Noq's Ridiculous 2015 Motorino XPn Project

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Noq's Ridiculous 2015 Motorino XPn Project

Post by Noq » Mar 14, 2016 2:24 am

Hi! Long time lurker, first time poster, newbie for now. Pleased to be here. This is a great community, and a rich trove of information. I've been reading a lot recently, so thank you all for posting and sharing information about these cool, fun new vehicles we're playing with.

I've had my XPn since last August, and I've just passed the 5,000KM mark. It being my first E-vehicle, I rode it stock for a while, and I'm just now finding out ways to make it better. Here's a pic:

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As you can see, it looks a lot like MrCrash's 2011 model (a hero). Actually, it's not entirely stock because I traded out the SLA packs for LiFePO4 packs w/ BMS, five 12V packs of prismatic cells for a total of 60V in series, 26Ah, sold as an optional upgrade from Motorino ($$$). This gives me roughly ~50KM range. With the limiter/governor decoupled, I hit just shy of 45KMPH on the road. Torque is only so-so since the batteries can only output 50A. I'd love to bring that number up! But first things first, here is the controller I'm working with:
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It's the stock Motorino controller, and it seems to be sealed like a brick. There's no way to pop the board out of the case. It feels glued in, and the outer shell doesn't disassemble any further than what's seen in the pics. I was hoping to do the shunt mod to increase torque. To do so, I might have to take a hacksaw to the case, which would be dumb because then I can't reassemble it. But if I can't open the controller, I can't mod it for stronger wires, higher-rated caps, etc. and may have to buy myself a new one that's more user-friendly, which would entail doing the wiring too.

On the other hand, supposing I do need a new controller, then I should look for one that can handle a few more battery packs and go to 96V (hopefully for less than Motorino's $300/each price) for increased top speed. 75KMPH would be nice . I'd need a new DC-DC convertor since mine is only 60V -> 12V. I'd either have to mod my current charger or get a new one. Increasing the range would also be wonderful, but challenging since these packs are preassembled. What do you think? How do I mod the controller? How best to make my bike faster? Should I get a new controller? Is adding more packs of prismatic cells the right way to go in order to increase top-speed? Is increasing the range possible? I'd like to do the shunt mod, and also see if I can change out some caps so that I can think about adding more voltage.


EDIT: Forgot to add, the 2015 dash is upgraded compared to the 2011 mistercrash version. Mainly looking at odometer to calculate range, and voltage to check for sag on hills / low battery symptoms. Full charge is 73V, and BMS warns/kicks in around 54V.
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Edit 2: Realised modding the controller would be pointless since the batteries can only output 50A, so that's where I'd need to start.
Last edited by Noq on May 13, 2017 7:50 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by mistercrash » Mar 14, 2016 10:20 am

This is what I had to do to get to the top speed you want. Replace the controller with a $450 USD Kelly, the motor with a $420 USD QS MOTORS 5KW 12 inch hub, the battery with 10 Nissan Leaf modules totaling $1290 USD, and then there's the less expensive stuff like the the DC/DC, and all the power wiring plus other stuff like a contactor, fuses and relays which all had up to maybe an extra $500 USD. And all those prices don't include shipping cost or custom fees. You will need to have quite a few tools to help you modify and fabricate stuff to make everything fit.

The top speed you want will not happen with the controller and motor you have. I mean you might get to 75 km/h by adding more batteries and modifying that little controller but you can't ride more than ten seconds at that speed before your 500 W motor starts heating up very quickly. And that controller, no matter how much you modify it, it will not last. It is just not built to take a 200+ pound scooter to high speeds and give lots of torque to get there fast. The batteries from Motorino don't give the power you need, they are pretty weak and they will sag in voltage too much, no sense spending more money to get more of what will not work. If you want the performance of a small motorcycle then you will need to get small motorcycle components, electric ones that is.

Good luck.
Ray
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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by Noq » Mar 14, 2016 2:32 pm

Hi Ray, thank you for your reply. I know you did a lot of work. I wish I was so technical. I see I need a new build. Maybe I can still maximise my current bike by switching out the controller, adding some extra voltage (another three battery packs), and in the future, swapping out the hub motor for a higher powered 10" one. Starting with the controller and some more batteries, I might reach 60-65KMPH, which would be a good jump up. What do you think?

