Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.

Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Postby smeagol222 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:30 pm

I looked into it and there didn't seem to be. We will see how would you suggest I test when I get it together

Battery blocs post viewtopic.php?t=76205
First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a viewtopic.php?f=12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a viewtopic.php?f=10&t=85164
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Postby macribs » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:44 pm

Just to be sure I would take this to the battery section of the forum and ask around there, I am sure some EE or some other skilled ones will be able to tell you both if steel is usable for a performance pack and how to measure them steel plates and then do a similar test with copper and nickel cut in similar size that way you will know what will be the best option for best performance and the least amount of wasted heat. The battery blocks by itself are clever, and if space is no issue I really like the idea of a repairable battery that can be fixed without spot welding and the use of a dremel.
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Postby smeagol222 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:19 am

Shawn says this about the conductive properties of the plates. He uses
"galvanized 1010 steel. The steel is 12% as conductive as copper. The zinc coating is 27% as conductive as copper. Compared to spot welding? You need resistance to weld. Solid nickel strips are 22% as conductive as copper. And the battery builder may have used nickel plated steel- it's the most common connector. And the strips are small compared to BatteryBlocs connectors. The larger the connector the less resistance. And the larger the connection area the less resistance. That's why BatteryBlocs' connectors are massive and the tops are open to allow massive contact area. I'm not saying one way is better than another, I do both in my shop depending on the job. I spot weld when I have to fit the cells into a small preexisting case. But when I am just building a battery, I go for the modularity and solidness of BatteryBlocs."

viewtopic.php?p=1151145#p1151145

The magnets " no measurable resistance on my ohm meter. They are nickel plated neodymium."
viewtopic.php?p=1151064#p1151064

When I ordered I got extra "parallel" plates (plates used to connect each 10P group together in 5S. So since I'm using double what he normally sells as a kit I'm hoping I don't have any heat issues due to resistance of the metal plates. My build isn't SUPER high power compared to some of the crazy builds on ES, its pretty moderate. I have a temperature sensor which I might just plant somewhere in on of the 5S stacks to keep track of any heat.
Last edited by smeagol222 on Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a viewtopic.php?f=12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a viewtopic.php?f=10&t=85164
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Postby macribs » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:36 am

I am sure it will work, just thinking it might work better with copper. In some of the crazy builds done here at ES they have used solid copper bus bar as series connection to carry enough current without heat and losses. And as prone as copper is to corrosion I would think if steel was a good choice they might have used steel bars as bus bars to avoid corrosion. Another downside of steel is that the heat conduct properties of steel is lower then copper, so if it should make the pack, or cells hot maybe the steel would slow down the cooling process? A scooter compared to a bike will be a little more husky and got more mass to carry around, and when going flat out from red lights to keep up with traffic that current will flow rapidly from the battery. I imagine a scooter will get more wide open throttle - full stop - wide open throttle then a regular e-bike because a scooter will primarily be ridden in traffic on smooth surface, where an e-bike might be ridden in a bike lane, among pedestrians and places where lower speed are mandatory. Just thinking out loud here as I am about to jump into the scooter conversion myself, and I really liked the idea of the battery blocks, just not sure about the steel sheets.

Anyway the super cool thing with a battery build with battery blocks is that it can all be taken apart if needed. If you should find losses are too big, or heat should be an issue it should be easy to spend a sunday afternoon swapping steel for copper or nickel plates.
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Postby smeagol222 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:51 am

All good points I appreciate your input macribs! This is all new ground so hopefully my build will be of help to others. Even testing the Batteryblocs for that 12v battery it was a breeze, since I messed up with the grouping of mAh capacities- I easily de-constructed re-arranged and put back together in less than 20min.

I'm excited to see how this larger packs will turn out since I got my LG MJ1's yesterday!
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First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a viewtopic.php?f=12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a viewtopic.php?f=10&t=85164
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Postby smeagol222 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:26 pm

I'm a bit upset- I started putting my battery blocs together and I guess I got a few defect 3d printed modules. When I put the 16 cell one together it was fine, these 10P ones a lot of them don't fit the cells correctly. I thought it was just a "tight fit" and until the plastic holder scratched off some of outer plastic of my nice shiny new LG cell :evil: :twisted: :shock: Some of them also haven't been printed properly. Its unfortunate there hasn't been any kind of quality checking.

