The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.

The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby grindz145 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:43 am

This thread is a continuation (rebirth) of this old thread:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=43620&p=825811&hilit=revival#p825811


The Concept:

Minimalist transportation - We've all been building "ebikes" for a long time now, and for the most part they are using undersized bicycle components, or over-sized motorcycle components. What if there was an option in the middle?

I've come to realize that the motorcycle I've been riding for 6 years now, is ridiculously oversized. It's 700 lbs wet, and while it has been fantastic for continent-crossing adventures, it is absolutely not well suited for everyday life. What I hope to end up with is my personal ideal motorbike for everyday life.

A piece of rolling artwork intended to remind people why it is that we fall in love with these machines.

Specs
<150lbs
>10kW peak
50mph sustained
20mi Range
Onboard charging at 1C
Acceleration : Face Melting
Braking : Brutal
Suspension : Actually designed correctly for the road
Reliable and practical.
The handling and performance of a motorcycle, the dexterity and weight of an ebike.
Rolling Artwork

Components
Frame: Puch Magnum Top-Tank Moped. You bet your ass that the pedals are staying.
Motor: Cromotor V1 No chains, No maintence
Battery: Sony VTC4 Konion. ~2kWh Hot Rod performance. Fast charging capability. Reliable. Bulk-Charge only BMS.
Suspension: Inverted 41mm Fully adjustable Cartridge forks, Air shocks rear
Brakes: Hope Mono M4s (ideally V2s if I can get my hands on them)
Wheels/Tires: MMB JRH rear hoop, 10G spokes, Hutchinson 2.75" front, IRC 3.15" rear
Controller: ? soo many options, Still on the fence
Last edited by grindz145 on Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:16 am, edited 3 times in total. View post history.
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby grindz145 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:57 am

I don't do resizing...
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Last edited by grindz145 on Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby dbaker » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:45 am

I am also interested in your controller choice. 8)
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby grindz145 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:54 pm

dbaker wrote:I am also interested in your controller choice. 8)


Here are the controller options so far, in order:
Sevcon Gen 4 size 2
Lyen 24 FET, modded by myself
Min-E/ Max-E
Sinwave Chinese controller (active thread on ES)

There are tradeoffs for each though... Pretty tough.
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby rjoe » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:13 pm

Where did you find such a nice specimen?

And is that an MB5 front end?
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby grindz145 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:17 pm

rjoe wrote:Where did you find such a nice specimen?

And is that an MB5 front end?


An inverted cartridge fork on an MB5?
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby dbaker » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:20 pm

What does the fork weigh? Do you have a target phase current for the controller? To get the face melting..... :mrgreen:
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby grindz145 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:31 pm

dbaker wrote:What does the fork weigh? Do you have a target phase current for the controller? To get the face melting..... :mrgreen:


Haha, yes, Face-Melting will be around 150-200A Phase peak. This is indeed scientifically documented. Oh P.S. the fork is heavy relative to bicycle stuff. Probably weighs 15 lbs. Weight well spent. This bicycle suspension stuff has to end. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby Chalo » Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:11 am

grindz145 wrote:Oh P.S. the fork is heavy relative to bicycle stuff. Probably weighs 15 lbs. Weight well spent. This bicycle suspension stuff has to end.


Yeah, better to use the kind of suspension this time-proven motorcycle does. First produced in 1958 and still available new today with only minor changes. It operates in the same speed range as e-bikes:
Image
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby veloman » Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:14 am

This should be a blast to corner with the batteries there. That frame has got to weigh very little!

+1 on keeping the pedals. How else will you stay warm up there in NY? :D
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby grindz145 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:20 am

veloman wrote:This should be a blast to corner with the batteries there. That frame has got to weigh very little!

+1 on keeping the pedals. How else will you stay warm up there in NY? :D


Hah! I have yet to determine the function of the pedals. At a minimum, I would like to be able to pedal around slowly without power. This would allow me to take it places where motorcycles would normally be frowned upon. I don't think I'll be pedaling it at speed.
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby Dauntless » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:51 pm

First thing the pedals for are if you just can't get up that hill on the power, you pedal along. A real issue around my neighborhood. The stock gear ratio probably won't be any real help for that.
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby John in CR » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:41 am

Pedals can serve a purpose on bikes with motors. That is having an adjustable place to put your feet. Get tired of one foot forward, then put the other forward. You can also lift the inside pedal on turns instead of scraping a peg. Forget the chain though. Who wants to hear that clicking FW or risk it seizing while riding at 50mph? Why so slow with the 50mph sustained?
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby grindz145 » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:22 pm

Dauntless wrote:First thing the pedals for are if you just can't get up that hill on the power, you pedal along. A real issue around my neighborhood. The stock gear ratio probably won't be any real help for that.


