Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.
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jelev_k   1 mW

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Joined: Feb 26 2019 12:26pm

Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by jelev_k » Feb 26 2019 2:50pm

Hello, everyone.
Thanks for the interesting forum. I read it regularly :) .
I've decided to upgrade the battery of the Jonway MSG-D 1000 W electric scooter. I need your opinion, and any ideas are welcome.

The batteries are SLA 5 x 12 volts = 60 V. I’m thinking to replace them with one of the following options
1. 17S12P 18650 LI ion Samsung 29E, 2900 mAh, 8 A max from EU store;
2. 17S14P 18650 LI ion some Chinese mark Lava, 2200 mAh, 4,5 A max from local store. I tested a sample. Draw 1,5A for 1,5 Hours from 4,2 to 3,2 V, 2 amps for 40 min;
3. 20 sell soft bag lifepo4 20 or 30 ah battery 3.2v high discharge battery from Alliexpress. 60 A continues. The seller says they are delivering to Europe, but it's probably not going to be easy.

BMS – on the way smart BMS from ICGOGOGO.

Currently the range is about 30 - 40 km daily. After 3500 km it is closer to 30 km. Controller is Chinese 35A, cut off 52 V. The continuous current consumption is about 20A on flat ground with no hills or climbing. The wattmeter measures 600 to 1000 Wh for daily trip – to go to work and back. At first time I will not change the controller, possibly will increase current to 45 amps if It be able with more shunts. I need also for more speed, because the max at the moment is 55 km/H. Not enough for main streets in our city, and slight up to 75 km/h :mrgreen: will be perfect … and if it is possible for the new battery pack to provide and maintain more speed - it is welcome.
My main aim is to increase the range with a single charge up to 60 km or more and at the same time the new battery should have a maximum number of cycles. Will use everyday from April to October, eventually in the weekends the battery will have a rest ... :D

Will the specified configuration be enough to meet my goals and at the same time leave enough energy to keep the battery from overloading?
Are the LiFePo4 better option than 18650 LiIon?

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Dui, ni shuo de dui   100 W

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Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by Dui, ni shuo de dui » Feb 27 2019 2:30am

Option 1 and option 3 seem both ok.
With Li-ion you have a lighter and potentially better battery, but they are a bit more dangerous to manipulate, you need to make sure to have a reliable monitoring and they don't last as long as the lifepo4, not mentioning the fact that they lose their capacity at a higher rate so you need more of them if you account for that. The main drawbacks of lifepo4 batteries is that they are heavier and bulkier.
Personnally I'd go with lifepo4 because they are tougher and have a longer lifespan, but both are totally acceptable so that's a matter of what you prefer. Since you don't plan on building a rocket, I guess that would be the smart choice.
Also, building a pack with pouch cells is generally easier, but you need to be lucky enough to have a frame who allows you to optimize the space.

Anyway, your plan sound pretty much well thought already.

As for speed, the easy way to go faster is to higher the voltage. If you want to reach 75-80kmh then you should probably consider going to 72V.
This might imply to change your controller, DC/DC converter and possibly the dashboard though, depending of what they can take. You should check that first.
:bolt: :bolt: My electric Ninja 250 clone: 16 000W 72V40Ah A123 cells : :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=90032

:bolt: :bolt: My electric Scooter: 11 000W 72V 50Ah LiFePO4 cells: :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=75912

jelev_k   1 mW

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Posts: 13
Joined: Feb 26 2019 12:26pm

Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by jelev_k » Feb 28 2019 3:19pm

Thanks for the reply!
Initially, my research has shown that LiFePo4 batteries are the better choice. Then, reading this forum, I get the impression that 18650 Li ion type is more popular.

I'll probably order something like that - soft bag single sell x 20 ps. There Is plenty of room after I remove 5 x SLA 12V
Battery Type: Lifepo4
Nominal Capacity: 30Ah
Nominal Voltage: 3.2v
Battery Dimension: 9*160*240mm
Battery Weight: About 652g
Internal Resistance: less than 4 mohms
Cycle life: More than 2500 times, DOD at 80%
Input Charging Voltage 3.65v/cell
Input Charging Current Standard 10A, fast 30A
Continuous Discharging Current 60Amps
Max pulse Current Discharge 100Amps pulse
Discharge cut-off Voltage 2.30v/cell
Charging Temperature: 0~45Centigrade
Discharging temperature: -20~60Centigrade
Storage temperature: -20~45Centigrade

I already have a Li-ion charger for 17 cells. The voltage is 17x4,2 = 71,40 V.
Do you think it is good to use for 20 cells of LiFePo4? It will charge up to 3.57 V per sell.

jelev_k   1 mW

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Posts: 13
Joined: Feb 26 2019 12:26pm

Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by jelev_k » May 08 2019 2:34pm

some progress.
I'm thinking of installing foam between the cells. Do I need it?


