Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.
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jelev_k   1 mW

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Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by jelev_k » Feb 26 2019 2:50pm

Hello, everyone.
Thanks for the interesting forum. I read it regularly :) .
I've decided to upgrade the battery of the Jonway MSG-D 1000 W electric scooter. I need your opinion, and any ideas are welcome.

The batteries are SLA 5 x 12 volts = 60 V. I’m thinking to replace them with one of the following options
1. 17S12P 18650 LI ion Samsung 29E, 2900 mAh, 8 A max from EU store;
2. 17S14P 18650 LI ion some Chinese mark Lava, 2200 mAh, 4,5 A max from local store. I tested a sample. Draw 1,5A for 1,5 Hours from 4,2 to 3,2 V, 2 amps for 40 min;
3. 20 sell soft bag lifepo4 20 or 30 ah battery 3.2v high discharge battery from Alliexpress. 60 A continues. The seller says they are delivering to Europe, but it's probably not going to be easy.

BMS – on the way smart BMS from ICGOGOGO.

Currently the range is about 30 - 40 km daily. After 3500 km it is closer to 30 km. Controller is Chinese 35A, cut off 52 V. The continuous current consumption is about 20A on flat ground with no hills or climbing. The wattmeter measures 600 to 1000 Wh for daily trip – to go to work and back. At first time I will not change the controller, possibly will increase current to 45 amps if It be able with more shunts. I need also for more speed, because the max at the moment is 55 km/H. Not enough for main streets in our city, and slight up to 75 km/h :mrgreen: will be perfect … and if it is possible for the new battery pack to provide and maintain more speed - it is welcome.
My main aim is to increase the range with a single charge up to 60 km or more and at the same time the new battery should have a maximum number of cycles. Will use everyday from April to October, eventually in the weekends the battery will have a rest ... :D

Will the specified configuration be enough to meet my goals and at the same time leave enough energy to keep the battery from overloading?
Are the LiFePo4 better option than 18650 LiIon?

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Dui, ni shuo de dui   1 kW

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Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by Dui, ni shuo de dui » Feb 27 2019 2:30am

Option 1 and option 3 seem both ok.
With Li-ion you have a lighter and potentially better battery, but they are a bit more dangerous to manipulate, you need to make sure to have a reliable monitoring and they don't last as long as the lifepo4, not mentioning the fact that they lose their capacity at a higher rate so you need more of them if you account for that. The main drawbacks of lifepo4 batteries is that they are heavier and bulkier.
Personnally I'd go with lifepo4 because they are tougher and have a longer lifespan, but both are totally acceptable so that's a matter of what you prefer. Since you don't plan on building a rocket, I guess that would be the smart choice.
Also, building a pack with pouch cells is generally easier, but you need to be lucky enough to have a frame who allows you to optimize the space.

Anyway, your plan sound pretty much well thought already.

As for speed, the easy way to go faster is to higher the voltage. If you want to reach 75-80kmh then you should probably consider going to 72V.
This might imply to change your controller, DC/DC converter and possibly the dashboard though, depending of what they can take. You should check that first.
:bolt: :bolt: My electric Ninja 250 clone: 16 000W 72V40Ah A123 cells : :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=90032

:bolt: :bolt: My electric Scooter: 11 000W 72V 50Ah LiFePO4 cells: :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=75912

jelev_k   1 mW

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Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by jelev_k » Feb 28 2019 3:19pm

Thanks for the reply!
Initially, my research has shown that LiFePo4 batteries are the better choice. Then, reading this forum, I get the impression that 18650 Li ion type is more popular.

I'll probably order something like that - soft bag single sell x 20 ps. There Is plenty of room after I remove 5 x SLA 12V
Battery Type: Lifepo4
Nominal Capacity: 30Ah
Nominal Voltage: 3.2v
Battery Dimension: 9*160*240mm
Battery Weight: About 652g
Internal Resistance: less than 4 mohms
Cycle life: More than 2500 times, DOD at 80%
Input Charging Voltage 3.65v/cell
Input Charging Current Standard 10A, fast 30A
Continuous Discharging Current 60Amps
Max pulse Current Discharge 100Amps pulse
Discharge cut-off Voltage 2.30v/cell
Charging Temperature: 0~45Centigrade
Discharging temperature: -20~60Centigrade
Storage temperature: -20~45Centigrade

I already have a Li-ion charger for 17 cells. The voltage is 17x4,2 = 71,40 V.
Do you think it is good to use for 20 cells of LiFePo4? It will charge up to 3.57 V per sell.

jelev_k   1 mW

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Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by jelev_k » May 08 2019 2:34pm

some progress.
I'm thinking of installing foam between the cells. Do I need it?