Anyways I've left a message with Shawn hopefully it can be resolved. I've managed to put together ten 10P packs so far, the ones in the cardboard box are defects- broken or dont fit
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Last edited by smeagol222 on Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:57 am, edited 2 times in total. View post history.
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Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a viewtopic.php?f=10&t=85164
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Postby macribs » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:37 pm

Hmm that does not look promising. Too bad quality control is lacking, hopefully you get replacement parts.
I think I will look for other solutions for a battery build. Still not given up on the idea of solder less pack, so I will keep searching.

For now lets hope this a an isolated incident and that the man behind the battery blocks resolve the issues for future customer. Will keep an eye on this thread crossing my fingers this get fixed and you have no other problems assembly the pack.
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Postby EddySPalm » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:39 am

Sorry that my first post is such a negative one, but I've been watching those Battery Blocs for a while and I (from being a mechanical engineers' point of view) cannot believe that someone can allow himself to sell such *beep* to people, at least without letting them know beforehand that these are printed in a (clearly cheap/poorly set up) FDM 3D printer.

You should be waaay past the point of having these molded either by injection molding or silicone mold before you start up a website and sell your stuff like it's a serial produced part.
What strikes me just as much is the simplicity of the blocs, and how cheap a mold would be to make. One wouldn't even have to make a separate mold for each bloc, if a little creativity was used...

Sorry for the rant. I was just following your thread so eagerly until I saw that you were gonna use those blocs :) I'll be constructive from now on.
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Postby smeagol222 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:54 am

Thats okay- I heard back from Shawn and he's going to send me replacements. About the injection moulds - would have been a lot better but apparently they are too costly.
viewtopic.php?p=1151078#p1151078

Shawn will replace defects he says. So far I've got 2 out of 4 stacks together! (2 groups of 5S10P) Still waiting on my XT150 6mm connectors before I'll actually be able to use them after an ebay item location mixup (auction said USPS from USA, but actually coming from china :roll: )

But in the meantime I can cut the 4" fence post tubing to size and connect the balance leads and 10 awg charge cables with XT60's
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Last edited by smeagol222 on Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a viewtopic.php?f=12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a viewtopic.php?f=10&t=85164
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Postby smeagol222 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:06 am

I got my 6mm XT150's only needed 5pars total to connect each of the 5S stacks in series (spare ones can be backup)
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Going to save the SB120a for another higher powered future project. No point changing the plug on the lifepo4 battery. The anderson 50a connector should be fine.

Just waiting on replacement battery blocs now. Then finally I think I'll have everything I need to complete this build (hopefully)
First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a viewtopic.php?f=12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a viewtopic.php?f=10&t=85164
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Postby smeagol222 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:41 pm

Tired of waiting for the new BatteryBlocs so I started making the plastic casing. Cut the plastic pipes, battery blocs fit perfectly- such good protection for them. So the red caps will be nuts and washers on the end. Then an extra nut at the end before the plastic lid to keep them all together.

I had this idea of using a $8 cutting board as the lid, but found out it was just crappy fiber-board covered in plastic sheet. Since I have extra room at the top I think it would be cool to get some clear plexi-glass then I can see the CellLogs inside. I'll also mount some switches to turn them on and off. I got this metal handle I can bolt on also.

Got a bunch of little warning indicator lights, these will work great as dashboard visual indicators hopefully I'm able to attach to the CellLog alarm-out wires

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First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a viewtopic.php?f=12&t=86228
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Postby marcexec » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:33 pm

IKEA Legitim cutting board. Cheap and cheerful solid hobbyist plate. :lol:
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Postby smeagol222 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:30 am

That cutting board seems like the best way to get HDPE. I think I might go with clear plexiglass this time, when I wont have to figure out how to mount the CellLogs to the outside of the top lid. All I'll have on top is the handle and 4 switches and I'll be able to see the CellLogs inside

I finally got the BatteryBlocs replacements. This 3D print run seems to be much more solid- I can even tell the red plastic colour has changed and the "DPI" seems to be 'thicker' if that makes sense. Really appreciate Shawn sending these replacements. I completely love this idea, they go together so easily, I will keep this updated with performance metrics I get from my CA.

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Last edited by smeagol222 on Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a viewtopic.php?f=12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a viewtopic.php?f=10&t=85164
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Postby marcexec » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:15 am

smeagol222 wrote:That cutting board seems like the best way to get acrylic. [...]


