Converting scooter to recumbent and to electric streamliner

SaladFish

10 W
Joined
Dec 14, 2015
Messages
71
Hello,

I had this idea recently. My motorcycle is fuel efficient 48.8km/L but it has an uncomfortable road bike seating position which I dread since I work a physicals job.

I want comfort, super efficiency and lane filtering fun!

Using an existing vehicle saves thousands in red tape (engineering).

If I could convert a scooter frame to a recumbent, I could have a lowracer seating position, space for two riders and fit inside of a streamlined fairing.

140mweb7904c0be-3023-42f4-8e75-940e0b0d3804.jpg

It would be top/bottom symmetrical body with a head bubble to accommodate two.

Vespa-Streamliners-The-Vintagent-1958-fullenclosure.jpg

Something like this has been tried before!

I could also get a hub motor and convert it to electric although that is subject to the cost of engineering. Existing electric scooters are prohibitively expensive.

Anyway I made this thread to see if anyone has made recumbent scooters so I can get some ideas and also to be pointed in the direction of a petrol to electric scooter conversion of which I'm sure there are more of as I was just reading one in the search.
 
I was going to recommend to find an old Corbin Sparrow to start with but that won't satisfy the 2-up requirement.
 
SaladFish said:
I had this idea recently.

If I could convert a scooter frame to a recumbent, I could have a lowracer seating position, space for two riders and fit inside of a streamlined fairing.

The British recumbent motorcycle guru, Royce Creasy, has finally realized our species is brain dead, and about to go extinct.

https://bikeweb.com/node/3790

That said, if you are young, you probably still have a decade to have fun before then. Check out the many bikes on the site for inspiration.

https://bikeweb.com/image
 
Yes ... there has been some conversions of gasoline powered scooters into streamliners.
Browse for the "Craig Vetter Fuel Economy Challenge" and you'll find something.
Clive "Ernie" Buckler from Spokane converted a least one (maybe two ?) mid sized scooters into a streamliners.
I've done a fair bit of human powered streamlined recumbents some of which have had high mileage and long term use on public roads.
Placing the wheels at the very ends of the shape yields the the best cross wind stability.
In my opinion, most scooters are too short to support a stable aero shape.
Bike in the picture you posted will be a fast racer with limited everyday public street potential.
A stable design intended for public street usage will have a long wheelbase with the center of aero pressure, center of mass, center of balance all converge at the riders seat.

coyote-casagranda.jpgCross Country.JPGImage0050.JPGWatsonville 1989 600dpi.jpg

A link to Craig Vetter's design page
https://www.craigvetter.com/pages/Motorcycle_Designs/Motorcycle%20Main.html
 
E-Pursuit.jpeg
 
Warren said:
The British recumbent motorcycle guru, Royce Creasy, has finally realized our species is brain dead, and about to go extinct.
https://bikeweb.com/node/3790
That said, if you are young, you probably still have a decade to have fun before then. Check out the many bikes on the site for inspiration.
https://bikeweb.com/image

Royce Creasy has done some great work.
The life lesson here :
Being technically possible verses market acceptable are two different problems to solve.
A hard concept to come to terms with.
 
PaPaSteve said:
The life lesson here :
Being technically possible verses market acceptable are two different problems to solve.
A hard concept to come to terms with.

Oh, yeah. I was into recumbent bikes since the 1980s, when commercial ones were very rare. I saw the rise, and almost complete disappearance of, recumbent two wheelers.

I redesigned the drive on my 1990s Thys Rowfiets to make it function like a sliding seat rig, while maintaining a fixed seat. It was amazing. I put thousands of miles on it, even in the Blue Ridge Mountains. Of course, a patent search showed it wasn't a new idea at all, the first example of using a mixing block for rowing was filed in the 1890s.

I showed it to the coach of the UVA rowing team, and he didn't have a clue as to why you would want to row a bike.

I modified my Linear to address the things I didn't like on the Thys, like replacing the tilting tiller steering with center-of-fulcrum steering, so the bars didn't swing out to the side in sharp turns.

I modified my C2 rowing machine to use my system, and posted it to the C2 rowing forum. Nobody got it. They just criticized my rowing form. Several years later, C2 came out with the same design.

My only success was suggesting it to Justin, of Grin Tech, for the stoker on his solar tandem trike.


PDRM0860.jpg
PDRM0854.jpg
RowVelo700-406.jpg
p3.jpg
Grin solar tandem.png
 
SaladFish said:
Hello,

I had this idea recently. My motorcycle is fuel efficient 48.8km/L but it has an uncomfortable road bike seating position which I dread since I work a physicals job.

I want comfort, super efficiency and lane filtering fun!