Image
Last edited by jelev_k on May 08 2019 2:56pm, edited 1 time in total.

jelev_k   1 mW

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Posts: 13
Joined: Feb 26 2019 12:26pm

Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by jelev_k » May 08 2019 2:53pm

I have one more question.
I decided to make a 72 volt system (24 cells Lifepo4), but my motor has not hall sensors. Can I use these controllers for example - they have a sensor input.

KUNRAY BLDC 42V - 72V 3000W Brushless Motor Speed Controller 80A 24Mosfet 120Degree Phase With Sensor Hall For Electric Bike A13
https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?sp ... 2862777074

or this one

Kelly Sinewave Controller KLS7212S 24V-72V 120A SINUSOIDAL Controller for 1000-1500W Hub Motor
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Kelly-S ... f6d28e94c6


Will the two controllers work well without being connected to the sensors? Or I have to install the sensors on the hub motor.

These are the current 1000W motor and controller
Image

Image

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Dui, ni shuo de dui   100 W

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Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by Dui, ni shuo de dui » May 08 2019 9:31pm

jelev_k wrote:
May 08 2019 2:34pm
some progress.
I'm thinking of installing foam between the cells. Do I need it?
I would not. It would make the battery bigger, limit the thermal transferts and also allow the cells to expand and puff, which is something you don't want them to do.
What I've seen on most pouch packs I've opened was that they were using some thin double sided tape to keep the cells together
:bolt: :bolt: My electric Ninja 250 clone: 16 000W 72V40Ah A123 cells : :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=90032

:bolt: :bolt: My electric Scooter: 11 000W 72V 50Ah LiFePO4 cells: :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=75912

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Dui, ni shuo de dui   100 W

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Joined: Jan 29 2016 3:21am

Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by Dui, ni shuo de dui » May 08 2019 9:33pm

jelev_k wrote:
May 08 2019 2:53pm
I have one more question.
I decided to make a 72 volt system (24 cells Lifepo4), but my motor has not hall sensors.
That's weird, I haven't seen any of those motors not having sensors. Are you really sure? Can you check again if they are not coming out somewhere from the motor axle?

If your motor really doesn't have those it might make things complicated.
:bolt: :bolt: My electric Ninja 250 clone: 16 000W 72V40Ah A123 cells : :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=90032

:bolt: :bolt: My electric Scooter: 11 000W 72V 50Ah LiFePO4 cells: :bolt: :bolt:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 12&t=75912

jelev_k   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 13
Joined: Feb 26 2019 12:26pm

Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by jelev_k » May 09 2019 1:36am

I have no idea too.
Only power cables come out of the motor.
When I have time I will remove the motor and I will check if there are sensors inside or not and can they be mounted easily.
... pouch packs I've opened was that they were using some thin double sided tape to keep the cells together …
All my hobby LIPO batteries have a double sided tape between the cells, but the tape itself is 1 mm with foam inside. That's why I've decided to put sheets of foam. But the sheets really take up about 4 centimeters of space, which is already a problem with the size of the battery.

jelev_k   1 mW

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Posts: 13
Joined: Feb 26 2019 12:26pm

Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by jelev_k » May 16 2019 2:47am

… That's weird, I haven't seen any of those motors not having sensors. Are you really sure? Can you check again …
I've disassembled the scooter, and Yes, there is a cable that looks like a 4-wire cable for hall sensors.
I've ordered Kelly Sinewave Controller KLS.

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eee291   10 kW

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Location: Austria, Burgenland

Re: Upgrade the Jonway MSG-D 1000W Electric Scooter Battery

Post by eee291 » May 16 2019 3:45am

Motors with Hall sensors should have 5 thin wires come from the axle not 4.

Also I wouldn't install any kind of foam between the cells, maybe tape both sides of the cells to create a double layer of tape between the cells or use some plastic sheets. On my Lg Chem battery the pouch cells are separated with just a sheet of aluminium, even having bare cells is better than foam.
Once, I killed a 12V (4x Lifepo4) battery by putting foam in between each cell, after just 2 cycles!

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