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Last edited by Noq on Jan 19, 2017 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by mistercrash » Mar 14, 2016 6:27 pm

Contact Vito Ho at QS MOTORS and tell him what you want and he will match a motor with a controller for you. You can buy what is already displayed on their online store without talking to anyone but talking to Vito first, he can have a motor specially wound just for you with a controller to match. As for the battery, get the best and most powerful that you can afford.

Have fun
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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by Noq » Mar 15, 2016 12:53 am

Okay. Still going to see if it's viable to add more packs of my current batteries, if I can find them cheap online. It would save a lot of money. Theoretically, if the price is right, what's to stop me from building up to 120V and beyond? Will this continue to push my top-speed up, or will it reach a ceiling? This is a question I'm considering. I wonder how the batteries' C-rating factors into the equation.
Last edited by Noq on Jan 19, 2017 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by mistercrash » Mar 15, 2016 6:00 am

The scooter has lots of limitations. Small space for batteries, small wheels and short wheelbase. 80 km/h is the top speed to be safe.
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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by 4LivesPerGallon » Mar 23, 2016 11:56 pm

mistercrash wrote:The scooter has lots of limitations. Small space for batteries, small wheels and short wheelbase. 80 km/h is the top speed to be safe.

What do you think of starting with the 72V motorcycle ebikes, and modding from there? Apparently the motors are already 2K-3K peak watts, with speed limiters.

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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by mistercrash » Mar 25, 2016 3:45 pm

4LivesPerGallon wrote:
mistercrash wrote:The scooter has lots of limitations. Small space for batteries, small wheels and short wheelbase. 80 km/h is the top speed to be safe.

What do you think of starting with the 72V motorcycle ebikes, and modding from there? Apparently the motors are already 2K-3K peak watts, with speed limiters.
Which ones are you talking about? Motorcycles and ebikes are two very different things.
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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by 4LivesPerGallon » Mar 25, 2016 11:43 pm

mistercrash wrote:
4LivesPerGallon wrote:
mistercrash wrote:The scooter has lots of limitations. Small space for batteries, small wheels and short wheelbase. 80 km/h is the top speed to be safe.

What do you think of starting with the 72V motorcycle ebikes, and modding from there? Apparently the motors are already 2K-3K peak watts, with speed limiters.
Which ones are you talking about? Motorcycles and ebikes are two very different things.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/3 ... 42760.html

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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by Noq » Apr 05, 2016 2:54 pm

I broke my controller trying to do the shunt mod last night. As mentioned previously, I was having trouble removing the board from the metal case it came in. I read that someone was successful by hammering a block of wood against the PCB to knock it out of the case. I tried, and ended up snapping a couple wires before I even got in the case.
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When I plugged it in with two broken wires, the motor gave a little hum on power-on and the speedometer read 94kmph although I wasn't touching the throttle. I guess I had no choice now but to get into the controller to try to reattach the wires.

I took a hacksaw to it. I noticed the reason why the board was stuck and not coming out is because all the fets were thermal pasted to this black metal membrane that was heavily attached to the aluminum case.
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They were really glued on there.
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When sawing it off, I broke a fet off the board. I tried to resolder the wires to the board. I made little joints with the stripped wire and spare thin copper wire and did my best to desolder the little pad on the board and make a hole I could thread the wire through, and then melt solder on that. It's worth noting I suck at soldering and ended up burning a hole through the board, and then trying my best to cover that in solder but I fear I may have destroyed the trace.

Wire joint to extend the cable:
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Finished attachment:
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Controller powers the bike. Sometimes a little short at first turn-on (gauges flicker, turn off key, turn back on, everything fine). Trouble is, throttle doesn't work. Giving it a twist doesn't move the motor at all.

In the process of reattaching the first two wires, I broke two other wires (hooray) and these I believe are from the throttle. I tried to give them the same treatment, but because of their cramped position, I ended up burning even more of the board when trying to thread the wires through. No dice. Throttle refuses to make the motor do anything.

Did I mention I partially hacksawed through the controller board when trying to get the case off?
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frock

I also cut my thumb, so at this point, I don't know anymore. I feel dumb.

