lit motors c-1

sk8norcal

sk8norcal

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http://litmotors.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/LitMotors

Lit Motors CEO Daniel Kim wants to reinvent the motorcycle as we know it today. His idea? To design and manufacture a fully enclosed, two-wheeled motorcycle that runs purely on electric. SmartPlanet gets an exclusive first look at the C1-concept vehicle and its patented gyroscopic stability technology that helps prevent it from tipping over.
Click to expand...

see also twilltech and thrustcycle,
http://tiltingvehicles.blogspot.com/2011/06/self-balance-2-wheelers.html

http://vimeo.com/11374707

[youtube]Z0m-cUxMcJw[/youtube]
 
fun little vehicle...

[youtube]Z0m-cUxMcJw[/youtube]
 
Woow!
 
ya, huh, lol. it reminds of a rig i saw in popular mechanics or something similar, a couple decades ago.

100hp seems a little high, and 150 mi range is gunna take a pretty good battery, but if you put it down low, you should get some pretty good handling. iirc, the gyro in the old one only needed a 20 lb flywheel, and about 1 hp to do its job. i'm pretty skeptical about the knock over prevention (all their tests look like they're on really low friction surfaces), but i love the idea for maybe taking care of crosswind stability. i think if you ran ICE, it'd rule the craig vetter challenge. my guestimate so far is that you could do 60 on around 3600 watts, or about 5 hp. (that's with a 600 lb vehicle weight, 800 gross, 12 sq ft frontal area, a Cd of .2, and a rolling resistance of .01). if you narrow it up a little, and fishtail it, i bet you knock it down to around 2700 watts. i'd love to see this done to a recumbent.
 
My concern would be the parasitic losses to maintain the balance. Other than that – the developer seems like a sharp cookie with a clever idea. I applaud the driver protection; nice touch.

~KF

ADDENDUM: Looks like this was originally posted here.
 
If all of his claims prove to be true when it comes to selling time. I think he will do pretty well.
 
http://www.aqpl43.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/TRANSPORT/gyrocars/gyrocar.htm


shilov0.jpg
 
In Jr College I built this:
I call it the MotoLuge.

015p1_xlg.jpg


I took the seating of a sports car (hand shifter, foot accelerator, foot brake, and foot clutch) and combined it with a motorcycle.
It was a blast to build, but very strange indeed.

First time I test-drove it (in a school parking lot)
I almost ran it into a pole when I lifted the "landing gear".

Second time I test-drove it (this time in the schools grass field)
I got fairly confident on it then dumped it onto its side.

Third time I rode it was for its "unveiling", in which I had a whole abandoned runway to ride on.
I was showing off and hitting 85 mph speeds, and doing figure 8 turns.

It's VERY tricky to ride a 2 wheeled vehicle with a steering wheel.
The reason:

When the landing gear is down, the vehicle steers normally.
As soon as the landing gear goes up,
you have to "counter-steer" just like on a motorcycle.
You might not notice it on a motorcycle, but when you turn right, you are actually turning the handle-bars left.
Anyone that doesn't believe me should try riding the MotoLuge. haha. Turn the wheel right, and you go left.

The MotoLuge is sitting in my dad's garage. I ant to get it out into an open parking lot one last time before cutting it up.
It was a great learning experience, but 2-wheeled vehicles w/ steering wheels are not meant for the road.


Lets just say I learned why 2 wheeled vehicles shouldn't have steering wheels.
 
Miles said:
Interesting point. With gyro stabilisation though, I would expect it to behave more like a 3 or 4 wheeled vehicle....
Click to expand...
If this vehicle is expected to lean in turns (like it shows in the videos computer animation) then "counter-steering" seems necessary and I don't think using a steering wheel would be desirable. If the vehicles gyroscope is constantly running and this thing is meant to take turns without leaning, then I agree with the use of a steering wheel. I am having a hard time understanding how a gyroscope could be constantly running and still allow a vehicle to lean. *perhaps the gyroscope itself "leans" relative to the vehicle in turns? ) I would have guessed the gyroscope to be for low-speeds only, in order to eliminate the need for "landing gear", but in the above video they show the gyroscope used in a simulated car-crash to keep the vehicle upright. So unless that gyroscope kicks on in a millisecond, I'd say the designer is having it run all the time, In which case I'm still confused as to how it leans in turns.
 
Miles said:
See the animation at 0.35

[youtube]OKvoAplbnxc[/youtube]

Also:
http://vimeo.com/user1032960/videos/sort:date
Click to expand...

Good find.
"feet down" tells me the gyroscope action is only for slow-speeds.
In which case I still feel : "been there, done that, ...doesn't work". ...regarding the steering wheel.
EDIT: Thanks for the youtube link, I sent the designer a private message regarding my concerns .
 
