Motorcycle class Hub Motor

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markcycle   10 kW

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Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by markcycle » Dec 03 2008 7:52am

I hope to have a 10KW, 20kw peak hub motor to offer for sale in the next few weeks and over the next 3 months I will be offering motorcycle hub motor kits with discs brakes. This is a custom hub motor build to my spec's by a major manufacturer.

Testing will begin shortly using my motorcycle. After that I am going to convert a Ninja 250 using this hub motor.

I would be interested in a list of motorcycles most likely would be upgraded to electric using a hub motor. With everyone's help (Dimensions pictures and suggestions) Those would be the bikes I would develop hub motor conversion kits for.

Imagine using a hub motor, an ICE motorcycle can be a hybrid, plug in hybrid or a fully electric bike. Details shortly
All hub motor will be laced to a DOT approved motorcycle rim as is in my motorcycle build and have Regen braking. This is not a offer to sell at this point, that will happen in a few weeks (3 to 5 weeks). When I have product to sell I will move to the selling section on the forum.
My goal here is to present the concept of a true motorcycle class hub motor spoked to a DOT approved motorcycle rim. Also introduce the concept of keeping the ICE engine and converting bikes to plugin hybrids. In concept it's relativity simple. Dealing with the details can make it complicated, depending on the bike.

Stay tuned

Mark
Attachments
Rear wheel _DOT_small.jpg
X5 laced to a DOT motorcycle rim, just not enough power for me
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DSC_0129_S.jpg
My Motorcycle
DSC_0129_S.jpg (54.31 KiB) Viewed 30655 times

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Jay64   1 MW

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by Jay64 » Dec 03 2008 9:18am

One thing that always kept me from experimenting with hub motors on my bikes is that all the hub motors I saw had a fixed axle to fit in drop outs, while most of my motorcycles have the axle slide through the forks or swing arm. Are you going to have a motor that has a slide through axle?
As for your question, I think that in this industry, that would be a real hard one to focus on. There are so many different cheap donor bikes out there that people will be doing conversions on all sorts of bikes. Basically, whatever they can get their hands on cheap. I would recommend looking at bike models that have the same sized parts. I know Kawasaki and Suzuki were sharing their manufacturing plants, so a lot of their forks/brakes/rims etc. are the same parts. There is a possibility that you could have one hub motor fit on the ninja 250/500 and the GS 650.
Or, another thing that a lot of the aftermarket race parts companies do is to make a specialty product like that and have a variety of adaptors to fit on the different makes of bikes. Just an idea, I really look forward to hearing more about this. I have a few dirtbikes that just don't have enough room for good batteries AND a motor in the frame. If I can get the motor out of the frame, that would be great. I also am VERY interested in the possibility of regen from the front wheel of a motorcycle.
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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by Jay64 » Dec 03 2008 9:36am

Are you going to have disk brakes on these, or can there at least be mounts for disks on them?

What kind of dimensions do you need. I can probably get you a bunch of dimensions from a lot of different bikes if you want.
Johnson64.Com "The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones."
EV Bikes:
'13 Zero S 11.4kwh.
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'87 Hurricane 600, ME0709, 48v/50a SLA, Kelly KD72400, Magura Throttle, High Current Cycle Analyst.
http://www.evalbum.com/2275
Raleigh beach cruiser: 9C rear hub, stock controller, 48v10ah lithium, Cycle Analyst.
Phat Chopper: 9C front hub, stock controller, 48v12ah a123s, Cycle Analyst.

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by markcycle » Dec 03 2008 10:01am

Thanks Jay What you said is all true and is the reason I'm focusing on Hub motors. The value added I will put into the product will help keep it exclusive to my company (EnerTrac Corp.). Special torque arms and hollow axles will be standard on the motor design. I have been doing a lot of research and see the biggest challenge being the rear drum brake most older bike have. Regen will help for rear motors but I feel a disc brake backup will be necessary. The first motor is being tested on my bike so I designed it around a standard axle but all future motors will have hollow axles and drum brake like torque arms.

I also want to provide a conversion service where you can send me the frame and I'll deliver a frame with a mounted hub motor controller, throttle and brake lever. the customer installs their battery of choice and finishes the bike. I could also offer complete turn key service if asked.