I sent an email to QS Motors for Kelly Controllers last night asking about buying a good controller. Hopefully a Motorino tech would agree to help me.
Last edited by Noq on Jan 19, 2017 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by mistercrash » Apr 05, 2016 7:36 pm

Thanks for the good laugh :lol: I'm really sorry about your bad luck but man! That post was halarious. Anyway, if you can buy a new controller from the dealer than do that. If you can bring the scooter to the dealer and let them install a new controller, even better. But right now, you should concentrate on your finals, like seriously dude. Get back in there and study! Or else you might end up being a bus driver like me :lol:
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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by mistercrash » Apr 05, 2016 7:45 pm

4LivesPerGallon wrote:What do you think of starting with the 72V motorcycle ebikes, and modding from there? Apparently the motors are already 2K-3K peak watts, with speed limiters.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/3 ... 42760.html
These look really cheap, and what wattage is it? 1500W or 3000W or 5000W? and standard speed of 50 km/h and top speed of 61 to 80? or is it 100? Because it's all mentioned in the description. :roll: Don't know man, can these even be licensed and insured in North America? I would rather start with an already licensed and insured scooter that is right here in my Country and has a well known brand like Yamaha, Honda, Symco, Genuine and so on.
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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by Noq » Apr 05, 2016 9:53 pm

Happy to have brightened your day. Thanks for the advice. Bus drivers provide a valuable service.

I'm doing some price inquiries. Motorino wants $250 and tax for their controller.

The guy at QS Motors would fix me up with a 10-inch 4kW 72V-120V (still works at 60V) "V3" motor for $359 + $153 7-day shipping = $512 (USD): link. He says it's superior to the V2 kits, which include a throttle and non-programmable controller for $499 but are stuck at a fixed voltage, e.g. 72V. He recommends a Kelly programmable controller. Here's one: KHB12151, 24V-120V/150A max 75A continuous for $409. 120V, which is probably as high as I'd ever go. I'm leaning towards that one, although there are ones with higher max/continuous amps. I don't think I'll be exceeding that level though, IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN.
*looks at your thread*
Wait. With the Leaf batteries, your CA says "Amax 354.4". Is that... are you kidding me? Did you hit that? (Then again your Amin says negative 46.5, so who knows WTF.)

So that's a good chunk of cash. Please let me know if you think this is appropriate, or if I should get a different controller. Again, I'm planning to start with the 60V prismatic lithium I've got, and push it up to 96V (or maybe even 120V if the return is good).

I've got a friend coming down on the weekend to take a look at my soldering mess and see if he can salvage the board for me in the meanwhile, but he suspects I blew the traces.

EDIT: Fany from Kelly Controllers says that the sinusoidal controllers are better because they're silent and come with super high torque. See below for a quote of his regarding why KLS is better than KBL or KEB.
Last edited by Noq on Jan 19, 2017 4:40 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by Noq » Apr 06, 2016 4:48 pm

The tech's at Motorino are down to install my motor and controller for me for the cost of labour! Just for legal purposes, we have to set the max speed to 32KMPH as I roll it out the door. Maybe I'll bring my laptop with me so that down the block....

I just found out the 60v prismatic battery cells I have are set to shut off if current draw reaches 50A. I'm best to upgrade the battery too, to something like 18650s from Alibaba. I imagine I can downgrade the controller's current draw to 48A to be safe, and then raise the value at a later date when I get better batteries.

I need to study 18650 configurations and make sure I'm not buying a controller that's overkill. No sense getting one rated at 75A continuous/150A max if my new pack can't output anything near that. I could save money. I might also do well to check the price/performance for the Nissan Leaf batteries that mistercrash, our resident expert hero, has fitted into his bike, although I understand those were tough to fit. If anyone has any advice, I'm all ears.
Last edited by Noq on Jan 19, 2017 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by mistercrash » Apr 06, 2016 7:25 pm

I didn't know the Motorino controller was programmable. Mine wasn't five years ago :) It had a simple limiter plug to make it go 32 max. I read these forums for four years, and a few others also. I asked dozens of questions, before I decided I wanted to make my Motorino go much faster than stock. Then I spent months planning, measuring, talking with peeps on the phone and emails about many different products I researched, making plans and scale drawings, asking a few more dozen questions, going back to the drawing board, making mock up batteries and controllers, searching, comparing, asking more questions, questioning my questions, and paying the price for my mistakes. I went over all this three or four times before I pulled the plug on what I installed in the scooter. Did you read that mine is highly illegal now? How dumb is that of me, to build something so cool but I'm afraid to use it because I don't wish to get caught. I said it before and will say it again, if you want an EV that goes fast like a motorcycle, than start with a motorcycle. The Motorino e-bike will get you nowhere. Finally, I don't know where this is coming from: ''mistercrash, our resident expert hero''??? I hope the ES experts I have been badgering with questions for the past few years don't see that.

