Mt.Goat Cycletruck / Cyclone3000 build

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Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

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Mt.Goat Cycletruck / Cyclone3000 build

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Nov 16 2018 6:11pm

About eight years ago I needed a new utility bicycle [my old mountain bike was worn out] so I did about a years worth of research and measured design work. Then took a summer to file the tubes to fit for welding, and paid a professional welder to stick all the parts together. And took the frame over to the next town to have it powder-coated with baked-on enamel. Then last fall I put a motor on it because my knees are wiped out from arthritis.

Mounting bracket

To mount this motor so it would not wobble I just had to have fun making a new bracket. The tube between the flat plates is the thing that holds the whole assembly rigid.

3/16th inch thick 6061 aluminum angle bar and 1 x 3 inch rectangular tube, with flat bar; it all came together just right to stiffen up the bracket arms with no wobble at all. Both of the brackets sides, are held together with 4 inch long [5/16th inch] carriage-head bolts [these really need to be flat head bolts] because the hex heads of the regular bolts didn't give enough room for the chain.

Using a drill press was essential to use the hole-saw for the big hole. I decided it was easier to use a hack saw and files than to keep going to town to get more jig saw blades.

I used Red JB thread locker on the bolts. All bolts should be stainless steel in a wet climate. But maybe varnish could keep the heads of the flat headed bolts from rusting. And of course plenty of grease in the threads.

Idler assembly

After having to move the motor over a little to lineup with the chainring, I had to adjust the idler to keep it from grinding against the motor sprockets. And ended up moving the idler arm over a bit. Then later found that I should have used the short arm first before adding the longer arm.

Wire Connectors

I found waterproof aircraft connectors for the hall sensor wires. And used bullet connectors for the phase wire extensions up to the front box. And butt-splice connectors covered with friction tape, to connect pre-soldered XT90 connectors to the CycleAnalyst's shunt [between the battery and the controller].

Triple chain-wheel crank

My MTB crank spider is about 3mm [⅛”] between the smallest and middle chain-ring. So I found 11mm ID split-ring lock-washers that are 3.3-3.5mm thick, and had to be bend them back to flat [long handled plyers and vice] to bolt them down with round head 5mm x .80 pitch threads 25mm long. Nylon spacers are a different thicknes and can compress, so I had to use steel.
The space between the outer chainwheel [motor-chain driven] and the middle does not need a spacer if using luna's heavy duty “chainwheels” because the heavy duty 40t chainring will not flex like the computer engineered chainrings will.

However there is a problem of the chain getting stuck between the sprockets when it jumps off the sprockets. I may need something to prevent that. And the cariage bolts I used to hold the plates together gets in the way of putting the chain back on. So I am going to have to replace them with flat head bolts. Even if they are black rustable steel with varnish on them.

I think I could use regular chainring bolts if I could get them 16mm long, then the 5mm bolts would not be needed. But the chainring bolts interfier with the chain on the 32t chain-ring. The lock-nuts will not fit under the crank arm. But they do-not rub against anything on the bike side.

These “chainwheels” may not shift as easy as the computer engineered kind but they will last much longer. So I slow down and shift by pedal power only before I start climbing our 16% grade hills drawing about 1400watts from the battery pack.

The sprocket tips are 5mm apart [disc to disc]. But the spacers are 3 to 3.5mm thick. Sence the teeth tips are now 5mm apart, maybe the spacers need to be 1.5mm for the sprocket tips to be 3mm apart.

Gear ratios[23” moped tire on 19” motorcycle rim]
These are the gears I use most for hauling a total combined weight of 400-450lbs with a 52 volt battery. I should have bought a 60v pack with 32Ah because I am averaging 43Ah per mile without pedaling. And a larger battery would last longer.

I like using only two gears because shifting the rear gears makes the chain jerk against the sprockets, even if I let go of the throttle and spin the crank to shift before accellerating again.

14T sprocket on the rear gives me a mid gear of 6.59:1 for over all crusing. Then if I shift down to the 32t chainwheel on the crank I get a low gear of 8.25:1....I should get luna's 24t chainwheel for a lower gear of 11:1.....it looks to me like I better not get rid of my cassette, I may need to shift the rear gears once in a while.

