Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.
User avatar
jonescg   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3605
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by jonescg » Dec 14 2009 9:29pm

OK guys and girls,

I'm about to buy a controller. I want the SMOOTHEST throttle response available, as this is going to be a track bike. Steve of Jozzbikes fame has told me that Kelly offers a good controller with very nice regen (providing a compression braking sensation). As I'm running two Agnis in both series and parallel (I'm told the switching makes a big difference, almost like a two speed box) it's going to be drawing a lot of amps, so at least 600 A worth of controller would be great.

Any suggestions, or advice?

Cheers,
CHRIS

User avatar
Malcolm   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 755
Joined: Jan 26 2007 9:35am
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, UK

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by Malcolm » Dec 15 2009 3:51am

Cedric Lynch reckons the Brusa controller gives the best (smoothest) control response, but they're only available to order and have a very basic feature set. Personally I'd go with the Kelly controller, as Jozzer suggests, from what I've heard they're a close second.

I have an Alltrax myself (bought pre-Kelly), but wouldn't recommend it for a motorcycle as the response is very twitchy.

User avatar
Jay64   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1640
Joined: Nov 16 2007 9:03pm
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
Contact:

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by Jay64 » Dec 17 2009 9:06am

Sorry about not getting back about the sprockets. I've been off for a while. Honestly, I forget where I got them from, but they were pretty damn cheap. I think about $20. I will check with my business partner and see if she has the records of where we got them.
Agni suggested to me that I use the Kelly also. I have a smaller kelly controller that I use on my 48v setup. It seems pretty good. The power of the bike is a little lacking, so the take off is pretty weak (from my ICE perspective) but the response of the throttle itself seems spot on.
Johnson64.Com "The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones."
EV Bikes:
'13 Zero S 11.4kwh.
GS500, ME0913, Sevcon Size 6 Controller, 90v40ah Lipo, GSXR suspension..
'87 Hurricane 600, ME0709, 48v/50a SLA, Kelly KD72400, Magura Throttle, High Current Cycle Analyst.
http://www.evalbum.com/2275
Raleigh beach cruiser: 9C rear hub, stock controller, 48v10ah lithium, Cycle Analyst.
Phat Chopper: 9C front hub, stock controller, 48v12ah a123s, Cycle Analyst.

User avatar
jonescg   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3605
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by jonescg » Dec 17 2009 9:28pm

Cheers, it would be great to know - I'll probably need to experiment with different ratios, but I'm currently starting with a 14/47 ratio for now (possibly a bit tall). When you find them, ask them if they do metric bores - most of the US sites I've looked at don't even know what a milimetre is!

Re controllers, Steve recently informed me that 600 A is not enough! Especially if running the motors in series (half volts, twice current). I'm considering a series parallel switching system, so as to improve the regen characteristics, and to get a bit more poke off the line. Might be a good idea to use series for the Green light, and parallel for every lap there after :D

Oh, and I picked up my forks from the shop - Very nice! Although the rebound is a bit slow. Might need more gas in the shocks...

User avatar
Malcolm   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 755
Joined: Jan 26 2007 9:35am
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, UK

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by Malcolm » Dec 18 2009 3:44am

jonescg wrote:Steve recently informed me that 600 A is not enough!
Yes, by all accounts the Kelly controllers are rated very optimistically, so you need to give yourself plenty of headroom when you make your choice.

Edit: Kelly also do a waterproof option for a little extra, which would probably be a good idea on a bike :)

User avatar
jonescg   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3605
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by jonescg » Dec 19 2009 8:43am

She looks like a bike again!

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

I hope to get the motor mounts made soon, then the fun begins :D

User avatar
pgt400   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 316
Joined: Jul 01 2008 9:06pm
Location: New Jersey,USA

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by pgt400 » Dec 21 2009 1:57pm

This is about to get real cool.....
03' Ninja EX250, Agni #95 reinforced, 25S1P 40ah CALB Lifepo4, Mini-BMS.
05' Mongoose 20" BMX, Golden Hub Motor, 48 volts @ 9ah, A123's, Signalab BMS.
http://www.evalbum.com/1955
http://www.evalbum.com/3337

User avatar
Jay64   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1640
Joined: Nov 16 2007 9:03pm
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
Contact:

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by Jay64 » Dec 21 2009 6:01pm

I got the sprockets from https://www.surpluscenter.com/home.asp? ... 1967%C2%A0. They had a sprocket that fit right on. I belive it was a 19mm bore.
Johnson64.Com "The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones."
EV Bikes:
'13 Zero S 11.4kwh.
GS500, ME0913, Sevcon Size 6 Controller, 90v40ah Lipo, GSXR suspension..
'87 Hurricane 600, ME0709, 48v/50a SLA, Kelly KD72400, Magura Throttle, High Current Cycle Analyst.
http://www.evalbum.com/2275
Raleigh beach cruiser: 9C rear hub, stock controller, 48v10ah lithium, Cycle Analyst.
Phat Chopper: 9C front hub, stock controller, 48v12ah a123s, Cycle Analyst.

User avatar
pgt400   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 316
Joined: Jul 01 2008 9:06pm
Location: New Jersey,USA

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by pgt400 » Dec 21 2009 8:13pm

Jay64 wrote:I got the sprockets from https://www.surpluscenter.com/home.asp? ... 1967%C2%A0. They had a sprocket that fit right on. I belive it was a 19mm bore.
They have 3/4 which is close but a couple thou off 19mm. Jay, where have you been? Last I heard from you you had 4-5 projects going, a couple Agni's and a load of Headways??
03' Ninja EX250, Agni #95 reinforced, 25S1P 40ah CALB Lifepo4, Mini-BMS.
05' Mongoose 20" BMX, Golden Hub Motor, 48 volts @ 9ah, A123's, Signalab BMS.
http://www.evalbum.com/1955
http://www.evalbum.com/3337

User avatar
jonescg   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3605
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by jonescg » Dec 21 2009 9:23pm

Yeah, I've searched this website top to bottom and they don't have a single sprocket in metric :mad: I think it might be easier to get lathe and make your own :(

User avatar
kadir   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 38
Joined: May 22 2009 12:56pm

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by kadir » Jan 09 2010 12:39am

jonescg wrote:OK guys and girls,

I'm about to buy a controller. I want the SMOOTHEST throttle response available, as this is going to be a track bike. Steve of Jozzbikes fame has told me that Kelly offers a good controller with very nice regen (providing a compression braking sensation). As I'm running two Agnis in both series and parallel (I'm told the switching makes a big difference, almost like a two speed box) it's going to be drawing a lot of amps, so at least 600 A worth of controller would be great.

Any suggestions, or advice?

Cheers,
CHRIS
I still dont understand how the parallel series switching works..

Just say, if we have a controller that can deliver 600Amps Continuous and 1200Amps burst kelly(KDH12121B ) at 72V (26S lipo under load)..

during Parallel connection, Each motor sips 300 Amps.. But gets the 72V at the terminal (minus controller Vdrop)..

But at series, they get half the voltage (if they have equal resistance), but 600Amps.. So twice the torque, but the same Power.. But how long will the motor sustain 600Amps?

If you can supply each motor with 600Amps and at 72V(twice the torque, twice the power output).. with seperate controllers.. Then why bother parallel-series switching?

But I can be also wrong :(! If someone can explain, would be very helpful..

I emailed Steve once, he told me at Parallel Connection they get a speed Boost.. I still didnt get what he meant..

--Fayaz Kadir
WEBSITES:
http://fayazkadir.com
http://ubcecc.com/blog
http://www.facebook.com/fayazkadir

Trek Full Suspension + Xtracycle Family Van kit + 4kW of 5304Rear = Pure Awesomenness
Dual 5303 on 26' with 72V 20Ah LiMn Pack and Dual Controllers 18Fet Infineon

WORK IN PROGRESS:
E-Porsche 944 (~30% Done)
E-Kawasaki 600R (10%)
E-Beetle (98% done)

User avatar
jonescg   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3605
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by jonescg » Jan 09 2010 8:56pm

Yeah, I've got to admit, I don't fully get it. But my grade 12 understanding of physics is as follows :)

Assuming 96V, to run the motors in series would mean each motor gets half voltage, 48V each (give or take) but draw full current. Switching to parallel motors, means both motors get full voltage (speed) but half the current. Power consumption is effectively the same. Steve likened it to a Harley Davidson for first gear, and a GSXR for second gear. Ultimately it makes it more smooth in the lower rpm range, and quicker take-offs.

