How to built a 450CC RACE with similar weight power and torque like TACITA ?

EMX_USD

100 mW
Joined
Jan 9, 2020
Messages
36
Location
Belgium
https://www.tacita.it/2019/trace-cross/


maps

two maps of motor power
gearbox

5 speed separate gearbox with hydraulic clutch
rear

aluminum rear monocoque
motor

PLMAC electric motor
BRAKE

two maps of motor brake
technical specifications

Electric motor: PMAC
Mappings: two maps of power
Transmission: 5 speed gearbox with hydraulic clutch
Cooling system: liquid type, with circuits for electric motor and controller
Traction battery: LI-PO Lythium Polymer battery 6 kWh or optional 4,5 kWh for qualification laps
Battery life: over 2000 cycles to 80% initial capacity.
Max power: 44 kW standard motor with 85 N m torque or optional 55 kW with 100 N m torque
Max rpm: 8000
Wheel base: 1490 mm

Chassis: single-shell frame split in chrome-molybdenum
Ground clearance: 330 mm
Front suspension: upside-down telescopic hydraulic fork with advanced axle 45 mm diameter; 300 mm travel
Rear suspension: pregressive link with Mupo fully adjustable suspension unit; 280 mm travel
Front wheel: 1.60 x 21″ – tyre 80/100-21
Front brake: floating disk 300 mm diameter
Rear wheel: 2.15 x 19″ tyre 100/90-19
Rear brake: 220 mm
Regenerative braking: 2 maps of engine brake. No engine brake (2-stroke engine style) and regenerative braking (4-stroke engine style)
Body: polyamide reinforced Kevlar
Range: 12 min race + reserve power
Reserve Power: automatically activated at 5 % of remaining charge, reducing performance to reach the box.
Charger: offboard for racing use, standard 10A or 16A. Available two of them in parallel
Charging time: 20 min with two chargers in parallel and 40 min with the 16A from “reserve power” level to 80% at 220 V .
 
I imagine it's the question that's in the topic of the thread, how to build the equivalent of what it is?

At any rate the supermoto version looks like it'd be a fun thing to take for a spin
 
Buy a used 450 cc, preferable one with a damaged engine. Remove everything ICE related and see if you can find a way to fit the battery needed for your range. Get the best motor controller and battery you can afford and start modifying the frame and make brackets and clamps if that will help you not cutting the original frame. Net result, it will take a whole lot of time, both planning, buying parts and engineering it all to fit the frame. And it will cost so much that when you add the hours spend into your spreadsheet you will not dare to summarize it all. But you will have a special one-off that will bring much fun.


Yeah that motard looked like a whole lot of fun.
 
I don't want to modify the frame and I have the bike that I want to convert. I want to reach 0 to 100 kph in 3 seconds with my 19 inch wheel and my current gear of 48 teeth and reach a speed of 130 kph for 2 hours of motocross training. Here for the moment for my number one project. My second project is a sand race motorcycle with 3h autonomy and 200 kph.

I do not want to buy a motorcycle Tacita or other for about 17000 dollars.
I would like to buy the kit but I cannot find and I do not want the motor to heat up. I received the answer from QS motor for their 3000 w because I wanted to put two...: Motor has a life expectancy of 4 years in normal use.
A. I will never install 2 motor 3000watt (2x 10kg) but if I put two with 6 kWh of battery, by what percentage will the usage time be reduced? rather from 2h to 1h45 (+- 10%) or rather from 2h to 1h30 (25%) or more ??

B. My best question, where to buy the battery pack, I read that Sony vtc6 are among the best, 2000 cycles vs 1000 to 2000 cycles everywhere. True or false?
When can we expect the new generation of lipo, because if i buy an approximate 30x30x30 cm cube pack and in 3 months de same pack will have 20x20x20 cm cube, it will be a problem.

