger to drill because it is “work hardening” more than 304. I had to buy super strong drill bits and drill through without stopping. And 316 stainless is a little more corrosion proof, good for building an amphibian vehicle that will go in the salt water like a kinetic sculpture.

And using a 170mm wide hub {that has centered flanges for a stronger wheel~ https://endless-sphere.com/forums/view ... 2#p1513992}. Whatever kind of rim I buy, it is not going to be a cheap factory reject off eBay. Maybe I can find a used steel rim before the tires or get a 16” BFR BMX rim. I think I may have wasted the $80 for the rim (with shipping) [eBay is bad place buy stuff, unless you know exactly what you need]. And the $65 for building the wheel. But it should last a few years if I don't abuse it like curbs and potholes at speed.

One thing is for sure, I will never use a cheap aluminum rim for a tight tire like this Michelin CityPro again. I gouged the rim badly with my large Park tool tire irons. Moped tires are not quite so tight simply because they don't need to be, they are made for slow riding and only two ply is more flexible. However I did ruin the bead of the moped tire I had when I was trying to put it back onto the aluminum rim I had. So I can only think that a steel rim is the way to go for a heavy duty tire. Even if it costs $150 or more. I should have thought to look for a used steel rim.even if I need a larger motor to spin all that weight. Don't build a wimpy cycletruck.

And finally I am thinking that a 180mm rotor would help braking down a steep hill with the weight I haul. Maybe all I need are courser pads. And a pair of cable-pulled hydraulic brakes would be even better.

I killed my car 20 years ago and finally understand what it takes to haul as much stuff as most people do with their cars. I know someone that researched how much a car actually costs over the life of the vehicle. It was over a thousand dollars every month over the lifespan of the vehicle, 20 years? Maybe I should build a trike truck with a covered cab.

https://www.electricbike.com/truck-trike/
bike Rear Extention  for hand made Utiliy bike.png
bike Rear Extention for hand made Utiliy bike.png (57.32 KiB) Viewed 2307 times

User avatar
Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 407
Joined: Jun 20 2015 12:57pm

new free wheel for crank

Post by Hugh-Jassman » May 09 2020 5:42pm

These Heavy Duty crank freewheels are made of stainless steel, so I don't need to worry about the pawls rusting into an un-ratchetable mess which is what made the crank arm unscrew and seize the aluminum motor bracket.
http://sickbikeparts.com/front-freewheel-heavy-duty/


After receiving the new heavy duty crank freewheel from “Sick Bike Parts” I tried to remove the old crank arm by making a special washer to bolt the removal tool on the crank so I could mount it in my vice; but it looked like I could not loosen it up even after pounding on it with a mallet. So the next day I got only about 400ft down the road before the crankset seized up. I almost burnt out the controller getting the bike back up the hill. That is when I discovered that the crank arm had unthreaded and forced the crank set up against the motor support bracket. [see how the bolts ground off too much aluminum]

Then I took three hours to disassemble the crank set and replace the old crank freewheel. I have so many spacers between the multitude of chain wheels that I thought of glueing them in place which makes it so much easier to assemble. And the old Luna cycle's spacer did not fit; so if you are using one to hold a 24t chainring, forget it. Fortunately I had some 3mm thick Nylon spacers and use a 32t chainring for the lowest front gear.

Then after I got it all working again, I found that one of the planetary gears had worked loose, by spending another three hours on it. I took it out on the road and there was too much friction to go any place. At that point I was burned out and had to put off the job till the next day because I did not have a retainer-ring removal tool. It really pays to have all the tools you need before a brake down. I borrowed one from my landlord.

It took two cups of coffee to get started the next day, but I managed to disassemble the whole thing again and fix the loose gear. The old one had no signs of wear. The only thing that made it loose was a strip of shim material had come out of the bearing's pigeonhole chamber in the gear.
1 crank set rubed.JPG
1 crank set rubed.JPG (231.19 KiB) Viewed 1815 times
2 glue spacers in place.JPG
2 glue spacers in place.JPG (182.61 KiB) Viewed 1815 times
3 Lunas spacer does not fit.JPG
3 Lunas spacer does not fit.JPG (176.71 KiB) Viewed 1815 times
4 new freewheel.JPG
4 new freewheel.JPG (243.68 KiB) Viewed 1815 times
5 old crank arm on new crank freewheel shows space.JPG
5 old crank arm on new crank freewheel shows space.JPG (208.38 KiB) Viewed 1815 times

Installing a new motor
The old motor got sparks and smoke at high amps says, so I figured the controller still works.
I got a nice little torch to solder the phase wires.

After riging the new wires I got no movement when pressing the accelerator. My V2.4 CycleAnalyst shows amps, but they would fall off quickly when I heard a click inside the motor. Nice to know there is a fail safe device in there.

So I checked the wiring diagram and looked at the wires of the plugs I had to cut off, I could see that the yellow and green Hall Sensor wires had been switched at the factory. Once I switched my wires the way they had it every thing worked fine.

my  burnt coils.JPG
my burnt coils.JPG (180.55 KiB) Viewed 1612 times
my sensor wires.JPG
my sensor wires.JPG (129.54 KiB) Viewed 1612 times

Post Reply