I just had an expensive Christmas holiday (missed a flight, so I had to buy another at last minute :x ) So the controller can wait a while...

User avatar
Malcolm   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 755
Joined: Jan 26 2007 9:35am
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, UK

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by Malcolm » Jan 10 2010 5:03am

If you choose a controller that can supply sufficient current for both motors in parallel (around 800A for a minute or so) there is no need for series-parallel switching. You can just wire the motors permanently in parallel, then you have the best of both worlds without the complication of switching. Of course your choice of controllers is then limited, as few can supply that high a current for a minute or so. A Zilla 1k or a Soliton would work, but then you need water cooling.

From what I've heard the current ratings of the Kelly controllers are very optimistic, so if you're planning to use one (or two) I would check which model others are using in a similar application.

User avatar
kadir   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 38
Joined: May 22 2009 12:56pm

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by kadir » Jan 11 2010 4:11pm

I actually started converting a Motorbike, Using two Agni's..

Then my Idea's got a little diverted.. I got hold of a old (2008) SAE formula Frame.. Right now I am just re-enforcing it to take the extra weight..I am not doing it physically right now, But I am drawing up the whole thing on CATIA and Inventor 10.

I have access to 6 Agni's 8) , on a frame(including wheels, seats and everything; except the engine,transmission, and fuel tank bits) that Weighs less than 400Lbs , adding 250Lbs of stuff

I came out with figures of around 650HP/tonne of body weight.. and thats a lot :P !!!

My main aim is to work on the Electronic Traction control on both the Car, and Motorbike..

The motorbike is not actually going to be traction control, basically the aim is to have a load sensor on the front wheel.. When the front wheel gets too light(lower than a certain threshold for a certain period of time), the power to the motor is lowered automatically, so that the bike doesnt flip.. thats it.

My inspiration for the love behind Electronic Traction control was this Top Gear Video.. I wish it was in HiDef :(!




The car's traction control is aimed to provide stability on slippery Surfaces, and also Incorporate a bit of ABS.. and also by looking at the steering angle, the speed difference among the wheels, create a active differential..

Most EV cars just use the existing differential (if it is RWD).. But I Planned to have seperate motors for each wheel..

The motors re not going to sit on wheel (unsprung mass), but rather in the Chassis just like other EV. and also BANG on in the middle..

I am aiming for 33% power in front, and 66% in the rear wheels..

I will have a graduate student who will be assisting me in the work..

Right now I m in Vancouver for the Olympics.. I wont be back home until May.. So the physical work wont start happenning till May.. But I guess, all the ordering of the motors, sprockets, chains, CV joints, controllers should be ordered before May '10

I will be posting videos giving updates on the work .. thats the plan for now
WEBSITES:
http://fayazkadir.com
http://ubcecc.com/blog
http://www.facebook.com/fayazkadir

Trek Full Suspension + Xtracycle Family Van kit + 4kW of 5304Rear = Pure Awesomenness
Dual 5303 on 26' with 72V 20Ah LiMn Pack and Dual Controllers 18Fet Infineon

WORK IN PROGRESS:
E-Porsche 944 (~30% Done)
E-Kawasaki 600R (10%)
E-Beetle (98% done)

User avatar
kadir   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 38
Joined: May 22 2009 12:56pm

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by kadir » Jan 11 2010 7:27pm

Malcolm wrote:If you choose a controller that can supply sufficient current for both motors in parallel (around 800A for a minute or so) there is no need for series-parallel switching. You can just wire the motors permanently in parallel, then you have the best of both worlds without the complication of switching. Of course your choice of controllers is then limited, as few can supply that high a current for a minute or so. A Zilla 1k or a Soliton would work, but then you need water cooling.

From what I've heard the current ratings of the Kelly controllers are very optimistic, so if you're planning to use one (or two) I would check which model others are using in a similar application.

I think Parallel-Series switching will have a good effect..