But first I want to test and be sure the motor I'm getting in the next 2 weeks is up to the task, on paper it looks good but testing tells the truth. I won't sell a product that doesn't meet my spec's.

So what are my spec's
The most important spec is 0 to 30 MPH in 3 to 5 seconds and 45 MPH in 8 to 10 seconds of course it depends on ones batteries to provide the voltage/current. Top speed around the 50 to 60 MPH area and of course not overheat.

Your help in getting dimension would be great we will talk more and may I'll take a trip to Florida when things get going.

well that's the plan

Mark

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by John in CR » Dec 03 2008 8:45pm

My question is at 10kw continuous, how will it dissipate the 1.5-2.5kw of heat continuously generated?

John

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by markcycle » Dec 03 2008 9:28pm

John in CR wrote:My question is at 10kw continuous, how will it dissipate the 1.5-2.5kw of heat continuously generated?

John
Its a big motor so hopefully it will have enough surface area. Kelly is selling a 6KW motor. The Vectrix has a 20kw hub motor. So its not far fetched to think its possible. As soon as I get pictures I'll post them.

Mark

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by tomv » Dec 04 2008 4:50am

Hi Mark,

That's very exciting!

I would buy a motor that would fit bikes like Honda Innova or Sachs MadAss. I'll also keep the motor under 4kw peak as to stay within EU regulations for mopeds. For me a Crystalyte X5 would work perfectly, but it would need to be laced to motorcycle rim, have a compatible axle/torque arm and disk or drum brake. Maybe you would be able to build such motors even before your high power wheels are ready?

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by markcycle » Dec 04 2008 7:48am

tomv wrote:Hi Mark,

That's very exciting!

I would buy a motor that would fit bikes like Honda Innova or Sachs MadAss. I'll also keep the motor under 4kw peak as to stay within EU regulations for mopeds. For me a Crystalyte X5 would work perfectly, but it would need to be laced to motorcycle rim, have a compatible axle/torque arm and disk or drum brake. Maybe you would be able to build such motors even before your high power wheels are ready?
If I did work with you on a hub motor solution do you have a battery in mind and where would you package the battery in those bikes. (hate to sell you a motor and find out you can't package a battery in the frame) What is the wheel size. The pictures I looked on the web, they look 16 inch and I wound need to know the width between the rear swing arm. It may be easier to convert the front wheel if I had good measurements and a disc rotor. Its possible depending on your budget. I do have an X5 motor I'm not using so its possible.

Mark

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by johnrobholmes » Dec 04 2008 10:17am

Very cool! I have a little pit bike that could use an electric motor on it. A hub motor sure would be simple.

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by markcycle » Dec 04 2008 11:03am

WOW it looks like a hollow axle hub motor with an integrated torque arm that will retrofit to small motorcycles will fill a real need.

My concern with off road bikes is the unsprung weight could have a negative impact of the rear suspension so I don’t know if a hub motor is best for dirt bikes. That being said if you would like to try a hub motor on a small dirt bike we should talk off line and I’ll try to provide a motor for R&D when I get my first quantity delivery of motors.

Mark

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by Jay64 » Dec 04 2008 11:21am

Mark, yeah, I think there might be a good market for this on small offroad bikes. A lot of people are not using them in extreme offroad stuff. A lot of people use them as pit bikes at road races and also as race bikes on small paved tracks like go-kart tracks. I know in So-Cal there are a LOT of people racing small dirtbikes on go-kart tracks. The problem I have had in converting one of my small dirt bikes is not having enough space for the motor AND the batteries, and that is even with using lithium batts. If the motor is out of the way, it might be a viable option for me to convert one of them.
Johnson64.Com "The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones."
EV Bikes:
'13 Zero S 11.4kwh.
GS500, ME0913, Sevcon Size 6 Controller, 90v40ah Lipo, GSXR suspension..
'87 Hurricane 600, ME0709, 48v/50a SLA, Kelly KD72400, Magura Throttle, High Current Cycle Analyst.
http://www.evalbum.com/2275
Raleigh beach cruiser: 9C rear hub, stock controller, 48v10ah lithium, Cycle Analyst.
Phat Chopper: 9C front hub, stock controller, 48v12ah a123s, Cycle Analyst.