If I wanted a single gear ratio I would need a 44t sprocket on the rear with the 14 on the motor. For the 8.25:1 or 32t sprocket for the 11:1 that I would get from using a 24t chianwheel on the crank inplace of the 32. unless my math is all wrong.

Would the 72volt difference make up for the lack of a higher gear from 6.6:1 to the 11:1? That would be a lot of extra watts from the battery.

The lowest Mt.Goat grany gear is 20:1 with the 32 on the crank and the 34 on the cassette. That is probably enough to haul 600lbs up a 16% grade, but I have not been able to test the limits because my battery is too small to achive maximum wattage and still get home.

Exploration of possibilities:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/view ... =1&t=94449
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=99337
Attachments
MtGoat Cycletruck.JPG
birth of cycletruck.jpg
birth of cycletruck.jpg (92.91 KiB) Viewed 800 times
steer tube extention jig.jpg
steer tube extention jig.jpg (82.1 KiB) Viewed 800 times
front rack.jpg
front rack.jpg (40.86 KiB) Viewed 800 times
Bracket mounting.JPG
Breacket mounting bottom view.JPG
Breacket mounting bottom view.JPG (277 KiB) Viewed 800 times
new idler assembly finnished.jpg
new idler assembly finnished.jpg (207.47 KiB) Viewed 800 times
idler assembly.jpg
luna's HD chainwheels.JPG
connectors.JPG
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Apr 10 2019 12:45pm, edited 13 times in total.

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Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

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Better controller with three seperate speed ranges?

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Nov 17 2018 2:52pm

I never could tell the difference with this three speed switch, but I never push the limits....

Image
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Apr 10 2019 12:30pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

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Tripple crank set for Cyclone3000

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Nov 17 2018 2:53pm

My MTB crank spider is about 3mm [⅛”] between the smallest and middle chain-ring. So I found 11mm ID split-ring lock-washers that are 3.3-3.5mm thick had to be bent them back to flat [long handled plyers and vice] to bolt them down with round head 5mm x .80 pitch threads 25mm long. Nylon spacers are a different thicknes and can compress, so I had to use steel spacers.

The space between the outer chainwheel [motor sprocket driven] and the middle does not need a spacer if using luna's heavy duty “chainwheels” because the heavy duty 40t chainring will not flex like the computer engineered chainrings will.

I think I could use regular chainring bolts if I could get them 16mm long, then the 5mm bolts would not be needed. But the chainring bolts interfier with the chain on the 32t chainwheel.

The image on luna's website showing a tripple crank, shows the round heads on the wrong side. The lock-nuts will not fit under the crank arm. But they do-not rub against anything on the bike side.

These “chainwheels” don't shift as easy as the computer engineered kind but they will last much longer. So I slow down and shift before I start climbing our 16% grade hills drawing about 1400watts from the battery pack.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =1&t=94449
Attachments
tripple crank.JPG
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Apr 10 2019 12:40pm, edited 10 times in total.

parjacpar   1 µW

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Re: Mt.Goat Cycletruck / Cyclone3000 build

Post by parjacpar » Nov 21 2018 9:25pm

Thanks for the great read as really enjoyed reading it

I have no experience with this so cant help you but do like the mountain bracket as people have mentioned about the bracket motor comes with flexes and twists

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Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

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Cyclone 3000 idler arm assembly

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Jan 03 2019 3:52pm

I have been trying several ways to assemble the idler arms , and discovered that the short arm should have been put on first. I may have gotten a kit that was rejected, what with all the things wrong with it. Like the left side mounting braket did not fit at all. So I built one that is much better it holds the motor perfectly still, no wobble at all.
Attachments
cyclone tensioner.jpg
cyclone tensioner.jpg (23.19 KiB) Viewed 795 times
idler assembly short arm first.jpg
idler assembly short arm first.jpg (29.75 KiB) Viewed 795 times
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Apr 10 2019 12:35pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

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mileage

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Jan 05 2019 3:40pm

Watt-hours needed for a Cycletruck

My cycle-truck is using about 43 watt-hours per mile average without climbing the really steep hills with heavy cargo. I calculated at 30Wh per mile needed and ended up with a 13.5Ah battery pack that is too small, even at very slow speeds.

