More low end torque for up hill climbing power

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.
Akore   1 mW

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More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by Akore » May 08 2021 6:07pm

Hello all! New here and first post.

I have a Energy Motion Ocean motorcycle that has a 72v 3000w hub motor. I upgraded the 6 Gel batteries to a Lithium one which shed a good deal of weight from the motorcycle but I still have issues on some of the steep hills here in the Mountains of Colombia and of course if I have my wife on the back it just can't cut it. What is the best way to get a bit more bottom end kick out of the motorcycle?

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john61ct   100 GW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by john61ct » May 08 2021 8:30pm

Go to a smaller wheel

Also upgrading the controller, FOC being more efficient, maybe high as possible voltage to get more power within the same current/heat limitations.

That last is your "hard & fast" limit unless you can improve cooling, after that need to upgrade the motor

Akore   1 mW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by Akore » May 09 2021 9:50am

Thank you for the reply. The Ocean came with already very small 12" (120/70-12) wheels which are not that smooth on the mostly unpaved road around here in Jardin Colombia. How does one upgrade a "Controller"? I take it that is the box under the seat that the technician reprogrammed for the new Lithium battery pack with the USB port?

I will say that the system seems to have some sort of heat protection built in as one time I took the wife out for a long ride up a long hill and the motorcycle started to go slower and slower until it just shut off. I then had to let it cool as the motor built into the rear wheel was very hot.

Will replacing the 3000w hub motor with a 5000w or 6000w fix the problem or is a 3000w motor enough for two people going up mountain roads?

Elektrosherpa   10 W

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by Elektrosherpa » May 09 2021 11:42am

As far as I know, the "narrow tube" in an electric drivetrain is more often the controller and/or the battery than the motor itself.

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by larsb » May 09 2021 12:50pm

Elektrosherpa wrote:
May 09 2021 11:42am
As far as I know, the "narrow tube" in an electric drivetrain is more often the controller and/or the battery than the motor itself.
No, not really when it comes to high loads. Plenty of us have burnt a motor or two :D

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flippy   100 MW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by flippy » May 10 2021 4:15am

i dbout your original motor actually is 3kW. its generally just a upselled 1.5~2kW motor they sell as 3kW because the controller puts out 3kW. if you still have the original controller you need to replace it with something better first. a kelly is generally the cheapest way to get more power.
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Akore   1 mW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by Akore » May 10 2021 6:13pm

Ok, thanks. Yes it is the original controller. Does this "kelly" have to be programmed to match the motor and battery?

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flippy   100 MW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by flippy » May 10 2021 6:35pm

https://kellycontroller.com/shop/kls-mn/

72V and the amps is a budget concern. more give you more power and higher efficiency and helps preventing hitting the "amp-wall" as you are bound to upgrade more parts. next stop will probably be a aftermarket 4~8kW QS motor for example.

if you want advice on that you need to share more about your current setup, wishes and possible future plans.
The bitterness of low quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten

Akore   1 mW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by Akore » May 12 2021 12:01pm

Thank you for the link. I will take some pictures of the Battery, motor and the Controller and just maybe someone will recognize what I actually have in this motorcycle from China.

Not sure why they keep the info such a secrete. A google of Electric Motion Ocean Motorcycle turns up two hits and they are just photos. I do have the manual for it, in Espanol, but it also gives no information about what is in it.

Akore   1 mW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by Akore » May 12 2021 2:16pm

So it looks like the control is only an 80A. Could that be what is holding back this motorcycle?

I added a picture of the battery which is a Tronex Mobility72V 30Ah, and the rear wheel tire which won't be of much help as there are no marking on it to tell me what kind of motor is hidden inside. My guess would be I would have to pull the whole rear tire off and try and open up the housing to look inside to see what kind of motor is hidden in there?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/sCodcxv6oUREK5DL6

Akore   1 mW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by Akore » May 12 2021 2:47pm

Current wishes: Just to be able to go up long steep grades with wife on the back without the thing slowing down and stopping after over heating.

For the future wishes, depending on how long this new Lithium battery pack lasts, I might add a second 30Ah pack to the motorcycle so that I have 60Ah total for longer trips here in the Andes Mountains of Jardin as it is very scenic here in Colombia.