C. For fun, if someone are in interest i receive some informations from and about the Milandr sm, mx moto? :wink:
 
Frankly I don't think a QS3000 will get the power you need. QS make great motors without a doubt, but you're going to get 15kW reliable peaks with that. For example you're trying to build something as fast as or better than an Alta MXR and Zero FX.

A 30kW Alta does 0-60 in 4.0 seconds, top speed of 80mph.
A 33kW FX does 0-60 in 4.0 seconds, top speed of 85mph.

The only "dirt-bike style" bike I've seen do 0-60 in 3 seconds is the 50kW CRF conversion by Sketch, can find it on youtube.
 
EMX_USD said:
I don't want to modify the frame and I have the bike that I want to convert. I want to reach 0 to 100 kph in 3 seconds with my 19 inch wheel and my current gear of 48 teeth and reach a speed of 130 kph for 2 hours of motocross training. Here for the moment for my number one project. My second project is a sand race motorcycle with 3h autonomy and 200 kph.

I do not want to buy a motorcycle Tacita or other for about 17000 dollars.
I would like to buy the kit but I cannot find and I do not want the motor to heat up. I received the answer from QS motor for their 3000 w because I wanted to put two...: Motor has a life expectancy of 4 years in normal use.
A. I will never install 2 motor 3000watt (2x 10kg) but if I put two with 6 kWh of battery, by what percentage will the usage time be reduced? rather from 2h to 1h45 (+- 10%) or rather from 2h to 1h30 (25%) or more ??

B. My best question, where to buy the battery pack, I read that Sony vtc6 are among the best, 2000 cycles vs 1000 to 2000 cycles everywhere. True or false?
When can we expect the new generation of lipo, because if i buy an approximate 30x30x30 cm cube pack and in 3 months de same pack will have 20x20x20 cm cube, it will be a problem.

C. For fun, if someone are in interest i receive some informations from and about the Milandr sm, mx moto? :wink:

Short answer. Your demand will not be met with today's batteries. It seems you have way to high hopes for what you can achieve going BEV. The top speed and acceleration is doable as long as you throw enough money on batteries, motor and controller. Forget about QS motor for your project. For what you want you will need much more powerful motor. Maybe you need like the biggest 110 hp from Zero, or the 75-7 from Zero? And you will ned a powerful controller, and that controller will cost a lot of money. Don't expect 2 hours of continuous riding WOT on the track. Will not happen. You will need spare battery.

Judging by your demands for the build you might in fact save money just buying the TACITA bike and be done with it. If battery drains too quickly get a spare.
 
To Milandr:
=why the battery is so big? what is the weight? Sony? Panasonic? or other?
=why do you don't use a AC motor electric?
=Your controller is adapted with a bus program with english language?
=Do you have problem of burned pieces of the BMS? Why/When?
=Which dimensions of the motor? controller? battery?
=What will break first: motor, controller, battery, BMS, other?

From Milandr:

" Hello Peter, the battery capacity of 6 kW hour. Samsung cells. We use an AC motor. The controller is in English. There are no problems with BMS. We are only testing our motorcycles. Serial production is planned at the plant in Minsk. We do not know the start date of sales yet. "
 
macribs said:
EMX_USD said:
I don't want to modify the frame and I have the bike that I want to convert. I want to reach 0 to 100 kph in 3 seconds with my 19 inch wheel and my current gear of 48 teeth and reach a speed of 130 kph for 2 hours of motocross training. Here for the moment for my number one project. My second project is a sand race motorcycle with 3h autonomy and 200 kph.

I do not want to buy a motorcycle Tacita or other for about 17000 dollars.
I would like to buy the kit but I cannot find and I do not want the motor to heat up. I received the answer from QS motor for their 3000 w because I wanted to put two...: Motor has a life expectancy of 4 years in normal use.
A. I will never install 2 motor 3000watt (2x 10kg) but if I put two with 6 kWh of battery, by what percentage will the usage time be reduced? rather from 2h to 1h45 (+- 10%) or rather from 2h to 1h30 (25%) or more ??