I put a higher gear on my Cyclone-3000 kit for driving down a 3% grade into town, but I don't think that the gears are going to make much difference.

I do not pedal because my knees have too much arthritis, but some-one should have told about what it is like when hauling cargo [400-450lb total combined weight] in the pacific NW.

One really steep hill was drawing at least 1400watts from the battery. Most of the hills can be done at around 1000w if slow moving at a slow pedaling speed.

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Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

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Re: Mt.Goat Cycletruck / Cyclone3000 build

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Apr 10 2019 1:53pm

Hauling just another 50lbs the mileage use went up to 50Wh per mile. So I am going to build a 32Ah or larger battery pack 60v or 72v. But it may take a year or longer.

I had a lot of trouble keeping the chain on the front sprockets when shifting, so I got LunaCycle's steel chainwheel spacers they are 2.5mm thick and 77mm wide. Harris cyclery said that is the distance between most sprocket tips, so on these chainwheels they will be a little wider. My 8 speed chain has a pin liength of 7.3mm, so it may be impossable for the chain to fall between the chainwheels and get stuck there. I just hope it does not jump off the sprockets easier.

https://lunacycle.com/cyclone-chainwhee ... -sprocket/

https://lunacycle.com/cyclone-replacement-chainwheel/

Letting off the accellerator and shifting by pedaling only is essential. And also adjusting the front deraileur right: https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-he ... adjustment

And then I found some 4”x 5/16th” flat headed stainless steel bolts to hold the stabilizer tube between the bracket plates. Carriage bolt heads were not low enough for a tripple crank [to put the chain back on the sprockets after falling off]. I had to brake the chain open more than once, just to get it back on.

The spacers I made are only about ¾ of a milimeter thicker than Luna's spacer discs. They are almost too thin for an 8 speed chain, but the even with my home made spacers I had to turn the sprockets facing outwards for there to be room for the chain. It ooks like one of the chainwheels is slightly warped. So I still do not know just exactly how far apart the sprockets should be.
Attachments
tripple chainwheels with spacers.JPG
tripple chainwheels with spacers.JPG (215.27 KiB) Viewed 695 times
tripple chainwheels sprockets out.JPG
tripple chainwheels spacing.JPG
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Apr 22 2019 1:02pm, edited 3 times in total.

markz   100 GW

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Re: Mt.Goat Cycletruck / Cyclone3000 build

Post by markz » Apr 11 2019 4:13pm

You know, you won't be legal with that Cyclone 3kw ya know :wink: may have to go 250W because some gov't knob-head says so :wink:

Nevermind the sarcasm

The C3kw idler is a cheap unit, lots of real idlers available from bicycle stores. I remember my first ride, the chain kept slipping off the teeth, I never rode it for long because it made too much noise and ppl could hear me coming up. Which is good in a way right, but not some unknown sound of gears in a motor, I have a loose front mud guard that makes just enough noise for ppl to hear me. I still got the c3kw, but the mistake I made was I did not use anti-seize on the bb so when I took it off, I had to collapse the male threaded part with a pipe wrench just to take it out.

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Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

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power limitations

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Apr 20 2019 1:19pm

new idler wheel.JPG
new indexed thumb shifter.JPG
If they harrass me about the power it takes to climb our hills, I will sew them. I do have the speed controlled with my CycleAnalyst.

When I come home from the food bank I feel like I am hauling 500lbs total combined weight. And my MtGoat cycletruck feels a bit too top heavy. So I would realy like to build a cycletruck with a low center of gravity cargo bed and 2.5-3inch 4ply motorcycle tires on 16inch rims. I have also had problems with my tiny trailer shaking my bicycle side to side when it was over loaded too much to the rear of the small wheel.