Using an existing vehicle saves thousands in red tape (engineering).

Anyway I made this thread to see if anyone has made recumbent scooters so I can get some ideas and also to be pointed in the direction of a petrol to electric scooter conversion of which I'm sure there are more of as I was just reading one in the search.

Here's a e-scooter build over in Adventure Rider where I've watched the builder's progress.
https://www.advrider.com/f/threads/vespa-classic-electric-build.1484269/

Have you considered the BMW ?
https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/models/urban_mobility/ce04.html
 
I’d try any type of recumbent before going further. the lounge chair position seemed comfy to me but as soon as moving with traffic I found it scary and not easy to balance, maneuver or be seen. The common complaints. If you lived somewhere really rural maybe it would be better.

I don’t know what “lane filtering fun” is but if it’s anything like splitting traffic you will be squished. A negative view all round related to recumbents at least with the common low ones. Surely u can adjust an upright bike position to be comfortable if that’s the real goal. What’s uncomfortable?
 
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The design has fundamentally flawed efficiency and comfort.

Efficiency: 100,000km of fuel costs $3,000-4,000 AUD ($2,000-2700 USD). The top box has much needed utility and offers a ~14% fuel economy improvement which will one day offset the cost of materials. A front fairing may have marginal cost effectiveness.

Comfort: There is only so much you can do with riser bars.

Safety: I ride a motorcycle, safety goes out the window if a motorcycle had a window. Drivers often can't see cars let alone motorcycles.

Overall it bothers me to use a poor designed vehicle even though it is much better than other vehicles. It's something I've thought about for 10+ years.

I have made a couple recumbent bicycles and ridden them. At upright seat, no tiller steering and no interference with the front wheel should enable easy and safe control.
 
Over the years I've owned around fifty motorcycles.
Most were off-road however the last 10 years of my working life was spent commuting 60 miles into San Fransisco Bay traffic where riding a motorcycle was the only reasonable option ... for me.
A BMW sport bike was by far the least comfortable and least maneuverable in tight traffic situations. With the factory pannier bags it had poor cross wind stability. Removing the side bags in favor of a top box helped.
For several years a Honda 650 Silverwing scooter was a great solution.
Comfortable, enough power, amazing weather protection, stable in cross winds, super fuel mileage but it had lousy suspension, brakes and few options for tires.
I finally settled on a 990 KTM Adventure. The tall seat, upright seating is a huge safety benefit in traffic allowing great sight lines over car roofs. Excellent power, brakes, suspension with reasonable fuel mileage. Not the best rain protection but good crosswind stability. The firm seat was OK for commuting ... no so great for long distance touring.
Rode the KTM more miles then all the other fuel powered bikes I've ever owned.
Currently converting a 2006 KTM 950 Adventure to electric.

However ... I have far more hours riding, designing, building human powered streamlined recumbents.
Which ... of course ... are not freeway capable ...
 
The very dodgy Lightning Motorcycle company claims to be working on a production streamliner. From the video, it seems this prototype is based on a scooter.

https://youtu.be/4Sm9znxelrU

This modified scooter looks pretty sweet.

https://www.nestofdragons.net/my-electric-vehicles/carbon-funbike/

https://youtu.be/gqo-i0uKSek

https://youtu.be/c014BoTLE24
 
Good find but Lightning Motorcycle is far from "dodgy"
They are high quality, expensive, very fast bikes.

Modified scooter looks good, and would love to try it.
This one is not freeway capable if that's a requirement for SaladFish or not.
Design brief :
Feet behind the front wheel is essential for creating a crush zone and is a long standing racecar construction requirement.
Some design rules specify behind the axle center, some rules state behind the whole wheel.
The shape being rather open and turbulent may not be too effected by crosswinds. Time in the saddle will bare this out.
A streamlined shape phenomenon ... the more aero efficient the shape is the more sensitive it will be to crosswinds.
That's why for a more efficient aero shape it helps for the wheels to be on the ends to brace against the center of aero pressure in the middle.

https://lightningmotorcycle.com/

https://electrek.co/2020/06/04/exclusive-first-look-lightning-motorcycles-enclosed-electric-motorcycle/

EDIT
Reviewing further into the "Nest of Dragons" site I'd have to say his creativity is awesome.
 
It's not a scooter, but you might look at this thread:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=88612
for some ideas.
file.php
 
PaPaSteve said:
Good find but Lightning Motorcycle is far from "dodgy"

I talked to Richard Hatfield for perhaps a half hour, at the 2010 VIR TTXGP. He seemed like a very pleasant, and knowledgeable guy. His "flying banana" was clearly the fastest bike there. Lightning has several speed records, at Pikes Peak, and Bonneville. I don't know if he is independently wealthy, or what, but the total number of Lightnings actually built, sold, and delivered is miniscule. I have read stories from some very disappointed customers.

