Super Soco TS Upgrade

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.
nardcox   10 W

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Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by nardcox » Apr 14 2020 3:50pm

Hi all,

I'm a new guy to the whole EV scene. I've started my journey ~2 months ago when I purchased an 'used' Super Soco TS (it had 2km on it).It's been a blast to drive, I really like the looks and the handling, however the acceleration and topspeed are starting to bug me more and more especially when the battery voltages starts dropping... So I'm planning on doing something about it.

I'll try to place all required info here, if something is missing or unclear just let me know.
If I'm posting in the wrong thread let me know.
I'll update here as well regarding any progress with some pictures / video's (if anyone would be interested).

Use
  • Me: 72kg, 178cm, from the Netherlands.
  • I only drive onroad and it will mainly be used as a commute 3 times a week.
  • The commute is 40km on flat terrain. (I do manage this distance with the current 60V26A battery)

Wishes
Good, Fast & Cheap :lol:
Okay, some more details then
  • Range: Min 50km (The commute distance should not be an issue on a single charge and would prefer to keep the battery between 20% & 80%.)
  • Top speed: 80kmh (will not drive that a whole lot, but would be nice if I can reach it)
  • Commute speed: ~60kmh
  • Budget: Depends. Generally I aim for decent quality/cost. So not top of the line but also no complete rubbish.
  • Several 'driving' modes like I currently have
  • Alarm (sound + wheel locking)
  • Regen

What did I already find out?
I've tried to do my homework as good as possible. It's a really interesting little world and I've loved reading reviews, build thread and watching video's. What's I've come up with so far (also thanks to flippy for his help):
  • Motor: 17" QS273 4KW v3 (4KW = max allowable KW in the Netherlands)
  • Controller: Sabvoton 72150 (not unlocked), Kelly 7245N, Votol EM-150/200
  • Battery: 18650 20S16P based on Samsung 29E7 (should make 72V/46A which makes 3.3KW)
  • BMS: unknown (bluetooth would be nice in order to check voltages for unbalance)
  • Charger: unknown (charging up to max 4.1v) and slower charging is no issue for me (slower = better for the battery)
  • Converter: unknown
  • Spotwelder: Sunko something
  • Tyre: 130mm Continental / Pirelle / Dunlop something (the 273 wants 120-130 and stock is 100) and wider looks better, going even wider requires a new rear arm

Questions
I'm open for all feedback. So if this setup is overkill, the quality of the components is rubbish or whatever please let me know. If you have alternatives I will definitely be open to that since I'm still a n00b.

Motor
What winding?


Controller
Sabvoton vs Kelly. I'm reading more negative things about the Kelly and I do like the looks of Sabvoton better (/care).
I'm also contemplating about also using a new display since I don't want to overcomplicate stuff with keeping the old display and the Sabvoton can be ordered incl. a screen. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000215320240.html


Battery
  • Are the Samsung 29E7 okay? (they are one of the cheapest and perform well according to some test I've seen here)
  • Honeycomb structure layout because that will give the biggest density and easiert to build pack within this space (150x180x330mm)
  • 2 Stacks of 10S16P.
18650 total 4.PNG
18650 total 4.PNG (133.47 KiB) Viewed 2916 times
  • Soldering the balancing wires between the cells not on them
  • Adding busbars on the + & - over the total length with 6/8AWG wires (soldering before spotwelding)
I was thinking about adding a 12v 90mm fan for air circulation (and not adding shrinkwrap) but air circulation does mean dirt circulation and I'm not sure if this adds anything?)