I just want to know how much power my motor is producing. When accellerating hard to start a steep climb, or cross a street that has a rise in the middle, my CycleAnalyst shows that the controller is pulling a little over 1800watts for a few moments then settles back to about 1400watts. And our state alolws about 900 to 1000watts output from the motor.

000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

More trouble with the crankset [the idler was not in the right place] led me to removing the plastic pant guard, but I had to disassemble the whole damn thing to get to the last two screws holding it on. And then I lost another one of the chainring bolts. Fortunately I had an old crank to take parts off of. But I still need longer ones for extra parts. I also discovered that the quick link for the short chain from the motor must have the open end facing the back of the bike. So when I turned the chain around without redirecting the link, it came off while testing the operation.

My next bike will use a 5 to 1 planetary geared hub motor; and re-lube it often. As well as building a much larger battery. Then I can forget the chain/sprocket misery.

Crank freewheel bearing. I forgot to tighten the 5mm bolts [that hold the two extra chain wheels] to the freewheel flange, so the whole assembly ran a bit wobbly. But there is still some wobble from the cheap flange free wheel, so I need to spend $90 to $120 bucks for a really good one from 'Sick Bike parts.

Triple crank chain clearance. I am discovering that no one makes the kind of nuts I need for the crank-set. I am going to have to turn the 5mm bolts around and put nuts on the outside of the crank set. Then grind them down until the crank arms can pass over them. And use super glue to hold them inplace after they are jammed against the threads in the 44t sprocket. And having jam nuts on both sides of the sprocket may help.

Making the triple cranks a a series of experiments. I finally discovered that there is 4.77mm clearance under the cranks arms, so that the 4.29mm lock nuts will fit when I turn the 5mm bolts around so they are pointing outwards. That will give me more room on the bike side of the triple crank for putting the chain back on when it falls off the smaller chainwheel [Luna had their triple crank right after all]. I will also try to put locknuts on the bike side of the large 44t chainwheel to make sure nothing works loose.


Cheap derailleurs. I could not put a new gear cable on the new indexed thumb shifter I got, because the threads are stripped out on the device that hold the cable. The only carriage bolts I could find for the derailleur were 3/16th - 24tpi but the idiot hardware store had no such nuts for them. I would use rounded head bolts, but there is no way to hold the bolts while adjusting the cable tension and crank down on the nut at the same time. I think that all derailleurs have cheap crappy parts made of soft metals that allow the threads to strip out. So I should just find a used derailleur for spare parts.

Idler wheels. I got a pair of aluminum Sealed Bearing Jockey Wheels for only $10. But I may need to file the sides of the teeth to make them fit the chain better. These do not help the chain stay on the sprockets because it was the other chain that was jumping off. But I should get some red ones for the rear derailleur, and never put dirty greasy oil on the chain.


And now I am thinking about what kind of battery to build
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=99952
I finally understand the reason to buy a programmable controller:
My controller for my Cyclone3000 is set to cut off too high:
30% of 58.8v = 17.64v but my controller cuts off at about 39v which is 66.326% of 58.8v
yet 39v is 30.7% of 78.8v



If the bike weight is under 300 pounds, the 10 turn motor is reasonably efficient up hills and does not melt. Your mid drive motor gets warm too I'm sure. But it can gear down and run 5 mph. 5 mph up a hill overloaded, will melt the geared hub motor. Reasonably loaded, the geared motor will climb the hills at 12-15 mph, and run pretty efficient.

Geared hubs have gears that are weaker than a typical bicycle chain, so it is better to use a BB drive then, and have the benefit of a gear set that can be shifted.

12 turn Hub-motor vs Mid-drive for hill climbing ??

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=98803&p=1466686#p1467113
Last edited by Hugh-Jassman on Sep 07 2019 12:35pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hugh-Jassman   1 kW

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Re: Mt.Goat Cycletruck / Cyclone3000 build

Post by Hugh-Jassman » Aug 23 2019 1:48pm

thinking about improvements for my next cycletruck
ergonomic cycletruck improved.png
ergonomic cycletruck improved.png (473.41 KiB) Viewed 56 times
ergonomic crank forward placement.png
ergonomic crank forward placement.png (103.46 KiB) Viewed 56 times

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