Dual sport bike using a Hubmonster motor Video pg3

Been toying with the idea of doing a full road legal motorbike for a while. Since i finally managed to sell the Green-monster E-bike i decided it was time to make it into a real thing. I started looking around for a light weight sports bike to convert as i wanted it to be fairly aerodynamic for high speed cruising and the look. Turns out there are quite alot around for a reasonable price but after talking to a friend about motorbikes and racing he gave me another idea.

Flat track motorbike racing.....its simple, light weight, short run times and not a super power hungry racing setup. So i started looking into it and turns out the local Flat track raceway is having problems with the noise the bikes make and has to restrict its operating hours due to noise complaints that have come up from local houses. So may be able to convert a few into electrics, they race from 6yrs and up or some crazy young age

So i now have a bike, its a cheap Chinese dirt bike called a Kinlon amongst other names. Very basic, completely shit engine(11hp) and a ok frame but a bonus its its road registrable so if the flat track plan flops i can register it and sell it later if needed.
The batteries for the Race testing are 20S20AH for HK lipo, for road i will use 7kw of batteries that i am testing atm.
The motor is John from CR's Hubmonster that just arrived. This will be a big test as i have no idea if a hub motor will work in a flat track race scenario. Hopefully it works as this is the easiest option, but going mid-drive is pretty easy after what i learnt doing the mini-monster on my last build. Freaking hard to find dual sport tires for 13" wheels in Aus, have to import them 130-60-13
The controllers are heavily modified 12Fets from Lyen, nice simple and cheap. A pair should be ok for peaks of 20kw, nice and toasty but ok. Will be setup with very small block time and a 1-1.2 battery/phase amp figure to hopefully let them survive better. Hopefully have everything built in a month.

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Maybe just a small suggestion if I may? Have you thought about buying a second hand Suzuki/Honda/Kawasaki/Yamaha 250? Much better quality components and easier to get spares. Just a thought!

It'll be interesting to see how this compares with a zero-no doubt quite a bit cheaper especially down here (but half the power- didn't realise zeros were up to 40kw now!)

Yeah i looked into that, but looking over the frames and rear suspension there was almost nothing between them all. The front suspension will probably be changed to cope with the much smoother surface better so that was not a factor. The main difference is the engine and in this case that means nothing as it will be replaced by the electronics.

In terms of competing with Zeros well that's the next step if needed, would be easy to do, this build is all about cheap plentiful parts and a KISS principle

KISS? oh you are sorely mistaken.... There is nothing kiss about building an emoto!

Well i got bored tonight so i stripped the bike down to give it a good clean and start setting it up for the hub monster.

Started as a nice petrol motorbike


A few hours later and its a bare frame, well bare enough for now. Still want to be able to move it around easily until i can mount the hub-monster.


The hub monster in all its well packaged glory, John really doesn't want the motor damaged. formed Styrofoam and double boxed

And on to the fun part of the build, making everything, then attaching it all to the bike frame so its safe from harm and is not going to fall off I have been working afternoon shifts recently so only had time in the morning to play.

The batterys have been assembled into 4x4 5S blocks with each block in a 50x100mm tube of PVC down pipe that will be mounted in the center of the bike frame. The controllers have had their shunts modded and some light beefing of the traces. The hub monster has been opened and the thermo switch has been replaced with a 10k Thermister. The brakets/torque plates for mounting the hub had been made and installed, the tire is on the hub monster. Its all coming together smoothly. Cept i really have to change the front wheel from 21"to 17 or something, very very comical difference atm

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Visiters all tomorrow but then i should be able to mount the batteries and controllers on Monday to get it all up and running hopefully

Bluefang,

Great idea, flat track racing has gotta be about the easiest racing there would be for a hubbie. With 4-6 laps and no slowing for the curves, you're running at high efficiency the entire time, so it won't even have time to get hot. Once they break ththe rear tire loose for powersliding in the curves, what kind of speed do they spin that rear wheel? I wonder if you have enough voltage at 20s, since mine no loads at about 120kph on 20s. I'm sure having so much more weight in the rear wheel will take some getting used to for a rider, and maybe even a significant change in riding style, but it should definitely work.

Quick work....you're ready for batteries and controllers. The connection box is a nice idea and makes the metal flex tubing look like it belongs.

Can't wait to hear how it does on the track.