Good luck and get back to studying. :D
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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by Noq » Apr 07, 2016 12:32 am

Thanks for the advice! I appreciate the amount of reading you've done to stay informed and try and make the right decisions. I'm trying to do the same, but time is limited and I'm completely overwhelmed.

I'm going to buy the 4KW motor from QS I linked back a couple posts, and I'm just trying to figure out a future battery upgrade path to determine which Kelly controller to get. I have no idea what kind of amperage I'm going to be pulling in the future, nor the type of voltage I'll be running at, so I'm trying to estimate that.

I should ask you: is 18650 a good path to reach 80KMPH, or is it best to pursue Leaf modules like you did? Roughly, what's the max amperage I'd probably pull on either of these setups? 200, 300, 400 amps peak? This will help me decide which controller to order; it really comes down to the current.

To clarify, I meant the Motorino tech's would reprogram the Kelly controller they agreed to install. Motorino's own controllers are definitely not programmable.
Last edited by Noq on Jan 19, 2017 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by Noq » Apr 07, 2016 4:01 am

In asking about differences between KEB and KLS controllers, Fany from Kelly Controllers wrote me this:
KBL72221X is lower than KEB72801X.The same rating is KBL72301X for KEB72801X.

Yes,the CAN Bus is an optional function on KBL Controller.The CAN Bus is only used to read the parameters of the controller.It can not accept the executive commands to try to control the motor speed or torque.
The CAN bus is located on KBL J1 plug.KEB got J1 removed,comparing with KBL.That is why KBL is expensive than keb.

The RS232 port is supposed to program the controller parameters in the user program.

You can just use one USB to RS232 cable to connect the controller to user program for both KEB and KBL.

If it is QS 4KW hub motor,I will suggest you use our sinusoidal KLS7240D controller for this motor.
It can do huge torque and silene control.

As you know,KEB/KBL/KHB is based on trapezoidal waveform.So the noise at the starting up should be expected.
And the noise will be existed in the whole running.

KLS controller is sinusoidal waveform control.There is no noise for the whole operation.
Both KLS and KEB/KBL/KHB can do releasing throttle regen mode,brake switch regen mode and brake analog regen mode now.

The switch signal is valid to ground on KEB/KBL/KHB while you need to use 12V of KLS controller to activate the switch signal.

And KLS can support Android OS program and Microsoft OS program.
You need to do auto_identify function to run KLS controller to drive the motor.You don't have to program the controller KEB/KBL/KHB to drive the motor.

You can use bluetooth device to connect KLS controller to Android phone to program if you buy a bluetooth device.
By the way,CAN bus is optional function for KLS7240D also.It is broadcast type CAN bus function.

Thanks,
Fany
After more back and forth, Fany ultimately recommended the KLS 96501-8080I (US$699) if I wanted to go up to 96V in the future, as the KLS7240D only handles up to 72V. The 96501 handles up to 500A 30s burst, 200A continuous (motor current), and like all of these types of Kellys has lots of hardware protection (over current, over voltage, over temp controller/motor). Pricey, but I might do it since it will leave the door open for future upgrades. There's also a 96601 that handles 600A 30s boost / 240A continuous for more $$ (US$799).


KLS12201-8080IPS
•US$479
•24V-120V
•Motor Current Limit, 1 minute: 200A
•Motor Current Limit, continuous: 80A
•Uses sin/cosine speed sensors, as denoted by the "IPS" (versus "I" models, which use hall sensors), so not the type I need for my motor.