That won't be a problem with 200A phase current.... :)
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby grindz145 » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:28 pm

John in CR wrote:Pedals can serve a purpose on bikes with motors. That is having an adjustable place to put your feet. Get tired of one foot forward, then put the other forward. You can also lift the inside pedal on turns instead of scraping a peg. Forget the chain though. Who wants to hear that clicking FW or risk it seizing while riding at 50mph? Why so slow with the 50mph sustained?


I completely agree with respect to pedals. They're like adjustable footpegs. Not always ideal, but in this case I like them. You might be right about nixxing the chain... I'll probably keep it though, for those times when you want to show off pedal capability.

So 50mph is basically the inflection point of the aerodynamic load curve. Driving an EV above this speed requires streamlining or a larger battery. At 65 I'll only have like 10 miles range, which is not acceptable. I have considered upping that top speed to 65. However, at my rim size, it would require a higher voltage which would mean I would have to go to lower efficiency FETs. I'm hoping that it will accelerate like a sportbike up to 40 or so.
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby John in CR » Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:43 pm

grindz145 wrote:
John in CR wrote:Pedals can serve a purpose on bikes with motors. That is having an adjustable place to put your feet. Get tired of one foot forward, then put the other forward. You can also lift the inside pedal on turns instead of scraping a peg. Forget the chain though. Who wants to hear that clicking FW or risk it seizing while riding at 50mph? Why so slow with the 50mph sustained?


I completely agree with respect to pedals. They're like adjustable footpegs. Not always ideal, but in this case I like them. You might be right about nixxing the chain... I'll probably keep it though, for those times when you want to show off pedal capability.

So 50mph is basically the inflection point of the aerodynamic load curve. Driving an EV above this speed requires streamlining or a larger battery. At 65 I'll only have like 10 miles range, which is not acceptable. I have considered upping that top speed to 65. However, at my rim size, it would require a higher voltage which would mean I would have to go to lower efficiency FETs. I'm hoping that it will accelerate like a sportbike up to 40 or so.


Just because you can go faster doesn't mean you have to go faster. Mine will break 100mph, but I've only done it twice, and only to find out. Having that kind of top speed and being able to get there within 1km means you have great acceleration to any practical speed. Blasting past cars on the highway is tremendous fun, and while I've only gone for the top twice, accelerating through 80mph climbing a hill on the highway is almost a given if traffic isn't too heavy on one nearby stretch of road. Hell I even broke 50mph on a curvy solid 20% grade climb. :twisted:

I've only got 2.2kwh of 111V nominal, so I don't do long continuous stretches of high speed because it kills range, but during the decade I commuted by motorcycle I rarely rode faster than 60 regardless of range and easy refueling. If range at more than 20-30mph is a big factor for you, then spend some significant effort on aero. A low sleek Puch could be worth the effort. With a low sleek build I plan (and shed some kg too, so I don't give up acceleration) then I can use my 16" wheel instead of the low profile 13" I've been running and easily add 15mph or more to my top speed. That's assuming that I don't use the 30 Nissan Leaf modules I have in route and pair them with a Hubmonster in each wheel with the larger wheels I have for a big hog with range, speed, and acceleration....Over 120ah of 111V nominal sure is tempting, especially since it would legally be the same as a pedal bicycle. Having a significant stockpile of everything necessary makes deciding which to build the hard part. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby grindz145 » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:15 pm

John in CR wrote:
grindz145 wrote:
John in CR wrote:Pedals can serve a purpose on bikes with motors. That is having an adjustable place to put your feet. Get tired of one foot forward, then put the other forward. You can also lift the inside pedal on turns instead of scraping a peg. Forget the chain though. Who wants to hear that clicking FW or risk it seizing while riding at 50mph? Why so slow with the 50mph sustained?


I completely agree with respect to pedals. They're like adjustable footpegs. Not always ideal, but in this case I like them. You might be right about nixxing the chain... I'll probably keep it though, for those times when you want to show off pedal capability.

So 50mph is basically the inflection point of the aerodynamic load curve. Driving an EV above this speed requires streamlining or a larger battery. At 65 I'll only have like 10 miles range, which is not acceptable. I have considered upping that top speed to 65. However, at my rim size, it would require a higher voltage which would mean I would have to go to lower efficiency FETs. I'm hoping that it will accelerate like a sportbike up to 40 or so.