I just hope they are putting as much effort into actually producing this vehicle, as they are in producing neat video animations.
why dont they have a working prototype ?

EBJ said:
You might not notice it on a motorcycle, but when you turn right, you are actually turning the handle-bars left.
.
Click to expand...
:shock: sorry, but i just dont see how you get that idea ?? :?:
 
Hillhater said:
I just hope they are putting as much effort into actually producing this vehicle, as they are in producing neat video animations.
why dont they have a working prototype ?

EBJ said:
You might not notice it on a motorcycle, but when you turn right, you are actually turning the handle-bars left.
.
Click to expand...
:shock: sorry, but i just dont see how you get that idea ?? :?:
Click to expand...

It's true. Try riding fast enough that you can ride hands off, then gently push one handlebar forward. The bike will turn in that direction. That's why experienced cyclists often have trouble the first time they try to ride an upright trike. Always fun to watch at a cycle rally! :twisted:

As for the C1, I think the feet are only for parking (so the gyros can spin down and rest). Once they are doing their thing, the feet are raised. I also think the gyros are active all the time the C1 is in motion, and it will naturally steer like a car and lean like a bike. When turning you are creating an acceleration towards the centre of the turn. Spin a top and place it your hand. If you begin to move your hand horizontally, the top will lean in that direction to maintain balance. riding a bike is more like balancing a broomstick on your hand: if you want to go left you first have to move your hand right to induce the lean.

I think. :?
 
EBJ don't cut up your creation! Offer to sell it to the LIT designer along with your services as a consultant.

You have been there and done it. Your experience is priceless!
 
Hillhater said:
EBJ said:
You might not notice it on a motorcycle, but when you turn right, you are actually turning the handle-bars left.
.
Click to expand...
:shock: sorry, but i just dont see how you get that idea ?? :?:
Click to expand...


This is the reason dirtbike and bicycle riders crash superbikes. :)

On a bicycle, you turn the bars the direction you wish to go and lean your body to shift weight, until higher speeds, somewhere around 45mph or so you start to switch to counter steer (it depends on tire crown profile and wheel moment of inertia).

On a superbike, above ~20mph, you are always turning the bars the opposite direction of the path you wish to travel, which causes the bike to lay into the turn, and the profile of the tire causes the bike to turn, despite the bars being turned opposite to the direction you wish to be turning.

It is an entirely different experience than a person is used to experiencing while riding. Once mastered, all other types of riding feel clumsy in comparison to counter-steer/lean control.

As an example, my bike feels safer and easier to ride and carve on at 80mph than it does at 20mph. Strong enough gyro forces that I can counter-steer turn, which means no clumsy leaning the body to lean the bike is needed. A superbike below 20mph feels like an awkward balancing act to ride, get it up to 100mph and it feels as stable as a house, you can do a hand-stand on the fuel tank and the bike tracks as smooth and steady as can be while your body is jerking around off balance all over the place.
 
bigmoose said:
EBJ don't cut up your creation! Offer to sell it to the LIT designer along with your services as a consultant.

You have been there and done it. Your experience is priceless!
Click to expand...

Good idea.
 
My buddy (a bmx rider) and I (a motorcycle rider) have had this debate many times. I think what we both agree on is the weight difference in the two vehicles makes a difference in how much "counter-steering" you are doing and "how" you are counter-steering.

On a bicycle, you are leaning the bike into a turn (unknowingly sometimes) with your body, you then have to correct for it with the handle-bars. So essentially you are counter-steering with your body and then correcting for it with the handle-bars. So it seems counter-steering doesn't exist. But if you were to afix a piece of plywood to the frame, then attach your back ridgedly to it, you would then be forced to "counter-steer" with the handle-bars. It would be such a minimal amount of counter steering (due to the light-weight of a bicycle) that you might not notice it.

Here is what I know from experience with the MotoLuge:
(When riding the MotoLuge ---> Regardless of what speed you are going (5 MPH, or 85 MPH) you MUST turn the opposite direction you intend to go in order to get the vehicle to steer correctly. Once the vehicle is "pitched" into the turn (by counter-steering) you can start to (very slowly) correcting for it by turning into the turn. Once you start turning into the turn, the vehicle begins to wright itself, but it also begins to "Turn". In other words: You are constantly in the fine balance act of turning the desired direction and keeping the vehicle leaned enough to do so. Counter-steering alone will get you no where if you dont start to slowly correct for it.
Example: If the motorluge steering wheel only allowed me to turn it one direction, I wouldn't be able to turn any direction at all. (I'd be able to lean the bike over and flop, but not turn).