KLS7240D
•US$399
•24V-72V
•Motor Current Limit, 10 seconds boost: 350A
•Motor Current Limit, continuous: 140A

KLS7250D (mistercrash model)
•US$439
•18V-90V
•Motor Current Limit, 30 seconds burst: 400A
•Motor Current Limit, continuous: 160A

Decisions, decisions.
Last edited by Noq on Jan 19, 2017 6:36 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by inedible » Apr 07, 2016 2:13 pm

:shock:
Oooh... Brutal. That's some seriously cringeworthy disassembly/soldering. Sorry you had such bad luck taking your controller apart. An expensive mistake, though I suppose that's how you learn.
Noq wrote: *looks at your thread*
Wait. With the Leaf batteries, your CA says "Amax 354.4". Is that... are you kidding me? Did you hit that? (Then again your Amin says negative 46.5, so who knows WTF.)
I'm going to go out on a limb and say yeah, that's probably correct. The negative amperage reading is probably because regen. That's complete and total overkill though, that's like 30kW peak output, which is probably enough for a small car. I've no doubt mistercrash could drive his new bike up a vertical wall with that much torque.

I ended up upgrading my motorino XPD with 4x leaf modules (60V) and a Kelly KEB72301X controller. The controller is rated up to 150A but I rarely set it above 60%, so 90A peak, and that's plenty enough torque for me. I can reach full speed within 5 seconds or so, and hills don't slow me down at all unless they're especially steep.

At a full charge of 67V, my max speed is around 55kmph, which is enough that if I went any faster I'd be really concerned about getting pulled over. I wouldn't want to up the voltage to 72v unless I had some way to register and insure it as a LSM.

The leaf modules *almost* fit in a motorino's battery box. I had to use a sawzall to remove the box and move it back an inch to get everything to fit, but in the end it was worth it. I LOVE these leaf cells. They keep really balanced, they have a small number of high capacity cells so you're not fiddling with soldering/spot welding hundreds of tabs. I've been using this battery without a BMS, just a bulk charger, for over a year now, and the most I've seen them out of balance was like ~0.05v

Anyway, one thing to point out is if you're going to replace your controller with anything but the motorino one, you'll lose your dashboard. I ended up welding a smartphone holder to my handlebars so I use an old cellphone for a speedometer, and a voltmeter to measure the battery. You'll have to come up with something similar and factor that into your costs as well.

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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by Noq » Apr 07, 2016 9:29 pm

Hi inedible, I read your thread and see that you've got an XPd, and you split apart the Leaf cells to make a custom pack at 60V with only four modules. I don't know how you were able to get your Motorino controller open so cleanly since I had so much trouble.

Because I have an XPn, I might have a little more room than you, especially considering underseat storage. Although I'm planning to stay at my 60V 26Ah 50A prismatic pack for now, I'm thinking in the future of going up to a 5-pack of Leaf modules since it appears mistercrash was able to fit that without too much trouble, and keep my underseat storage. (Edit: 2015 battery box also needed to be extended to accommodate Leaf modules.)

I'm still figuring out how Leaf modules work. You have a four-pack that is at 60V and gets you to 55KMPH on your setup. This site sells a seven-pack at 58.8V (edit: false advertising; this is the full charge, not nominal voltage which would be 51.8V). Mistercrash has a ten-pack at 74V that does 90KMPH.

One thing that worried me is that mistercrash drew over 350A and heard a pop in his Kelly KLS7250D sinusoidal controller (rated 400A peak, 160A continuous). This leads me to think that if I ever want to run at that kind of power, I might do best to buy the $699 KLS 96501-8080I controller linked in the post above, which can do 500A peak, 200A continuous. This would help futureproof me in case I ever decide to migrate to a licensed LSM and go up to 96V.

From my current research, it's really starting to look like Leaf modules offer a much better bang for their buck than 18650's do, and are a lot less of a hassle, so I'm leaning towards them.

So I'll lose the Motorino dash (voltage, speedo, odo), but I can hook up a CA. One cool thing is that the KLS controllers are capable of outputting over Bluetooth with a $5 attachment, so I could just mount my Android phone and use that to view current stats and if I'm not mistaken, even program the controller on the fly. That's pretty high-tech.

Just heard back from Fany at Kelly, who's been very patient with my uneducated self. He says:
The Cycle Analyst is nothing to do with the CAN bus.This is a device which includes a shunt to provide the current,voltage etc info on a display. You can make the wiring from CA to our controller.

