E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.
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ElectricGod   1 GW

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by ElectricGod » Apr 10 2019 12:59pm

kiwifiat wrote:
Apr 09 2019 2:34pm
ElectricGod wrote:
Apr 08 2019 10:46pm
Dui, ni shuo de dui wrote:
Apr 08 2019 10:29pm
If your only problem is top speed, can't you find a way to do flux weakening? I don't know what controller you're using, so maybe it's not possible on yours, but I think that's the only way you could have both torque and top speed without having to use a mechanical gearbox.
Flux weakening to be very effective needs lots of exposed iron on the armature. An IPM inrunner is best for FW. Otherwise FW has a small effect. The controller can do FW, but it's not on since it provides a small increase in motor RPM. FW increases phase current and reduces motor efficiency.

There's a third way to get lots of torque and top speed...a bigger motor...and as it turns out I have one to use. :)
With the Lebowski inverter FW works very well with both in SPM and IPM motors. In this video we see a 100% increase in Kv with FW.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57kRSoOrTxw?start=1018[/youtube]

On my scooter that is fitted with a gen1 QS273 motor on 18S I get a 91% increase in Kv with Lebowski's recommended setting of 70% FW.
Are you seeing that under load or under no load?

My experience with FW is that bench testing is waaaaay different from loaded testing. For example, I have an ASI BAC2000. On the bench I was able to set 200% FW. The HLD inrunner has 64kv so that's effectively 128kv. On the bench, the motor made 2X RPM's. However, on the EV, it was much less...maybe 10% more RPM's. Doing the same thing on a C80100 outrunner on the bench got me similar results as the inrunner. Under load, maybe 5% more RPM's. I haven't got a lot of good results for the current used to make me want to use FW in the real world.

I don't know ATM...I have to admit that while I have FW capability in the controller, that I've never tried it on this scooter. Maybe that's sufficient for the job to gear a little further from 1:1 for more torque and then use FW to retain 60mph.

FW with the HLD inrunner is somewhat off-goal for making this scooter sufficiently fast and retain 60mph. There's some significant hating of Revolt motors. I have issues with Revolt too. However, I want to try out the RV-120-regular for myself and see if it's truly a POS like several people have told me. I doubt their statements are 100% true. Bench testing has shown me otherwise. IMHO, I'll install the RV-120 on this scooter and I'll get the torque I want without any loss of speed. I bet the motor will run just fine! Once that's all known and I report whatever I find out in my Revolt thread, I'll then try out FW on the 120. If the RV-120-reg is anything like the C80100, it will get me 3 or 4 mph more speed at a significant current bump and not be worth it.

On the Currie scooter where the C80100 is located, the motor is geared more for torque. If I added a tooth to the motor sprocket, I'm sure I could top out at 50mph on level ground with no FW. I like being able to pull wheelies and to surprise people in cars as I leave them in my dust when I take off...so 45mph is it's top speed. It's well faster than any typical gas moped/scooter. I want that from the XB-502 and right now it just accelerates like most cars do.

The HLD inrunner is fine. It's plenty fast as is and destroys any gas powered moped/scooter around. For my expectations, it's not enough motor and still achieve 60mph. FW won't get me enough extra motor RPMs to get what I want either. Yesterday, standing at an intersection, there was a guy on a 50cc moped. I was curious to see him take off when the light changed. The cars were long gone and he had the throttle wide open. The engine was making that high pitched whine that these little engines are known for. There he was at WOT and barely making 3 or 4 hp. I immediately was thinking about the XB-502 and how even at 20% throttle, I'd be applying more power to the tire than he was at WOT. I felt sorry for him! Anyway, no one is going to call the XB-502 slow. It needs a bigger motor and while the HLD is so much better than anything gas powered remotely in this size, it's still not enough.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by kiwifiat » Apr 11 2019 8:53pm

ElectricGod wrote:
Apr 10 2019 12:59pm
kiwifiat wrote:
Apr 09 2019 2:34pm

Flux weakening to be very effective needs lots of exposed iron on the armature. An IPM inrunner is best for FW. Otherwise FW has a small effect. The controller can do FW, but it's not on since it provides a small increase in motor RPM. FW increases phase current and reduces motor efficiency.