B. My best question, where to buy the battery pack, I read that Sony vtc6 are among the best, 2000 cycles vs 1000 to 2000 cycles everywhere. True or false?
When can we expect the new generation of lipo, because if i buy an approximate 30x30x30 cm cube pack and in 3 months de same pack will have 20x20x20 cm cube, it will be a problem.

C. For fun, if someone are in interest i receive some informations from and about the Milandr sm, mx moto? :wink:

Short answer. Your demand will not be met with today's batteries. It seems you have way to high hopes for what you can achieve going BEV. The top speed and acceleration is doable as long as you throw enough money on batteries, motor and controller. Forget about QS motor for your project. For what you want you will need much more powerful motor. Maybe you need like the biggest 110 hp from Zero, or the 75-7 from Zero? And you will ned a powerful controller, and that controller will cost a lot of money. Don't expect 2 hours of continuous riding WOT on the track. Will not happen. You will need spare battery.

Judging by your demands for the build you might in fact save money just buying the TACITA bike and be done with it. If battery drains too quickly get a spare.


I would buy the Tacita, it's true. Now, i found the best brushless motors in Europe for my project, a motor cost more than 3000 euros ! For the QS it's true, they promise the next generation about 7KW mid motor, now in development but when for sell?
The QS 3 it's for bike without pedals like sur ron lightbee.

The complete project cost around 10000 euros. It's around 5000 euros less than if i buy the Tacita.
How many time to adapt a kit conversion by myself? Maybe one week?
When i see the performance of dirt bikes, i thank you very much and so much Alta motor, they are the first to uncover and solve the problem. The zero also seem to be among the best compromises. I can't find the weight of the 75-7...
ps: i saw vidéo about newest 2020 electric KTM, it's a big joke, scandal, no power and max 85 kph!

For me, the problem is the weight with the actual lithium packs...
 
Yeah the Alta Mx was a great bike in many ways. But as many discovered range was a problem. For use on the track it required a spare battery for a full work out and practice session.
 
macribs said:
Yeah the Alta Mx was a great bike in many ways. But as many discovered range was a problem. For use on the track it required a spare battery for a full work out and practice session.

True, And what do you thing about using the 3,2v battery ? It's good for a house or a hotel but evrerybody using that for years; for a car or a bicycle..... lol i have a new powerfull electric bike but it have 200 kg lol
 
Heelo help, who can explain how to adapt electric motor with a mechanical gearbox motorcycle?
 
efMX Trials Electric Freeride said:
CB/CG 4 Speed Gearbox Module :
https://twinsluck007.webnode.tw/parts/

Thank you very much, i looked for that on alibaba and i found only with 2000w brushless motor.

Something is completely blocking the construction of a competition dirt bike because the sellers make more money with the bike and the scooters. I found a solution but it is still under study ...
 
have a look at these guys too : pohlbock.de

6 phase motocross engine:) sepaa21

81341903_2462956587354180_695883855566995456_o.jpg


https://electricmotorcycles.news/pohlbock-unveils-electric-motorcross-prototype-ebock/
 
Horwin also makes a CG gearbox engine ..
maybe you could find just the engine for a build..
here's a review of the Horwin bike :
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2448344588776228&id=1491511057792924
 
Hm that 6 phase motor looks exciting. And the company also looks like they are doing a little twist here. They are both gonna sell electric dirtbike and provide the DIY crews with parts, including their motor. Very nice. Seems they will launch next month. For the price they are asking for the motor, close to 2.000 € I guess 3rd party tests must be done before committing to that motor. But I like that are selling the motor as a stand alone unit. But so far who knows how that motor performs?