BMS
20S 72V 150A (same port or parallel port)?
Example: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32924399920.html

Charger Converter

Spotwelder

Anythign else i'm forgetting


Cost
Rough estimates of what I'm guessing the cost will be so far:
  • Motor: €600
  • Controller + display: €400
  • Battery cells: €800
  • Battery BMS: €150
  • Battery Misc: €200
  • (rear)Tyre: €100
  • Transformer: €100
  • Charger: €150
  • Spotwelder: €150
Total: €2.650

c.wagner   10 µW

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by c.wagner » May 01 2020 9:12am

nice project! And hello from the SuperSoco forum ;)

Iam planning to convert my SuperSoco TC to also 4kW nominal and a ~3,5kWh battery.

Currently Iam driving around with a "dual controller setup" where the original controller keeps the system and communication running and the new controller (in my case, a Kelly KLS6035S) operates the motor. So I basically just duplicated some signals, like the hall sensor cables, throttle,...

But I want to change that setup to a more "clean" one, which is just one controller.
Iam thinking about a VESC 73 300 which gives every configuration and measuring you could imagine in a electric scooter :D
Motor will stay the same.
The only problem Iam facing is the the display: I want a fully functioning Speedometer with maybe even a range indicator..

SlowCo   1 MW

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by SlowCo » May 01 2020 11:28am



Have you already removed the 45(50)km/u speed limit? Then just add a second battery for less voltage sag (stronger acceleration) and longer range. But be advised that you will be riding uninsured with the higher top speed.

Or just get the Super Soco TC max: https://webshop.lucdebondt.be/product/s ... c-max-125/ (kon zo snel geen NL dealer vinden)

nardcox   10 W

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by nardcox » May 01 2020 11:59am

@c.wagner, hi there. Battery setup will be equal to mine then I guess.
Why switch to VESC when you already have a Kelly, are you not liking the Kelly setup?

Regarding the display I"m having the same issues.
Sabvoton has a display.
Votol I've seen something on AliExpress but nothing 'live'.
For Kelly I haven't found anything. This was the reason I was leaning towards the Sabvoton. However I just contacted QS and they adviced me the Votol EM150. I've asked why and if they have a screen that goes with it. I've been browsing the Votol topic here on ES and have seen it doesn't support bluetooth (which is a pitty) but I haven't been able to find anything regarding screen compatibility.

@slow-co, yes I have and it does max 70kmph on the speedo which is around 63kmph GPS. However I only reach this without wind / wind in the back and a full battery, you will notice a drop off in acceleration and top speed as soon as you get below 50%. Besides at this speed everything is running at it's limits which I don't like since it will decrease the life. Currently 95% off my driving is on mode 2 (53kmph on speedo and 47kmph GPS).

For the Super Soco TCMax you will need a motorcycle drivers licence compared to the TS where a car drivers license is sufficient.

EDIT: Just got feedback from QS on my question why they advice Votol over Sabvoton.
The performance of EM-150 is better than Sabvoton 72150. And the EM-150 can increase the speed of motors by flux-weakening function.
We programmed the controller EM-150 already, no need to change data. You can change it by computer easily if you want to change something.
I've said Sabvoton also supports Flux Weakening and asked them (again) if they have screen support for the Votol.
Last edited by nardcox on May 01 2020 12:26pm, edited 1 time in total.

c.wagner   10 µW

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by c.wagner » May 01 2020 12:25pm

@nardcox the VESC controller is like the gold standard of all the ecu´s you could think of :D
It features massive communication and configuration possibilities and comes with it´s own app that can be used for presets and speed controll.
Aaand it´s open source so if you got the skill to do it, building your own display can be done.

The kelly controller doens´t quite feature the quality and configuration I want...

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by fechter » May 01 2020 12:43pm

The stock motor can probably do fine with a little more power. I’d try it before replacing it.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

nardcox   10 W

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by nardcox » May 01 2020 12:45pm

Found it :). Looks cool but not looking for a big DIY, would like more of a plug and play solution.

Regarding options I would like:
  • Torque control, this is my biggest annoyance with the stock controller (something Kelly doesn't do, or perhaps they do if you indicate you want torque control they can flash the software)
  • Proper regen
  • 3 driving modes
  • Alarm
  • Cruise Control
  • Temp sensor support
  • Powered reverse
@fechter, yes I've read more people putting in more power on the motor than stock. Might try that since it's a rather expensive part, especially when you include the shipping & taxes.