Actually, it's HDPE, to be precise.
A motorcyclist is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to.
My Suzuki RF400 build: now with Enertrac MHM602 and 6kWh AESC modules protected by a Zephyr BMS
Renault Equation modded to 36V14Ah LA & 1kW controller.
Master of Electric Motor Selection: "Adopt a motor" (PM me if you have trouble editing)
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Postby smeagol222 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:48 am

So I put together the first 18v pack- being veeery careful with my impact drill on those nylon bolts- only really to get them most of the way then finger tighten. Shawn supplied me double the metal plates for series connections, since there is a fair bit of current going through. I put the fat terminals on then ends ready for the 6awg. It should work out ok since there are gaps for wires to run along the side and up. I will have to angle the negative terminal at the bottom so when it stands vertically it doesn't damage it. Maybe ill put them on one of the 2 inner bolts- we'll see for a better angle.

I tells ya once all the bolts are together and the threaded rods are through this thing feels SOLID (I screwed up cutting these rods too short having forgot about the red end caps, gap at the top and plexiglass lid so they're for testing now). After it goes into the plastic pipe its going to be next to indestructible haha. It does add quite a bit of weight but I'm willing to take that considering how repairable and re-buildable this will be. There's also a nice bit of gappage between the cells for air flow.

Now working on putting the little balance leads onto the smaller terminals for the CellLog and additional JST for balancing. I'm so happy this is starting to come together, next big thing is the main circuit and taking that friggen tubeless tire of the old hub wheel. Got some car tire leavers and rim protectors coming. Put it on a 5 gallon bucket and make sure I have a beer in hand to ease the frustration heh. :D

XT60s will be for charging (72v bulk) and main terminals for each block balancing (will probably have to create some kind of un-plugable parallel harness.

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First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a viewtopic.php?f=12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a viewtopic.php?f=10&t=85164
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Re: Ebike scooter project QS 4kw V3 72v, Kelly KEB72601

Postby smeagol222 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:04 am

I got the plexiglass lid (12x12" 9mm thick was only $12CAD but I had to ride 40km to get it hahha) it fit inside the saddle bag like a glove! - it is clear, the blue is just the protective plastic I haven't peeled off yet
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Hammer crimp worked great- I soldered also - seems like a really strong connection. I used double heat shrink in some places, will probably also heatshrink over the shaved insulation parts just in case any flex makes a wire exposed. I ran the negative terminal the 'long way' since I wasn't comfortable it being so close to the pos of the 2nd last cell (paranoid about a short I guess)
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Next was wiring up the 18v packs and installing the connectors. Geez putting 6awg onto 6mm xt150 connectors was a pain the the ass. I had to use dremel to shave down some of the insulation to put the insulated connector on, then take a couple of the wire cores out to fit inside bullet cup with solder. Installing two 5S JST connectors (one for cell log under plexiglass, other lives outside lid with for balance charging along with the xt60 charge and xt150 discharge connector).
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Finally got all the XT150 connectors done, completely finished one pack. I added a charge lead with xt60 connector and 10awg. Had to cut down the nylon bolts a bit so it would fit into the 4" fence post tube. Also made all the bolts the same way around.
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Setup the xt60's for parallel harness (ready for parallel 5S 21v balance charging). I balanced charged 1 pack from 3.5v to 4.2v at only 2amps- and it took like a 1.5 days! I'm glad I have my lifepo4 20ah pack to use when this pack needs balancing. It showed about 20ah for 3500mah cells which seemed about right considering the cells were already partially charged.
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Will do a full balance when they're all together- I wonder what amps I could charge at when 'fast charging'. BatteryBro says fast charging is supported, but doesn't mention what amps.
https://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-whol ... ew-3500mah

According to the spec sheet normal charging is 0.2C = 1.7A, and max charger rate 1C = 3.4A... :roll: I guess I will probably just do it at 2amps to be safe.
https://www.nkon.nl/sk/k/Specification% ... 8.2014.pdf
This guy is charging is 52v pack at 6amps?
Last edited by smeagol222 on Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
First project small E-scooter upgrade 1.5kw/3kw 48v 45a viewtopic.php?f=12&t=86228
Current project medium E-scooter upgrade 4kw/7kw 72v 90a viewtopic.php?f=10&t=85164
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