John

I like the box. When will you be finished?

this looks like it should be a great build! finally someone else other than john has one of the hubmonsters! i look forward to seeing the progress

jansevr said:

this looks like it should be a great build! finally someone else other than john has one of the hubmonsters! i look forward to seeing the progress

Click to expand...

HillsofValp will be running soon along with more friends from US, Australia and Brazil. I'm just about finished with farting around with the wiring on mine. I got the battery wiring done last night, which was a lot more effort than I dreamed of with 7 separate packs of 20s and 10s including the 20ah of 20c LiNMC that I'm finally testing. Balance taps and paralleling at the cell level really sucks, and I miss my Konions. No more conversions for me, I want to build a proper location for the batteries. At least I got it all hard wired and secured on the bike, and I was all smiles when I checked voltage and the bazillion wires got me to a voltage of 124.5V , so I knew I did it right. 30s should be fun since 20s got me to 105kph on a fresh charge, and Zombiess is confident that his HV24's can do better than the 105A per controller I've been running with my cheapies. As long as the CA3 plays well with the dual controllers, then I'd like to get to where I have 150A-175A peak input to each controller. That should put my cooling approach to the test.

John

just about 22kw of peak power :lol: crazy! im sure the controllers can handle it especially if you were running over 100 amps on the cheap ones. definitely want to see some video!

That is a beautiful and monstrous hubmotor! Fantastic job with the torque plate fitment and mounting and things.

jansevr said:

just about 22kw of peak power :lol: crazy! im sure the controllers can handle it especially if you were running over 100 amps on the cheap ones. definitely want to see some video!

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I'm at 30s not 20s, so it's 33kw not 22kw. I'll be at 22 with initial settings at 100A ea. At 100A at each controller it won't have any more out of the hole than I've been running, but at all points above about 50kph I'll have more acceleration. 15-16kw is noticeably more than it was with a less efficient motor, and I've been at 30kw input with a lower efficiency "tin pot" motor as my factory calls them, so I can only imagine what it will be like with a high efficiency hubbie.

I'm most anxious to see how well controllers really imitate lower voltage by looking at consumption with my typical riding, but with a battery pack with 50% higher voltage. It will be great if consumption stays similar for similar speeds, but still have true highway speed capability. I've always questioned how well controllers really accomplish making the motor "see" a lower voltage, and now that I already have more speed than I use at 20s, I'll be able to look at long term wh/mile at 30s and compare. I've already seen how little big acceleration impacts overall consumption, which was a nice surprise, so hopefully I get another with voltage.

John

Thanks for all the kind words

When i ll be finished to the point its running is probably tomorrow, maybe tonight seeing as the girlfriend has to go home for mothers day. It wont be fully complete and race ready as i will be adding in a proper contactor running off a inertia switch and a pair of emergency off buttons. The track i want to run it at has no idea what safety measures are needed so i am waiting to hear from them what they will require.

In terms of the wheel spin on cornering.......well i have no f'n idea. I think they will be topping out at about 150 wheel spinning max with the petrol bikes as they lower their sprocket counts and the bikes usually run in 2nd or 3rd gears. So hopefully with the top speeds been about 100km/h then on 20S lipo i should be ok with 120km/h for abit of spin. This is part of the reason why i am using cheap 12fets to start with, they should get me to the 20kw peaks but i may have to go for Lyens 18fet highway controller to really bring the bike alive. Atm i want to keep the motor sealed so ~20kw will be as far as i want to go. If someone at the track really wants to play i ll vent one and push it as a mid drive

I'm looking forward to seeing more.
Some interesting non bicycle builds appearing on ES lately.

Has made me start scanning gumtree for a donor...

Muhahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha.....................Its ALIVE

Had some time this arvo to mount the batterys, controller(s) and then figure out how to wire it all. Took abit of work as i could not figure out why i could not find a smooth config, 2 of my hall connections were bad so quickly redid them and it runs as smooth as silk. Setup the CA to read it properly, the CA is reading from a external shunt so its reading correct for both controllers. The batteries are not charged, they are only about 50% and its still doing 125km/h no load so its doing pretty well(assuming its a 10 pole motor).