KLS 96501-8080I is 500A peak while KLS 12201-8080I is 200A peak.
Please note KLS 12201-8080IPS is designed for the PMSM motor with Sin/Cosin speed sensors.
If there is only three hall sensors on the motor,you may use KLS-8080I,not KLS-8080IPS controller.

KLS-8080I is designed for the motor with common three hall sensors.
KLS-8080IPS is designed for the motor with sine/cosine speed sensors.
You can find the details in configuration in KLS 8080I/IPS user manual.
When speed sensor type is at 4 for linear hall sensor(sin/cosin speed sensor),you need to use KLS8080IPS controller.
For example,we can provide Mars 1115 motor with sin/cosin speed sensor.
There are +5V,GND,Sin and Cosin port from this speed sensor.

If the motor is BLDC type with hall sensors,you can not use KLS-8080IPS.You may use KLS-8080I.
And I think it is better to use KLS12301-8080I controller to provide margin for the controller to drive the motor.Especially it could be getting overloading in summer.
I'd better go with the big boy for $699 and match it to the 4KW 10" QS motor that's currently on its way. I'll also get a CA, and in the future a better DC-DC converter. I'm looking for one that can do "up to" 96V -> 12V. Kelly has a 40-85V to 12.5V, 30A, but I don't want to buy it in case I go past 85V which is a big possibility in the future. I'm trying hard to use what I've got now, and build up over time as circumstances allow, which means looking at future upgrade paths while maintaining current functionality.

Edit—bought the following:
KLS96501-8080I: US$699
Z-TEK USB to RS232 cable: US$19
Bluetooth converter: US$5
Single controller control box (for bench testing): US$29

Fany offered me a 20% discount on the order and was very helpful throughout the process.
Last edited by Noq on Jan 19, 2017 6:54 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by inedible » Apr 07, 2016 11:48 pm

The leaf battery modules contain 4 cells each. The cells are 3.7v LiMnO4 prismatic lipo cells with ~30AH of capacity. I believe they're manufactured for 33AH, but you can only buy them used. As they come, they're wired with pairs of two cells in series, so 7.4v per module, 60AH.

I've cut mine apart and rewired them in series so I'm getting 60V out of four modules. If I left them in their original configuration I'd need 8, but I'd prefer to have less weight, and space is limited on a XPd.

The cells rated for about 4-5C discharge, so like 120-150A if you wire the single cells in series, or 240-300A if you leave them in their 2S2P configuration, so there's that to think about. If you want higher amperage, because I guess you live on a planet with stronger gravity or maybe you just want to pop wheelies all the time, you'd need to go to a different battery chemistry or somehow stuff fifteen of these on your scooter and go through the hassle of cutting the modules apart to rewire them to 20S3P.

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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by Noq » Apr 08, 2016 4:07 am

Thank you for your reply inedible. I think I understand the specs behind these Leaf batteries now. So supposing I order 5 modules to fit in my battery compartment, I could keep it standard 5x2S2P configuration, yielding a 37V / 60Ah battery which at 4-5C can output 240-300A, OR split them apart into a 5x4S1P config yielding 74V / 30Ah that can output 120-150A... and at that voltage/amperage, my 4kW motor would be pushed up to 10kW if W = VA. Doubling that could challenge my motor, so probably 5 modules wired in 4S1P config would suffice (tempted to try to fit 6!).

If mistercrash's battery is a 10x2S2P then he'd have a 74V / 60Ah battery. Since he got a 354A draw at peak, he got (354A / 60Ah = 5.9C) 5.9C output, according to the readings on his 5 minute ride.

In addition to doubling the maximum amperage output, doubling the amp-hour rating also increases the range, so 10 modules would give double the range of 5 modules. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I learned all this just now and am likely to have made mistakes.