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by markcycle » Dec 04 2008 1:35pm

Jay64 wrote:Mark, yeah, I think there might be a good market for this on small offroad bikes. A lot of people are not using them in extreme offroad stuff. A lot of people use them as pit bikes at road races and also as race bikes on small paved tracks like go-kart tracks. I know in So-Cal there are a LOT of people racing small dirtbikes on go-kart tracks. The problem I have had in converting one of my small dirt bikes is not having enough space for the motor AND the batteries, and that is even with using lithium batts. If the motor is out of the way, it might be a viable option for me to convert one of them.
I didn't know there would be so much interest in using this motor on small dirt bikes. If there is a market I will make it happen. I'll have pictures of the prototype motor tomorrow and post them up. The prototype has a solid axle but I talked to my supplier at the start of the project (10 weeks ago) about hollow axles, and hollow axles with integrated torque arms will happen. I'm doing all the CAD design work and have a hollow axle motor drawn and ready to be build as soon as I approve the motor design.

Mark

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by markcycle » Dec 05 2008 12:12pm

I got pictures of the new motor I'm going to test on my bike
One thing you'll notice is I had the phase wires come out one side and the Hall the other. This is so I can use large phase wires and its spoked toa 18 X 1.85 motorcycle rim

Mark
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600 series motor 1.jpg
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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by Jozzer » Dec 05 2008 3:34pm

Unfortionatly hub motors don't tend to last long offroad, its extremely hard on the bearings (having no suspension to soften the blow from the motorweight), and upsets the balance of the bike having so much weight so far back.
Very easy solution for moped conversions though :D
It looks to be about the same dimensions as an X5, can it really take 10kw continuous or is it yet to be tested?
Mazda MX-5. 300KW power. Soliton 1 controller, 11" Kostov motor, 20KW/H Turnigy Lipo for 60-100 miles range. 120mph top speed.
Hudson Kindred Spirit 3 wheeler. Twin Agni setup, 300KG 80KW. 100mph top speed (maybe more, but no-one has the guts to try!)
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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by markcycle » Dec 05 2008 3:46pm

Jozzer wrote:Unfortionatly hub motors don't tend to last long offroad, its extremely hard on the bearings (having no suspension to soften the blow from the motorweight), and upsets the balance of the bike having so much weight so far back.
Very easy solution for moped conversions though :D
It looks to be about the same dimensions as an X5, can it really take 10kw continuous or is it yet to be tested?
The short answer is it has yet to be tested but it is almost twice as wide as an X5 the magnets are exactly twice the width of an X5

My hollow axle design uses a giant axle bearing 60mm ID 85mm OD and 13 mm wide this bearing should take whatever abuse is put to it
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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by Jozzer » Dec 05 2008 8:18pm

I look forward to seeing the results:)
Mazda MX-5. 300KW power. Soliton 1 controller, 11" Kostov motor, 20KW/H Turnigy Lipo for 60-100 miles range. 120mph top speed.
Hudson Kindred Spirit 3 wheeler. Twin Agni setup, 300KG 80KW. 100mph top speed (maybe more, but no-one has the guts to try!)
Aprilia RS125, Agni motor, 600A 96v Kelly controller, 6kw/h pack
Dual Agni Ducati.
Countless ebikes and trikes..
http://www.Jozztek.com

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by pwbset » Dec 05 2008 10:13pm

markcycle wrote:it is almost twice as wide as an X5 the magnets are exactly twice the width of an X5
:shock: Nice. Does Clyte make these for you? How many windings? What are you going to name this motor? If it's 2x X5 width that's like 106mm mags yes? So like 5 windings you could call it the X1065 or something fun. Personally I like number names as opposed to like Sparrow or Phoenix or Puma etc. etc. Number names fulfill a strange inner geek need. :wink:

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by markcycle » Dec 05 2008 10:36pm

pwbset wrote:
markcycle wrote:it is almost twice as wide as an X5 the magnets are exactly twice the width of an X5
:shock: Nice. Does Clyte make these for you? How many windings? What are you going to name this motor? If it's 2x X5 width that's like 106mm mags yes? So like 5 windings you could call it the X1065 or something fun. Personally I like number names as opposed to like Sparrow or Phoenix or Puma etc. etc. Number names fulfill a strange inner geek need. :wink:
Yes Clyte is making the motor for me or I should say my newly formed company EnerTrac Corp.
Yes 106mm wide magnets
Clyte is calling the motor 602 I haven't decided on a name
This motor is really a test motor designed to fit my custom motorcycle. If the motor proves out to have enough power then this design will lead to a hollow axle motor for motorcycles as a upgrade kit. One side benefit is the axle is 60mm in Dia. and is big enough for cooling tubes to be used to cool the windings for those who want to water cool the motor.

Mark
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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by drewjet » Dec 06 2008 6:38am

Mark,

I think it is great that you are doing this.

How much does it weigh?

I see Kelly now has a 120 volt 400 amp brushless controller. 48 KW is a lot of power. Or is there someone else with even more power?

Any chance they will make a larger diameter motor?

Any idea on what the prices are going to be?

Good luck on the testing!

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by markcycle » Dec 06 2008 10:48am

drewjet wrote:Mark,

I think it is great that you are doing this.

How much does it weigh?

I see Kelly now has a 120 volt 400 amp brushless controller. 48 KW is a lot of power. Or is there someone else with even more power?

Any chance they will make a larger diameter motor?

Any idea on what the prices are going to be?

Good luck on the testing!
It weights about 30 to 35 pounds when I get it I'll give an exact weight with the wheel Just a note for those who want to use it off road I can spoke an aluminum off road motorcycle rim to the motor.

The current diameter is fixed for now.

Price for the motor should be about 25 to 30% more than an X5, (maybe less) with the rim I don't know at this point, depends on the rim.

Thanks

Mark

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by michaelplogue » Dec 06 2008 11:37am

I think that this would be an excellent product. Wish something like this was already available before I started on my e-knock motorcycle project. This would have completely eliminated any sort of frame modifications for creating a motor mount.

If this actually makes it to production, I could definitely foresee using one on a future project. Offering various widths of spacers would make this an almost universal motorcycle upgrade kit.

Looking forward to seeing more on this!

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by markcycle » Dec 06 2008 1:59pm

I know at the moment I'm showing more concept than product with this next drawing but I'm excited about it and wanted to share. I integrated the disc brake into the torque arm and made the motor and brake one unit. This will allow the motor to replace any wheel even on a bike that had drum brakes. The requirement is that the torque arm is properly connected to the rear swing arm.

Mark
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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by johnrobholmes » Dec 06 2008 2:14pm

Heck yeah! I will get some measurements of my swingarm for you. Even if I have to install a bigger rear tire I would like your motor as it is hoss. I want stump pulling power, and speeds of around 20 to 30 max really. Even 15mph would be fast enough.

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by Jay64 » Dec 06 2008 11:43pm

That is AWESOME with the built in disk brake. I have a couple of bikes that have drum brakes that I would really like to have disks on. My first build, the TS, really needs brakes bad. It has drums and they suck!!! Let me know when you got this going.
Johnson64.Com "The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones."
EV Bikes:
'13 Zero S 11.4kwh.
GS500, ME0913, Sevcon Size 6 Controller, 90v40ah Lipo, GSXR suspension..
'87 Hurricane 600, ME0709, 48v/50a SLA, Kelly KD72400, Magura Throttle, High Current Cycle Analyst.
http://www.evalbum.com/2275
Raleigh beach cruiser: 9C rear hub, stock controller, 48v10ah lithium, Cycle Analyst.
Phat Chopper: 9C front hub, stock controller, 48v12ah a123s, Cycle Analyst.

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Re: Motorcycle class Hub Motor

Post by markcycle » Dec 07 2008 11:24am

Just showing another view of the Torque are motor I'm thinking a version of this motor for bicycles seems possible say a converted 406. Maybe I'll get me a project motor and rework it. All I need is time man how making money gets in the way of doing what one loves.

Anyone see anything I'm missing as to why this won't work?

Mark
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