Say we provide 96V,
Normally in Kelly COntrollers, they limit the Amps by PWM.. The terminal voltage remains the same(96V)..
So basically, to have twice the torque, you need twice the Amps(say instead of 100Amps, now you need 200Amps).. So twice the power consumption.. (100Amps per motor)

In series, you now have (theoretically) half the amount of voltage per motor, but Twice the current flowing through each one(eventhough the terminal voltage is the same 96V, and same 100Amps on main terminal)..

So basically what we have is twice the torque without increasing power consumption..

But MY QUESTION iS, over here we are comparing ICE (internal Combustion Engines) to Electric motors..

For Combustion Engine, most power is where there is the most HP (torque*engine Rpm)..
But for a electric motor, the HP*.746=POWER(kw)..

For a object to accelerate, it needs to gain kinetic energy( 0.5*m*v^2 ).. so no matter what the torque is (eg. 1000Nm of torque) we might never accelerate much if the PoWER (kw) is limited...And it is also true tht if the load is too great for the motor, the motor might not even turn; SO torque is also important.. But for Accelerating, what is MORE important?
Motorcycle engines generally produce less Torque, but due to their IMMENSE RPM range, they manage to generate more HP, and also thus accelerate faster..


So does this mean that ACCELERATION is PROPORTIONAL to the driving power on the motor? :|

Or am I somewhere Conceptually wrong? Thats what I was taught in my highschool :cry:

Now I wish I studied a little harder in Highschool.. :roll:
WEBSITES:
http://fayazkadir.com
http://ubcecc.com/blog
http://www.facebook.com/fayazkadir

Trek Full Suspension + Xtracycle Family Van kit + 4kW of 5304Rear = Pure Awesomenness
Dual 5303 on 26' with 72V 20Ah LiMn Pack and Dual Controllers 18Fet Infineon

WORK IN PROGRESS:
E-Porsche 944 (~30% Done)
E-Kawasaki 600R (10%)
E-Beetle (98% done)

User avatar
jonescg   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3605
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by jonescg » Jan 11 2010 9:54pm

I wouldn't bother with traction control on EV's, personally. I think they are already pretty sensitive to the ground; it might only add weight and complexity.

Anyway, back to my bike :D
I have asked the Design School at UWA to help me come up with a good fairing design for the RG. I really like the race trim of yesteryear... If I can find a way of melding 1985 with 2010, I will have a good looking bike that people will want to sponsor!

Image

User avatar
AussieJester   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 8736
Joined: Mar 11 2008 3:33am
Location: Perth Western Australia

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by AussieJester » Jan 11 2010 10:01pm

If you go with a custom fiberglass fairing i know a great supplier for the glass and resin
in Belmont, "Fiberglass and Resin Sales" (can dig up exact address if needed?)
....first road on the left after the Leech Hwy/Welshpool road lights...
very helpful old fella in there that knows his stuff too, IIRC his name
is Charlie, his in a wheelchair so easy to spot haha...They sell
carbon fiber also..

KiM

User avatar
jonescg   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3605
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by jonescg » Jan 14 2010 4:31am

1200 Amp kelly controller on it's way to my door :D
http://www.newkellycontroller.com/produ ... 21e6134231

I also bought a voltmeter, throttle kit and the appropriate J1 and J2 cables. Getting there!

User avatar
jonescg   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3605
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by jonescg » Jan 17 2010 12:18am

Working out the motor mounts. I don't have much room for attachment points, but I think I'll be right. Steel will be cheaper, but aluminium will be lighter, and less likely to interfere with the aluminium frame. I'll get a couple of quotes next week.

Image
Image
Image

User avatar
Jay64   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1640
Joined: Nov 16 2007 9:03pm
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
Contact:

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by Jay64 » Jan 17 2010 10:31pm

Sorry bout that guys, I had my business partner tell me that is where we got the sprockets from. Apparently that was where we got the sprockets for the Mars motor. I will have it re checked.

I had started doing a lot of my builds/learning with steel to save money, and then when I decided to break down and buy some aluminum, it was actually WAAAAY cheaper then the steel. I was kinda upset of the price I was paying on steel.