SlowCo   1 MW

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by SlowCo » May 01 2020 1:40pm

nardcox wrote:
May 01 2020 11:59am
For the Super Soco TCMax you will need a motorcycle drivers licence compared to the TS where a car drivers license is sufficient.
:lol:

So you're going to build a DIY TC Max which will not be examined by the authorities (RDW individuele keuring). That will become an electric motorcycle instead of a moped that you will ride in traffic and thus be uninsured in case of an accident. Don't think too light about this. You'll be liable for all damages.

nardcox   10 W

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by nardcox » May 01 2020 2:07pm

If I upgrade the motor it will still be within the legal limit of 4KW. It will basically be a gasoline moped that can potentially go faster than 45kmph. Main reasons for upgrading are however faster acceleration, better throttle control and longer range.

SlowCo   1 MW

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by SlowCo » May 01 2020 2:52pm

Doesn't matter. As soon as you change parts on the bike the type approval (typegoedkeuring) will be void and the vehicle needs to be presented to the authorities (RDW) for an individual approval test. It's basically putting a 125cc engine in a 50cc moped and thinking it's not a problem because you restricted it to 4kW. Just be aware of the implications. :wink:

nardcox   10 W

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by nardcox » May 18 2020 1:13pm

Small update.


Received my new tires.
  • Front: Pirelli Angel City 80/100/17
  • Rear: Pirelli Angel City 120/70/17 (+5% cicum.)
Mounted the front myself, will do the rear as soon as I receive the motor.


Also ordered some other goodies:
  • QS 17x3.5" 4000W 273 40H V3 960rpm
  • Votol EM-150
  • Speedometer
  • DC-DC converter 72v-12v 10A
  • Throttle

Went for 960rpm instead of 1.090rpm.
  • 1.090rpm should do 90kmph to 110 kmph at 72v according to QS which is more than I need.
  • According to Advanced-EV Calculators 1.090rpm, 23.6" tire and gear ratio of 1 would be 76.6mph/122kmph with a 15% rotating loss = 103kmph which simply is more than I require.
  • 960rpm would be 67.4mph/108kmph - 15% = 92kmph which is still more than plenty.
  • Calculating with 3V cell voltage 960rpm / 3.7v * 3.0v = ~780rpm - 15% = ~47mph/75kmph

Wanted to order batteries now but saw they aren't available
  • 300mm wide Heatshrink should do the trick

I'm open to suggestions if things can be done better/cheaper.

EDIT: Just ordered the Arduino Spotwelder kit and want to order the spacers and Nickel.
Regarding the Nickel there are some 'rules' regarding the width and thickness to use.

I'm planning on pulling 8KW max (according to QS) at 72V = 111A / 17P (should be a tight fit) = 6.5A per cell max.
0.2mm x 7mm <6.4A will be optimal and till 9.6A is acceptable, so I'm ordering the 0.2mm.
If there is an error in my thinking please let me know.

leffex   1 kW

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by leffex » Jul 06 2020 2:39pm

Sup yo nardcox

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2ONwtUexvw
This is inside your original motor.

This motor is like a qs or similar. I don't know the original specs but max power on original is 30kw or 30000w and I don't know how your new motor compare to original.

I think the 29 E7 is a good choice of a cell however the Sunko may be not the best but it will do the jobb I think. It can do max 0.2mm I think. There are worse than sunko and I got that one and even never used it.
Salestech in an ebike store

nardcox   10 W

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by nardcox » Jul 15 2020 9:15am

leffex wrote:
Jul 06 2020 2:39pm
Sup yo nardcox
Hi leffex, sorry I missed your comment.