Have look for yourself at their webiste. https://www.pohlbock.de/

 
efMX Trials Electric Freeride said:
Horwin also makes a CG gearbox engine ..
maybe you could find just the engine for a build..
here's a review of the Horwin bike :
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2448344588776228&id=1491511057792924

:bigthumb:
Thanks, really it's new informations for me.
If I summarize 36v and around 10KW (11KW) up to MAX 30KW ... Batteries 1000 cycles for 30 minutes of training with a power equivalent to a 250CC dirt bike. Price 14OOO euros from February, then from March .... For the other brand, very nice design. Approximate description: 80km / h for a maximum profitability of the battery and max speed 95km / h. 6.2KW motor. It would be nice to have the CBS brake system on a dirtbike.
If a complete conversion kit left dirt bike as powerful as a 450CC. How much would you be willing to pay for it? a: 6500, b: 7000 or c: 7500 US dollars. I think I know the answer. Currently, I am trying to find out if there is not another day like black friday for online shopping. Is there another one ?
 
macribs said:
Hm that 6 phase motor looks exciting. And the company also looks like they are doing a little twist here. They are both gonna sell electric dirtbike and provide the DIY crews with parts, including their motor. Very nice. Seems they will launch next month. For the price they are asking for the motor, close to 2.000 € I guess 3rd party tests must be done before committing to that motor. But I like that are selling the motor as a stand alone unit. But so far who knows how that motor performs?

Have look for yourself at their webiste. https://www.pohlbock.de/


:thumb:

It is not so expensive the engine should be efficient, it was developed not far from Switzerland lol the quality of Swiss watches lol I would like to know how to change the speeds ...
 
the pohlbock motor uses a "step less" transmission, not multi gear transmission.. but they also mention an "electronic clutch" option.. looking forward to more testing and reviews of their bike and kit soon:)

the Horwin I find very interesting and can see advantages to a transmission and clutch for off-road riding .. but doubtful the Horwin would meet your performance goals of 450cc comparable..
 
Sent to PohlBock motor:
hello, could you give me more information on the integrated gearbox, thank you.
No speeds? gearbox using oil? ...


We have a translation with tooth pulleys and a toothed belt witch it completely dry.


Mit freundlichem Gruß / kind regards
CEO/ Geschäftsführer
 
:bolt: I have a problem with the choise of lithium battery and I asked four large producers of lithium batteries on aliexpress if I could put two identical batteries in parallel. Two answers: -Hello, parallel connection needs to ensure that the charging and discharging voltages of the two sets of batteries are consistent at all times. So not recommended.
-If the two sets of battery voltages are not the same, damaging the battery will also damage the motor.

Two sellers confirm that is not recommanded, what do you thing about that? because i thing all people use two identical pack in parallel, look rc cars, many rc models using two lipo in parallel. Why not with two identical bigger pack with 18650 cells like 72Volts 20AH ? :lowbatt:
 
regarding paralleling packs, there are a lot of threads; not everything in this list is relevant, but you can generally tell by title which are. there are also others that are not in this list,

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=batt*+parallel*+-group*+-series&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search
 
EMX_USD said:
Sent to PohlBock motor:
hello, could you give me more information on the integrated gearbox, thank you.
No speeds? gearbox using oil? ...


We have a translation with tooth pulleys and a toothed belt witch it completely dry.


Mit freundlichem Gruß / kind regards
CEO/ Geschäftsführer

So it is actually NOT a gearbox? From the response you got it sounds like any one stage reduction. From their website it kind of looked like their gearbox was the next great thing, but they didn't really share most information, specs or anything of value on their site. Now I am thinking that the gearbox in just an enclosed one stage reduction where the belt is shielded from dust, debris, sand, gravel and rocks. Don't get me wrong, that is also nice. But from their website the impression I got was that they made a mechanical gearbox to ensure maximal torque at a wider speed, and that is was more then a one stage reduction.

Well it often hard to find the truth behind all the marketing, hype and hypersale activity on new products. As the price is steep I say maybe better to wait for real world reviews of that motor/"gearbox"?
 
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