For Combustion Engine, most power is where there is the most HP (torque*engine Rpm)..
I think that kinda depends on how you define power. Are you talking all out top speed, or "thrust"? On an ICE motorcycle, if you are in 5th gear and the bike starts doing a power wheelie, a lot of people naturally shift to 6th in order to bring the hp down. But in reality you are putting the bike back into its stronger torque curve which will increase the upward movement of the front wheel.
Also, I don't know if a load sensor on the front wheel of a high hp motorcycle would be that effective. I would think that a high powered bike, the front wheel would be coming off the ground quite often. The wheel coming off the ground isn't a problem. You can drive incredibly hard with the wheel off the ground. But you just don't want the wheel to go too high.
One "poor man's" traction control that we started using with the ICE race bikes was to have a very slight interupt built in to the horn button. It would give the bike the slightest electrical interupt to give the weight of the bike a chance to start pushing back down without really effecting the drive. I also found that I could use that when the back wheel would start spinning out on hard acceleration out of a turn to keep it from getting to the high side point.
Johnson64.Com "The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones."
EV Bikes:
'13 Zero S 11.4kwh.
GS500, ME0913, Sevcon Size 6 Controller, 90v40ah Lipo, GSXR suspension..
'87 Hurricane 600, ME0709, 48v/50a SLA, Kelly KD72400, Magura Throttle, High Current Cycle Analyst.
http://www.evalbum.com/2275
Raleigh beach cruiser: 9C rear hub, stock controller, 48v10ah lithium, Cycle Analyst.
Phat Chopper: 9C front hub, stock controller, 48v12ah a123s, Cycle Analyst.

User avatar
jonescg   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3605
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by jonescg » Jan 17 2010 10:45pm

I have discovered 8 mm plate aluminium is $450 per square metre. Not sure what steel is, but steel is a bit stronger.

Anyway, here is the idea I have for mounting the motors. There is a 440 mm long 30x30mm square tube which supports the motors and serves as an attachement point for my motor protectors.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
CHRIS
Attachments
plans 002 sml.jpg
Click for more detail
plans 003 sml.jpg
Front view
plans 006 sml.jpg

User avatar
jonescg   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3605
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by jonescg » Jan 20 2010 1:57am

Well there goes half of my workday chasing up engineering firms to do my laser cutting and welding :) But all good:

I have Goodwill engineering in Malaga doing the welding, and Action Laser Cutting in Bayswater doing my cutting. I decided to go for 8 mm aluminium for the light-weight factor, and it's probably a bit cheaper. The plans are otherwise the same. I'm using solid 16 mm aluminium bar to join the two motor mounts at 12, 3 and 6 o'clock, with 30 mm x 30 mm x 3 mm aluminium square tube to sit at 7 o'clock. This will be the main attachment point to the frame, via tabs either side of the motorcycle frame, and a bolt to clamp it nice and firm. I'd rather not drill into the frame as it's pretty light, but maybe this is not such an issue :|

I also got All-Bend in Wangara to make some 20 mm protective crash bars to come out from the sides of the frame - one on the bikes left hand side to protect the Agni motor, and one on the right hand side to protect the counter-balancing auxillary batteries. My controller arrived from Kelly on Monday, and I figure it will fit perfectly on the back behind the seat. Just have to run a bit more cable down to the motors and batteries.

Coming together :D :D :D

User avatar
AussieJester   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 8736
Joined: Mar 11 2008 3:33am
Location: Perth Western Australia

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by AussieJester » Jan 20 2010 2:07am

jonescg wrote: Action Laser Cutting in Bayswater doing my cutting.
If you dont mind me asking what do they charge for the cutting the plates out? Is it a 'job by job' quote is it and do you have to supply the DXF file or just the drawing?

KiM

User avatar
jonescg   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3605
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by jonescg » Jan 20 2010 3:15am

Don't know about the quote till tomorrow morning, but I'm guessing there will be about $450 worth of plate ally, and maybe a couple of hundred bucks worth of labour :confused: The crash protector material is hell cheap, as always the labour will add up. I hope the whole lot will be under $600.

User avatar
jonescg   1.21 GW

1.21 GW
Posts: 3605
Joined: Aug 07 2009 9:22pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Suzuki RG250F Gamma conversion

Post by jonescg » Jan 20 2010 8:40pm

F'N Stoked!

The materials and laser cutting will come to $128! That's awesome!

Post Reply