This may be the bike they were planning to run at Bonneville this year, if it hadn't flooded. Again, amazing bikes, but no real production.

https://youtu.be/j6ZeHpOz-xc
 
Warren said:
I talked to Richard Hatfield for perhaps a half hour, at the 2010 VIR TTXGP. He seemed like a very pleasant, and knowledgeable guy. His "flying banana" was clearly the fastest bike there. Lightning has several speed records, at Pikes Peak, and Bonneville. I don't know if he is independently wealthy, or what, but the total number of Lightnings actually built, sold, and delivered is miniscule. I have read stories from some very disappointed customers.

This may be the bike they were planning to run at Bonneville this year, if it hadn't flooded. Again, amazing bikes, but no real production.

https://youtu.be/j6ZeHpOz-xc

THX ... I've seen the video recently but perhaps others in this thread haven't.
When the Google funded wind research company I used to work for was looking at moving closer to the Google campus Richard was the contact person for the architectural firm that was engaged in drafting up whatever mods the building needed. i.e. maybe he's an architect ?
Ultimately, the company stayed in Alameda and choose a different firm.
 
Warren said:
https://www.rideapart.com/features/455680/what-happened-to-lightning-motorcycles/

Well ... correct you are
the guy's a flake
 
A 2009 computer doodle for an electric motorcycle that never materialized into a real creature.

Screen Shot 2022-09-19 at 5.26.07 PM.pngScreen Shot 2022-09-19 at 5.32.54 PM.pngScreen Shot 2022-09-19 at 5.35.55 PM.png
 
Warren said:
Kraig Shultz was hoping to do something similar, some years ago. Not enough interest.

http://www.schultzengineering.us/delta-x2-1.htm

To paraphrase you: You can drag a horse's ass to water, but it is the wrong end for drinking. :wink:

Yep ... I'm familiar with his work. Mostly thru keeping an eye on the Craig Vetter Fuel Economy Challenge over the years.
The shapes, overall layout aren't much different to the human powered streamliners I was creating, riding, racing 20 ~ 30 years earlier.
Hopefully SaladFish is gleaning some useful insight from the old timers.
These type endeavors should be approached like art.
Do it to satisfy your own personal needs and curiosity not to sell to others.
Something to consider with these projects is the attention they create.
People will follow, pull you over, approach in all manners / ways to question what and why.
At times, it can be a frustration.
 
PaPaSteve said:
The shapes, overall layout aren't much different to the human powered streamliners I was creating, riding, racing 20 ~ 30 years earlier.

Do it to satisfy your own personal needs and curiosity not to sell to others.
Something to consider with these projects is the attention they create.
People will follow, pull you over, approach in all manners / ways to question what and why.
At times, it can be a frustration.

Back in the 1995, I put dual 559-25 wheels/tires on my wife's V-Rex. That bike was too short. I was a big proponent of big wheel, MWB bikes, which eventually dominated for awhile. But I became friends with a guy with a dual 406-32 Pursuit. That bike, with the Zipper? up front, was really fast.

My favorite Pursuit is Mr. Bill's. His was the inspiration for me going electric.

https://mrbill.homeip.net/albums/powerPursuitBuild/index.html

Yeah. I remember a guy in a yellow Mustang following me on my Rowfiets, for about 10 miles, near Peaks of Otter. I finally pulled into an overlook, and he jumped out all excited. I only needed about a thousand more like him. :lol:
 
I find that the more I learn from reading about people's experiences the less I have to learn from my own attempts. This thread has been very interesting. I didn't know Kraig Shultz tried to market a feet foreword motorcycle.

I was actually wondering how to start a vehicle manufacturing business in order to produce a limited run of a vehicle before succumbing to better judgement.

I might not be able to avoid engineering compliance certification by using an existing scooter because of the change in seating position (I've sent an email to confirm). A change to electric will also require certification (CVT scooters are actually pretty inefficient compared to my current motorcycle).

I'm going to do some more pondering on this idea, find out what the engineers will let me do.

Do it to satisfy your own personal needs and curiosity not to sell to others.
Something to consider with these projects is the attention they create.

I think that's what it will come down to. To satisfy this itch to create something better something really awesome would be the goal.
 
A couple gotchas to consider ...
When buying recumbent bicycle manufactures liability insurance it was a confusing experience.
Because sales volumes were so low there were no risk studies to gauge how high a risk recumbents actually are.
So the rates were based on the highest risk ... mountain bikes.
For your own personal on the road insurance for an unusual build it can turn into a bit of a chase to find a company willing to write a policy.
 
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