I'm going to sleep on this and write the guys at hybridautocentres for a quote, and this weekend see about the dimensions of my battery compartment and what would need to be done to fit 5 or 6 modules in there. It's much more intuitive than fooling with hundreds of 18650 cells.
Last edited by Noq on Jan 23, 2017 1:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by inedible » Apr 08, 2016 10:41 am

Yup, that's more or less all correct. Keep in mind though, the C rating of these batteries is sorta speculative. HAC's page says this:
According US Department of ENERGY study* these batteries can provide up to 240A continuous or over 540A short time on pulse (time is not specified).
And then in this video, EVTV tested dead shorting them and got 700A out of them for ten seconds (test starts at around 94 minutes): http://www.evtv.me.s3-website-us-east-1 ... darch.html

So that's sorta the range of what they're capable of. Of course the higher C rating you use them at, the quicker they lose their lifespan.

Also, when you say:
Noq wrote:In addition to doubling the maximum amperage output, doubling the amp-hour rating also increases the range, if I'm not mistaken, so 10 modules would give double the range of 5 modules. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I learned all this just now and am likely to have made mistakes.
Yeah that's correct, but of course the higher the amperage you draw, the faster you deplete the batteries. So, the controller you're getting is rated for 500A for up to a minute, and 200A continuous. Using 500A for a minute at 84V is 700Wh consumed right there.

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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by mistercrash » Apr 08, 2016 9:18 pm

inedible wrote:That's complete and total overkill though, that's like 30kW peak output, which is probably enough for a small car. I've no doubt mistercrash could drive his new bike up a vertical wall with that much torque.
Overkill until you try it, then you think that you should've done this way sooner.
inedible wrote:At a full charge of 67V, my max speed is around 55kmph, which is enough that if I went any faster I'd be really concerned about getting pulled over.
Anything over 32 km/h with these things and you're an outlaw. The guy going 55 is as much an outlaw as the one going 90.

Anywho! have any pics and documentation of your separating the Leaf modules? I pretty much figured out how the connections are made inside the modules, I'm just not sure how to go about keeping the nice beefy connections they have when you separate the cells.
Is it ready yet?

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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by inedible » Apr 09, 2016 12:08 am

mistercrash wrote: Anywho! have any pics and documentation of your separating the Leaf modules? I pretty much figured out how the connections are made inside the modules, I'm just not sure how to go about keeping the nice beefy connections they have when you separate the cells.
Here's an album of me opening the modules and cutting the bus bars: http://imgur.com/a/ULQfj
Mine are the old style, but the principle should be the same.

I can't find any pics of the cell-to-cell connections, but I used thick-stranded 10sh? gauge copper wire, which I fanned out with pliers to make more even surface contact with the tabs, pre-tinned them so they were rigid, bent them into shape with pliers, tinned the tabs, preheated the wires, then soldered the wires to the tabs nice and quick with high heat while mushing the wire into the tabs with pliers .

I wasn't designing for the kind of power you guys want though. I was thinking about like 80A max when I was putting this together. I don't know about soldering such heavy gauges to these tabs. Could be messy, possibly damage tabs or melt the plastic of the pouches etc. You may want to look at drilling holes in the tabs and using crimped ring connectors.

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Re: 2015 Motorino XPn

Post by Noq » Apr 12, 2016 2:46 pm

Awesome documentation inedible.

Update: Controller, batteries, and CA are coming this week, motor next week. Similar to mistercrash, and on advice from a friend, I decided to get 10 2015 Leaf modules from HAC to keep at stock 2S2P configuration. Mistercrash is right that these modules are well built already, so rather than fooling with them, I'll keep them in their reliable package. That will yield 74V nominal, 84V max at 60Ah.

Now I'm figuring out chargers and BMS. Anyone have recommendations? Charging at 15-18A sounds about right.

Edit: I guess I'll go with this C2000 2kW BMS charger (now BMS S2500 2.1kW). Each one is built prior to shipping; they don't just pull one from the shelf. It's 84V @ 18A, but I asked them to tune it down to 15A to lessen the risk of tripping breakers. I was hoping to find some kind of a programmable charger that would let me type in "4.2V/Cell" and charge up to that point, but I don't know where to get those types of power supplies. I'm also concerned that I have no idea how to balance because I'm a newb. Oh well. Back to studying and waiting for parcels to arrive.

Edit 2: In lieu of studying I bought this 45-120V to 12V, 20A-max, Dowownsol DC-DC converter from China for $25 and $27 shipping. Should arrive in 7-10 days.
Edit 3: They accidentally sent me two, score
Last edited by Noq on Jan 20, 2017 5:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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