The MotoLuge is an extreme case: It has a steering wheel, and the rider is in a recumbent-position close to the ground and it's very heavy. It's essentially the opposite of a typical bicycle.

Here is what I know from experience on my motorcycle:
After realizing the importance of counter-steering on my MotoLuge I instantly hopped back onto my motorcycle to test the theory. It turns out that on a motorcycle, regardless of what speed you are going (5 MPH, or 85 MPH) you are counter-steering. If you keep your riding position straight and you try to turn in the desired direction on a motorcycle it will scare the crap out of you because you will be going the opposite direction in no-time. haha. Go out and try it if you don't believe me. It might even work on a bicycle if you can keep your body straight enough, or if you have a heavy enough bicycle that your weight doesn't play a huge factor in leaning it.

For LFP:

You might find it interesting that a motorcycle will not turn no matter how much it is "leaned" unless it is actually "steered" with the handle-bars.
Proof:
The "No B.S. Bike" with two sets of handle-bars, one set ridged and mounted to the frame, the other set totally normal.
Grap the ridged-mounted bars and try with all your might to turn the motorcycle and it isn't possible.
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

Cracks me up someone built such a contraption just to "prove" you can't turn a motorcycle with just "body-lean"
 
liveforphysics said:
This is the reason dirtbike and bicycle riders crash superbikes. :)

On a bicycle, you turn the bars the direction you wish to go and lean your body to shift weight, until higher speeds, somewhere around 45mph or so you start to switch to counter steer (it depends on tire crown profile and wheel moment of inertia).

On a superbike, above ~20mph, you are always turning the bars the opposite direction of the path you wish to travel, which causes the bike to lay into the turn, and the profile of the tire causes the bike to turn, despite the bars being turned opposite to the direction you wish to be turning.

As an example, my bike feels safer and easier to ride and carve on at 80mph than it does at 20mph. Strong enough gyro forces that I can counter-steer turn, which means no clumsy leaning the body to lean the bike is needed. A superbike below 20mph feels like an awkward balancing act to ride, get it up to 100mph and it feels as stable as a house
Click to expand...

i get the impression that countersteer induces lean (as opposed to the above mentioned body shifting). i also get the impression that this is due to gyroscopic forces of the wheels themselves, (this could explain the stable as a house thing), although i'm perplexed as to why when the follow steer happens the bike doesn't right itself, is it just a timing thing?. but if the gyros are are tilted on a gimbal, seems like it should result in some kind of similarly induced lean, and the steering wheel, or whatever one dimensional rotating device you put on it (along with gyros and a processor, sensing speed, angles, and maybe lateral forces) is killing two birds with one stone, as in, no more user induced lean, whether it be weight shift or countersteer.

KF, in the early gyrocar, it is said to have had 80 hp, and used less than 1% (600 watts?) to maintain the gyro. and that was for a "car", that was probably about 2000 lbs all up, and capable of 125 mph. methinks if you divide the weight by 4, and the speed by 2, you'd need a much less 'thirsty' set of gyros (say maybe 75 watts? if it's a linear relationship with weight and speed). now go to lightweight recumbent, thin velo, and 30 mph, that might cost you at about 20 watts methinks. anyways, me, i'm not thinking about the tiny amount of power i'm losing by having gyros, i'm thinking about the HUGE amounts of power i'm saving (factor of 3 or 4 kinda thing), by it affording me an enclosed cabin, and the reduction in Cd that that affords. overall, my guess is about 1/3 the total consumption. imagine sticking them on a powered varna, yikes.
 
ptd said:
i get the impression that countersteer induces lean (as opposed to the above mentioned body shifting). i also get the impression that this is due to gyroscopic forces of the wheels themselves, (this could explain the stable as a house thing), although i'm perplexed as to why when the follow steer happens the bike doesn't right itself, is it just a timing thing?.
Click to expand...

I think you got it all correct. Countersteer is only used to induce lean, and the motorcycle wheels acting as gyros is likley what makes "body-lean" so impossible on a motorcycle. On a light-weight bicycle, body lean seems to substitute counter-steering (up until a certain speed as LFP explained).

When the follow steer happens the bike DOES want to right itself. You can really feel it when turning with a steering wheel. The vehicle also wants to right itself when you apply the brakes. (which saved my ass the first time , when I was sure I was "going down" I slammed on the brakes, and it righted the vehicle just long enough for me to get the landing-gear down)
 
Meanwhile, back to the C1..... No one has commented on my suggestion of active control over the gyros (linked to the steering). Wouldn't that explain everything they demonstrate in the animations? It would also mean it steered like a 3/4 wheeled vehicle....
 
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