Image
Last edited by jelev_k on May 08 2019 2:56pm, edited 1 time in total.

jelev_k   1 mW

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Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by jelev_k » May 08 2019 2:53pm

I have one more question.
I decided to make a 72 volt system (24 cells Lifepo4), but my motor has not hall sensors. Can I use these controllers for example - they have a sensor input.

KUNRAY BLDC 42V - 72V 3000W Brushless Motor Speed Controller 80A 24Mosfet 120Degree Phase With Sensor Hall For Electric Bike A13
https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?sp ... 2862777074

or this one

Kelly Sinewave Controller KLS7212S 24V-72V 120A SINUSOIDAL Controller for 1000-1500W Hub Motor
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Kelly-S ... f6d28e94c6


Will the two controllers work well without being connected to the sensors? Or I have to install the sensors on the hub motor.

These are the current 1000W motor and controller
Image

Image

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Dui, ni shuo de dui   1 kW

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Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by Dui, ni shuo de dui » May 08 2019 9:31pm

jelev_k wrote:
May 08 2019 2:34pm
some progress.
I'm thinking of installing foam between the cells. Do I need it?
I would not. It would make the battery bigger, limit the thermal transferts and also allow the cells to expand and puff, which is something you don't want them to do.
What I've seen on most pouch packs I've opened was that they were using some thin double sided tape to keep the cells together
:bolt: :bolt: My electric Ninja 250 clone: 16 000W 72V40Ah A123 cells : :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=90032

:bolt: :bolt: My electric Scooter: 11 000W 72V 50Ah LiFePO4 cells: :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=75912

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Dui, ni shuo de dui   1 kW

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Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by Dui, ni shuo de dui » May 08 2019 9:33pm

jelev_k wrote:
May 08 2019 2:53pm
I have one more question.
I decided to make a 72 volt system (24 cells Lifepo4), but my motor has not hall sensors.
That's weird, I haven't seen any of those motors not having sensors. Are you really sure? Can you check again if they are not coming out somewhere from the motor axle?

If your motor really doesn't have those it might make things complicated.
:bolt: :bolt: My electric Ninja 250 clone: 16 000W 72V40Ah A123 cells : :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=90032

:bolt: :bolt: My electric Scooter: 11 000W 72V 50Ah LiFePO4 cells: :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=75912

jelev_k   1 mW

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Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by jelev_k » May 09 2019 1:36am

I have no idea too.
Only power cables come out of the motor.
When I have time I will remove the motor and I will check if there are sensors inside or not and can they be mounted easily.
... pouch packs I've opened was that they were using some thin double sided tape to keep the cells together …
All my hobby LIPO batteries have a double sided tape between the cells, but the tape itself is 1 mm with foam inside. That's why I've decided to put sheets of foam. But the sheets really take up about 4 centimeters of space, which is already a problem with the size of the battery.

jelev_k   1 mW

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Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by jelev_k » May 16 2019 2:47am

… That's weird, I haven't seen any of those motors not having sensors. Are you really sure? Can you check again …
I've disassembled the scooter, and Yes, there is a cable that looks like a 4-wire cable for hall sensors.
I've ordered Kelly Sinewave Controller KLS.

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eee291   10 kW

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Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by eee291 » May 16 2019 3:45am

Motors with Hall sensors should have 5 thin wires come from the axle not 4.

Also I wouldn't install any kind of foam between the cells, maybe tape both sides of the cells to create a double layer of tape between the cells or use some plastic sheets. On my Lg Chem battery the pouch cells are separated with just a sheet of aluminium, even having bare cells is better than foam.
Once, I killed a 12V (4x Lifepo4) battery by putting foam in between each cell, after just 2 cycles!

jelev_k   1 mW

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Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by jelev_k » May 31 2019 7:11am

The controller arrived - KLS7230S 24V-72V 300A SINUSOIDAL.
I would like to ask your for comment on the regen function.
I'm building a 24 cell battery pack Lifepo4 mainly for increasing max speed, but KELLY advised me the following:
"22 or 23 cells will be better for the controller.It can leave margin for the regen"

I would also like to ask - the scooter does not have a main contactor originally. Is it necessary to use a contactor, or will the controller work well without a main contactor?

Image

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eee291   10 kW

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Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by eee291 » May 31 2019 7:50am

I've never used a contactor on any Controller before, you'll be fine without one.