Its 10pm and i have to work tomorrow morning for a half day so hopefully tomorrow afternoon i ll get it out onto the road with some video of it going properly, gotta also remember to collect some scales to see how much it weights atm. Its pretty heavy but nothing extreme, i can still lift either end easily. I ll charge it tonight and see how it goes

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Outstanding Bluefang. Don't forget to get video right off the bat, since the $200 first prize for first operational hasn't been claimed yet. It looks like you did a perfect job with the motor mount position for the bike to have the right angle.

Get ready for true silence in a hubbie and you don't even need $1k+ worth of Sevcon to do it.

The amazing part is I shipped myself one at the same time as yours, and mine still isn't in CR yet. TNT did a great job for you, making Fedex look bad. Too bad TNT doesn't come here anymore.

John

edit- BTW yes, it's a 10 pole motor (20 mags). It's 24 slots, 12 for each controller.

wouldn't it actually be 44 kw peak? i accidentally did 30x4.1x175 = 21525, but it would be double this, so just under 44kw! you are crazy - also, you think the motor will be able to handle this?!

haha i too have seen how the factory compares their motors to crystalyte or similar and calling them "tin pot" design. it made me laugh my ass off but they definitely prove a point. just looking at the width/the amount of copper etc. i can't wait to get one!

That kinlon is dirt cheap for a new, road legal ADR approved street bike. http://www.kinlon.com.au/
Is the frame an original design or derived from a japanese trail bike?
Either way, good to have all new gear to work with rather than starting with a big parts clean up.

jansevr said:

wouldn't it actually be 44 kw peak? i accidentally did 30x4.1x175 = 21525, but it would be double this, so just under 44kw! you are crazy - also, you think the motor will be able to handle this?!

haha i too have seen how the factory compares their motors to crystalyte or similar and calling them "tin pot" design. it made me laugh my ass off but they definitely prove a point. just looking at the width/the amount of copper etc. i can't wait to get one!

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I'm counting on getting to 150A from each controller. Beyond that would be icing. You're also not considering voltage sag. eg When I hit the other motor with 30kw by sucking 425A out of the battery, the voltage sagged from 82.7V all the way down to 72V. With the higher voltage I won't draw that level of current, so nominal is a good estimate.

The big power numbers are fun to talk about, but whether I can really draw that kind of power is in question.

In comparing to other motors, sure the greater amount of copper is good, but it's really the design and quality of the stator lams that set it apart. That results in the much greater efficiency, and if you make half the heat with roughly the same surface area for heat dissipation, you can run at double the power for the same temperature. The design also results in a nice high Kv, but without ending up with very low inductance that make most big scooter hubbies a nightmare for controllers.

John

Sorry for offtopic.

I want one of those hubmotors
Is there perhaps manufacturers webpage or maybe topic on this forum? To get prices and specifications.

I have 24 A123 20Ah cells...perfect for this motor. Pitbike or supermotard will be such a fun to ride with that setup 8)

Great build, by the way

Tomaj
John in CR is the resident forum vendor for those hubmotors. Just PM him.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=46898
and a couple of short videos with more to come here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=48399&

Before getting all excited, these are scooter hubbies, so that means sticking with the small diameter wheels for best results (like with any hubbie). Also, because you're looking at fixed gearing if you run it in wheel, how hard you can push the motor in stock form depends on your total load. I've tested the motor for 9 months running at 210A peak input with a 74V nominal batter pushing an all up load of about 175-190kg depending on holiday pounds and what I have in my backpack. I can definitely feel the effect of the last 10kg on performance, so I suggest staying with an all up load of under 180kg for running a stock sealed motor in wheel.

What I can't wait for is reports from someone running a significantly lower load than mine. Say a 175lb guy on a 155lb ebike
for an all up load of 150kb would have staggering performance.

John

tomaj said:

Sorry for offtopic.
I want one of those hubmotors
Is there perhaps manufacturers webpage or maybe topic on this forum? To get prices and specifications.
I have 24 A123 20Ah cells...perfect for this motor. Pitbike or supermotard will be such a fun to ride with that setup 8)
Great build, by the way

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Thanks for answers and all additional information.

Racing pitbike-enduro or supermotard use 13inch rear wheel. Total weight of ready to run electric pitbike will be around 60kg+75kg rider= 135kg total....tons of fun

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Currently its weighing in at 50kg over the rear and 39 over the front. I weight 88kg and the bikes only running at 50% due to something been abit off, will fix later tonight but i have to go out atm.