Just because you can go faster doesn't mean you have to go faster. Mine will break 100mph, but I've only done it twice, and only to find out. Having that kind of top speed and being able to get there within 1km means you have great acceleration to any practical speed. Blasting past cars on the highway is tremendous fun, and while I've only gone for the top twice, accelerating through 80mph climbing a hill on the highway is almost a given if traffic isn't too heavy on one nearby stretch of road. Hell I even broke 50mph on a curvy solid 20% grade climb. :twisted:

I've only got 2.2kwh of 111V nominal, so I don't do long continuous stretches of high speed because it kills range, but during the decade I commuted by motorcycle I rarely rode faster than 60 regardless of range and easy refueling. If range at more than 20-30mph is a big factor for you, then spend some significant effort on aero. A low sleek Puch could be worth the effort. With a low sleek build I plan (and shed some kg too, so I don't give up acceleration) then I can use my 16" wheel instead of the low profile 13" I've been running and easily add 15mph or more to my top speed. That's assuming that I don't use the 30 Nissan Leaf modules I have in route and pair them with a Hubmonster in each wheel with the larger wheels I have for a big hog with range, speed, and acceleration....Over 120ah of 111V nominal sure is tempting, especially since it would legally be the same as a pedal bicycle. Having a significant stockpile of everything necessary makes deciding which to build the hard part. :mrgreen:


My everyday motorcycle can do a buck 50 fairly easily. I really don't need any more than 50 though. 50 is perfect. I'm not into the whole overpowered chassis thing... ;)
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby John in CR » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:47 pm

Yes, but for a useful 50 you need a top speed of over 60. Otherwise every puff of wind, slight incline, or even a backpack or change in riding position will slow you down. My bike's ridiculous speed is only to demonstrate what's possible, and while 50 works for 99% of my riding I won't accept anything less than 60-65 as an absolute top speed of a bike I plan ride at a max of 50. I do have a build in the works that I'm shooting for a top end of 45mph, but that's because it's a trail bike I expect to ride at probably only 30-35mph off road up in the mountains, so I'm gearing down for better low speed efficiency.
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby EVTodd » Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:52 pm

I'm really looking forward to this build!

I'm hoping it gives me inspiration to start back up on my Garelli moped project. I've changed my mind about what I want to do so many times...

Are those pit bike forks? They look great. I think I like them better than the k10 forks I'm using.

I really like the idea of using a moped as a base for a project like this. Only issue for me is that I look like a circus bear on a trike when I ride it since I'm almost 6' tall and around 200 lbs. It's lots of fun (still ice powered btw) but they're soooo small even compared to a mountain bike. Perhaps longer forks like the ones you have along with longer rear shocks and maybe an extended swing arm would make it look bigger and less silly. We have too many harley guys around this area being dicks... Kinda makes riding a moped less fun.
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby grindz145 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:09 am

EVTodd wrote:I'm really looking forward to this build!

I'm hoping it gives me inspiration to start back up on my Garelli moped project. I've changed my mind about what I want to do so many times...

Are those pit bike forks? They look great. I think I like them better than the k10 forks I'm using.

I really like the idea of using a moped as a base for a project like this. Only issue for me is that I look like a circus bear on a trike when I ride it since I'm almost 6' tall and around 200 lbs. It's lots of fun (still ice powered btw) but they're soooo small even compared to a mountain bike. Perhaps longer forks like the ones you have along with longer rear shocks and maybe an extended swing arm would make it look bigger and less silly. We have too many harley guys around this area being dicks... Kinda makes riding a moped less fun.


If you see the other thread, you'll understand that I share your mind-changing tendancies :D I have some enertia now though.

They are indeed pitbike forks, made by fast ace. They're oversized, but It looks like I'm going to be able to tune them in. I'm a freaking midget (5'5" with very short legs), so the proportions make more sense. It's easy enough to build a simple moped frame from scratch, and register is as the Garielli.

As far as the dick motorcyclists are concerned, a rocketship moped is a surefire antidote :mrgreen:
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby EVTodd » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:45 pm

grindz145 wrote:If you see the other thread, you'll understand that I share your mind-changing tendancies :D I have some enertia now though.

They are indeed pitbike forks, made by fast ace. They're oversized, but It looks like I'm going to be able to tune them in. I'm a freaking midget (5'5" with very short legs), so the proportions make more sense. It's easy enough to build a simple moped frame from scratch, and register is as the Garielli.

As far as the dick motorcyclists are concerned, a rocketship moped is a surefire antidote :mrgreen:


I agree that a custom frame really is the way to go. The garelli is already registered so I plan on making any changes I want to that bike instead of finding something else. It's almost impossible to find a moped in this area with a title so I got lucky with this one.

Now I need to find a local welder I trust or get better at it myself... But enough about my bike. I'm really looking forward to seeing what you end up with.
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Re: The Revival - Puch Magnum Build

Postby bronz » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:10 pm

Oh my goodness that frame is absolutely perfect for an electric commuter. I am really looking forward to seeing the finished product here.
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