30KW = 30.000W that seems a bit much.
The TS is supposed to have 1200W vs 1500W for the TC. Both can do about double that for short burst like acceleration.
The new motor can do 4000W and more than double of that during acceleration. I expect a solid improvement.

I received the 29E7 today. I've also bought the Maltrics Spotwelder with a LIPO instead of the Sunko.

I have all pictures here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/rWyHYPyg7BZbEREW7

Also decided to build a 20S20P pack, since that would fit (hopefully). I've measured all the cells today and all where 3.56x volt so that was good. Will try and start tomorrow with spotwelding. Will make 2 x 10S20P and place them in serie to get the 20S20P pack.

leffex   1 kW

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by leffex » Jul 16 2020 6:35pm

It can do 30,000w 0-70 in 5s and 0-100 maybe 10s. Cars are gone in a second 100 meters behind.

The Malectrics welder is better than the sunkko. Good choice!

qs 273 motor is the one I think that the soco has. Meaning that you already have the motor. To know for sure is to open up and se for yourself(very hard and can damage motor if not doing it right). You can also measure the weight of the Super Soco TS rear wheel with and without rubber tyre as well to compare with the new motor you are getting. If the weight of the new motor is higher. It is more likely that it has thicker components and so more robust and powerful. its like comparing a small 1kg motor to a 10 or 20kg motor. of course the bigger motors will have more power and also more continous power. (qs 273 max phase amps should be 330 or if not misstaken 240A. Meaning a larger and more robust(weight) of the motor can take even more amps. I got unknown errors at the moment and I'm trying to solve it)

Nice photos!
You made good series connections. That's were the current is going. 20p is very good for your usage.

Maybe add more protection in the bottom part of the battery as all the weight is there and to the sides as well for perfect fit. - We don't like the original "jumping" battery. hehehe
Salestech in an ebike store

nardcox   10 W

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by nardcox » Jul 20 2020 3:16am

30.000W from a 60V battery = 500A. Unless you have a beast of an battery and a beast of a controller it seems very unlikely that you are pulling 30KW. I will make a short video or some pics of both motors. I can however tell you they are different in size and also by weight (just a feeling, didn't weigh them).

Those acceleration numbers are however pretty fast, do you have a video of that?

I ordered a wide reararm but just received the feedback they are not available anymore...da f*ck. So now I have a motor that doesn't fit...

Anyway, got most of the battery spotwelded. Still have to decide on how to 'make' the battery, cells > foam > plastic of cells > plastic > foam. I've uploaded some new video's and pictures of the battery as well.. it's getting very heavy...

leffex   1 kW

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by leffex » Jul 20 2020 5:19pm

Its calculated in a different way

Battery amps and phase amps. Phase amps is true battery amps I guess but modulated or multiplied by a performance controller. I don't know how it works just that it gives a lot of power.

Battery amps max is 150A

Battery phase amps from the controller into the motor is 350A

95 volt x 350 phase amps = 33250W

No videos you have to take my word. I ain't saying" You gotta believe me this time when I...". Maybe soon but performance is not something I want to show off - rather the scenic views in the area and what to do.

If you are faster of the line when you are going slow - that is fast.

Ouch... maybe some later project in the future when you find or make a new reararm. The original motor will take 100A easely. Driving straight road at 50km/h uses 1kw? so 15A from whole of battery?

So much time to build a battery and still you are doing it almost the fastest way with that spot welder.

I have Panasonics pf s in my battery. Also one series are ga and another one is lg mh1 and another noname 8000mah puch cells x 8. totaling 65ah in average for each serie. But I want to make all 18650s. feels better. The 29es are very longlife cells especially compared to pfs as the pfs lost from the 5-10 tested cells in the same cell performance group. But for 0.5 each or for free - that is a steal for 2600-2800mah higher performance cells .
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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by nardcox » Jul 21 2020 4:24pm

Ahh, 95V that's a lot, I was thinking on 60V.
Do you have pictures of that all, sounds like you have a lot of stuff packed onto the frame.