The Kelly Controller can do regen close to 90V. So if your Battery is fully charged 24x3.65V=87.6V your regen will cut out because the Controller will have reached the high voltage cut-off.
In my experience a 20S lipo on my scooter would reach the high voltage cut-off during regen when the Battery was charged to 83V.
It wasn't the BMS that would cutout but the Controller itself.

Ways to solve this:
Don't soley rely on regen when the Battery is full.
Don't fully charge your Battery, maybe only up to about ~82V
Use less Cells, 22S would probably be ideal for regen right off the bat.
But I wouldn't worry too much unless you live on a mountain (like me :wink: ). If you live in a flat area you will not generate a lot of power and by the time you use it the battery will already have dropped a few volts.

So, regen on a full battery is pretty much not gonna work well anyways since you would be slightly overcharging it which isn't good for longevity.

jelev_k   1 mW

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Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by jelev_k » Oct 25 2019 8:15am

Thanks for the help. I have completed the battery replacement and am very happy with the result.
Finally the cells are 22 x 3.2 = 70,4 V nominal
The speed on flat area has increased from 55 to 65 km / h, new range is 60 + km. The speed of 65 km / h is enough for me. I can now drive on the city main roads without a problem. I will test with 24 cells, as I originally intended. The range might be larger, but this one does the job for me. I hope the capacity of the battery does not fall in one season, because under 40 km for one charge is not enough for my daily trips.
There is room for a helmet under the seat, which was important for me.
The new battery pack is removable using XT150 connectors (from HobbyKing).


I want to share some notes about the upgrade
1. You have to order 5-6-8 pcs more than the planed using this type LiFePo4 pouch cells. The quality is not good (bellow the mid 😉), and transport cost from China are high for small orders of these cells. I ordered 32 pieces, of which 3 leaks in the tests, 8 have high internal resistance and low capacity. The tested capacity of pack is 25AH, charged to 3,55 V, cut of on 2,5 V.
2. This type of BMS is for monitoring only and not for large battery management. 200ma balancing current does not work on 30AH battery. With carefully selected cells, there is no need for balancing either. I use a BMS and LCD screen for Voltmeter, Ammeter and for monitoring the battery status. The board also shows the speed. All I have to do is figure out how to set it in km/h, because it currently shows miles per hour. I was worried that the LCD display would not see well in sunlight. No problem with that - it's visible in sunny weather.
3. I have kept for now the original speed controller because it works perfectly for me. The acceleration is satisfactory, not very warm and etc. When I have time I will test Kelly KLS7212S. It'll probably be better, but I'll install it for next season.

Few photos from the upgrade

The old SLA batt
Image

First test mount
Image

The new battery pack
Image

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Image

Image

overvolt   1 µW

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Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by overvolt » Oct 29 2019 12:18pm

I have a 2012 Jonway has 48v 8000 watt hub motor 7.5 original miles when I bought it had 4 6 volt SLA batteries
Controller did not work so upgrade controller to 72 volts turns the tires good with small 36v x 2s 7800 mah battery packs working on building 36v 2s6p battery pack using 7800 mah 36v packs should be more then enought power 2s6p x 7800 mah
Bought no papers from bankrupt x dealer for $300
Planning on building my own frame so I can register in California your looks like a newer version of mine. Going to look at another escooter tonight 2006 EcoCruz may be another jonway how many watt is your motor? My Jonway has 2 sets of halls take a other look at your motor

jelev_k   1 mW

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Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by jelev_k » Oct 30 2019 5:00am

Hi, my motor is 1000 watts. The original controller that I continue to use with the new battery is Jonway Sinwave 60 volts, 35 amps. The controller works great with the new battery. I charge the battery to 78 volts, but after charging is complete and the charger is disconnected, the voltage drops to 73 volts (up to 3,55 per cell, after rest 3.34 V per cell). The DC-DC block also works and does not heat up. My headlights are LED, permanently switched on agreed with local law with a power consumption of less than 1 amp.

I have already gone 600 km after the upgrade and everything looks very good.

To make the battery I use 22 pcs pouch Lifepo4 cells from AliExpress like these
Battery Type: Lifepo4
Nominal Capacity: 30Ah
Nominal Voltage: 3.2v
Battery Dimension: 9*160*240mm
Battery Weight: About 652g
Internal Resistance: less than 1,5 mohms
I have a 2012 Jonway has 48v 8000 watt hub moto …
Maybe your motor is 800 watts, not 8000 watts?

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