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flippy   100 MW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by flippy » May 12 2021 3:17pm

what is overheating?
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Akore   1 mW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by Akore » May 12 2021 3:43pm

I am going to say the motor inside the rear wheel is what over heated as the rim got very very hot after a long uphill trip with the wife on the back. The motorcycle started to slow down and then at one point it just shut completely off like a thermal breaker tripped. I let it cool down for 30 minutes and it ran just fine then. Haven't had the issue since but then again I have not taken it on such a taxing uphill trip.

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flippy   100 MW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by flippy » May 12 2021 3:50pm

does the motor even have a temp sensor? i am willing to bet it was the controller that shit the bed.
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Akore   1 mW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by Akore » May 12 2021 5:14pm

That I do not know. All I know is the rear rim was extremely hot and and motorcycle started to go slower and slower and then just shut off. Maybe the hub motors get hot when used for a while? Maybe it is time for another up hill ride and try and figure out what is causing the issue?

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by john61ct » May 13 2021 12:47am

Of course hub motors get hot when overloaded.

Hot enough to get destroyed if the controller has no overtemp protection.

Adding a CA v3 will also work well.

Doesn't even take a big hill, just increasing the load on a hot day can do it.

Akore   1 mW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by Akore » May 13 2021 9:24am

Thanks for the help John. I see that there are a few of these CA devices, I take it I need to figure out which one will work with my controller/motorcycle? Would it be best to replace the controller and add the CA v3 at the same time?

https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle ... lysts.html

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flippy   100 MW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by flippy » May 13 2021 12:48pm

a CA and a new controller would be the first step. a stronger motor would be step 2~3.
you can also get a bit bigger rear sprocket (or a smaller front one) to get more rippems on the motor, make it easyer for the motor to get up hills.
The bitterness of low quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten

Akore   1 mW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by Akore » May 13 2021 1:56pm

This is a gearless HUB motor built into the rear wheel rim so no go on changing out gears. But boy that would have been nice to slap a 4 on the floor into this beast! :lol:

I have added a few more photos of the motorcycle to my Google shared album:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/sCodcxv6oUREK5DL6

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flippy   100 MW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by flippy » May 13 2021 3:26pm

its a standard chinese frame with a QS motor (made by QS for bosch). nothing special.

check if there are 5 or 6 thin wires coming from the motor, those are the hall sensor wires. if there is a 6th then there also is a temp sensor.
The bitterness of low quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten

Akore   1 mW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by Akore » May 14 2021 10:31am

Thanks for all of your help flippy, As you can tell from all my questions this is my first electric motorcycle. I rebuilt a 1964 Chevelle SS from the ground up with no issues but never worked on electric until now.

I added a new photo to the Google photos of the wires coming up from the motor. Looks like I only have 5, red, blue, green, yellow and black. There are also 3 thick wires which are for the power to the motor itself? Positive, Negative and Ground?

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flippy   100 MW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by flippy » May 14 2021 11:57am

that means you dont have a temp sensor.

the 5 wires are 5V, ground, and 3 hall sensors. the 3 thick ones are the actual motor windings that carry the power.

there is no negative or power nor ground. negative and ground are the same thing btw...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCEiOnuODac
The bitterness of low quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten

Akore   1 mW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by Akore » May 14 2021 2:07pm

Thank you for the link to the video. Now I know how my motor works. :bigthumb:

So with no temp sensor it must have been the Controller itself that slowed the motorcycle down and then shut off the entire system?

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flippy   100 MW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by flippy » May 14 2021 2:36pm

Akore wrote:
May 14 2021 2:07pm
So with no temp sensor it must have been the Controller itself that slowed the motorcycle down and then shut off the entire system?
flippy wrote:
May 12 2021 3:50pm
does the motor even have a temp sensor? i am willing to bet it was the controller that shit the bed.
called it :mrgreen:
The bitterness of low quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten

Akore   1 mW

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Re: More low end torque for up hill climbing power

Post by Akore » May 14 2021 6:33pm

So it looks like while I'm back in the USA I should try and get a new Controller (Kelly) and a CA v3 to bring back to Colombia with me to do some much needed upgrades. Just need to try and pick out which models of both I should get. Any idea on the weight of these both? Need to try and figure out what I can pack into my 40 pound limit suitcase and what I can take in my carry-on. Controller in my carry-on might freak out TSA. :?

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