And how did you connect the Super Soco connectors to the new controller?

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by Addy » Jul 21 2020 4:37pm

leffex wrote:
Jul 20 2020 5:19pm
Its calculated in a different way

Battery amps and phase amps. Phase amps is true battery amps I guess but modulated or multiplied by a performance controller. I don't know how it works just that it gives a lot of power.

Battery amps max is 150A

Battery phase amps from the controller into the motor is 350A

95 volt x 350 phase amps = 33250W
Your calculations are incorrect. Phase amps are not "true battery amps".

You can think of phase amps working like a step-down power supply. You take 95V and 150A from your battery (which is 14.25kW) and you step that down to a lower voltage with higher current, which is what the motor sees.

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by leffex » Jul 21 2020 5:08pm

nardcox wrote:
Jul 21 2020 4:24pm
Ahh, 95V that's a lot, I was thinking on 60V.
Do you have pictures of that all, sounds like you have a lot of stuff packed onto the frame.

And how did you connect the Super Soco connectors to the new controller?
I have removed a lot of plastics on the inside which will give you more space. Also there's a lot of space underneath the battery bottom piece on each side as well as the. lowers frame part in the back.

3awg wire speced as 4awg 26mm in diameter for battery and phase wires. Battery contacts are 5.5mm bullets on most connections. Some are 4mm banana.

Just feeding 60-70v to original controller for supply voltage to all peripherals lights etcetera.
Salestech in an ebike store

leffex   1 kW

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by leffex » Jul 21 2020 5:12pm

Addy wrote:
Jul 21 2020 4:37pm
...You take 95V and 150A from your battery (which is 14.25kW) and you step that down to a lower voltage with higher current, which is what the motor sees.
Is the effect / The real world performance that it is 33kw because the phase amps are 350 but the voltage just lower of course or are you saying 14kw is always 14kw whatever you mix the amps or the voltage to the motor. Are there any advantages or is it just how the controller works.

thanks
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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by Addy » Jul 21 2020 5:43pm

leffex wrote:
Jul 21 2020 5:12pm
Is the effect / The real world performance that it is 33kw because the phase amps are 350 but the voltage just lower of course or are you saying 14kw is always 14kw whatever you mix the amps or the voltage to the motor. Are there any advantages or is it just how the controller works.

thanks
Yes, I'm saying that 14kW you're drawing from the battery is preserved, you don't get any more power out of the motor than that. It's just how physics works, no free energy here :)

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by nardcox » Jul 25 2020 1:17am

Im stuck. I can't get the 10 AWG wires connected to the busbars.. Also I can't get the wires off of the BMS (I need a longer cable). I used a Weller 40W, a Weller 120W and a Bruder Mannesmann 100W and non of them can seem to make the BMS wire so warm that I can take them off... Am I'm doing something wrong or?

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by amberwolf » Jul 25 2020 2:02am

How big is the tip you're using on the iron? It's often not about the watts, but about the thermal mass.

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by nardcox » Jul 25 2020 4:13pm

Got it to work, took some sanding paper and gave the tip a good scrub and all was good...
amberwolf wrote:
Jul 25 2020 2:02am
How big is the tip you're using on the iron? It's often not about the watts, but about the thermal mass.
Another question though.. Does anyone normally use plugs when connecting everything? I'm a but scared of blowing something up so I was thinking about putting some AS150 plugs on the battery side of things.

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/7mm-as150-a ... pairs.html

EDIT:
Where do I place the fuse?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/aS7LcGV5xFyAh5g69

Between the controller positive and the battery positive?

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Super Soco TS Upgrade

Post by fechter » Jul 27 2020 1:42pm

Plugs are good. I use some similar to the ones you linked to. Sort of hard to plug and unplug, but I only use them when servicing something.

Yes, I would put the fuse between the battery + and the controller.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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