There's a third way to get lots of torque and top speed...a bigger motor...and as it turns out I have one to use. :)

With the Lebowski inverter FW works very well with both in SPM and IPM motors. In this video we see a 100% increase in Kv with FW.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57kRSoOrTxw?start=1018[/youtube]

On my scooter that is fitted with a gen1 QS273 motor on 18S I get a 91% increase in Kv with Lebowski's recommended setting of 70% FW.
Are you seeing that under load or under no load?

My experience with FW is that bench testing is waaaaay different from loaded testing. For example, I have an ASI BAC2000. On the bench I was able to set 200% FW. The HLD inrunner has 64kv so that's effectively 128kv. On the bench, the motor made 2X RPM's. However, on the EV, it was much less...maybe 10% more RPM's. Doing the same thing on a C80100 outrunner on the bench got me similar results as the inrunner. Under load, maybe 5% more RPM's. I haven't got a lot of good results for the current used to make me want to use FW in the real world.

I don't know ATM...I have to admit that while I have FW capability in the controller, that I've never tried it on this scooter. Maybe that's sufficient for the job to gear a little further from 1:1 for more torque and then use FW to retain 60mph.
I have had my Lebowski contoller hooked up to a Nissan Leaf motor and haven't tested the scooter on the road but hope to in the next week or so and will report back. But yes you are quite right I will not see a 91% increase in top speed once the motor is loaded on the road. The important thing about FW is that it changes the kv of the motor and consequently kt and thus the transfer function between volts and angular velocity and amps and torque. With SPM motors FW reduces kt so if you want the same torque or more you must increase phase amps. My plan is to slowly increase FW current to the point where I no longer see any on road speed improvement and leave it at that. The great thing about Lebowski's controller is that you can do that and it always respects the maximum phase amp setting so there is no chance of frying your battery provided the settings are sensible in the first instance.

There are some good threads on ES where good improvements in speed have been gained by switching from wye to delta but there a couple of things you need to remember that whilst kv increases by √3, kt reduces by the same factor. So to get the same torque at any operating point under delta requires 1.73 times as much current. You can compensate with higher numerical gearing but obviously there is no point going all the way to 1.73 higher gearing just to get yourself back to the same performance you had in wye. The other point is that when you switch from wye to delta there is a 30 degree phase shift and a motor that has Hall sensors installed for wye that is changed to delta will be miss timed and that will manifest itself as appalling no load current drain and generally suboptimal performance everywhere else. You can google for the why and wherefors of the 30 degree phase shift, it has come up numerous times on ES before:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 691#p25691
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 97#p276197

I am pretty sure user recumpence uses delta/wye switching on his insanely good builds using astro motors and sensorless controllers.

So you either need to use a good sensorless contoller or move your Hall sensors if you want to get decent performance out of a wye to delta conversion. In any case if it were my build I would be pretty happy with the performance you have with the wye configuration.
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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by ElectricGod » Apr 12 2019 11:47am

kiwifiat wrote:
Apr 11 2019 8:53pm
I have had my Lebowski contoller hooked up to a Nissan Leaf motor and haven't tested the scooter on the road but hope to in the next week or so and will report back. But yes you are quite right I will not see a 91% increase in top speed once the motor is loaded on the road. The important thing about FW is that it changes the kv of the motor and consequently kt and thus the transfer function between volts and angular velocity and amps and torque. With SPM motors FW reduces kt so if you want the same torque or more you must increase phase amps. My plan is to slowly increase FW current to the point where I no longer see any on road speed improvement and leave it at that. The great thing about Lebowski's controller is that you can do that and it always respects the maximum phase amp setting so there is no chance of frying your battery provided the settings are sensible in the first instance.

There are some good threads on ES where good improvements in speed have been gained by switching from wye to delta but there a couple of things you need to remember that whilst kv increases by √3, kt reduces by the same factor. So to get the same torque at any operating point under delta requires 1.73 times as much current. You can compensate with higher numerical gearing but obviously there is no point going all the way to 1.73 higher gearing just to get yourself back to the same performance you had in wye. The other point is that when you switch from wye to delta there is a 30 degree phase shift and a motor that has Hall sensors installed for wye that is changed to delta will be miss timed and that will manifest itself as appalling no load current drain and generally suboptimal performance everywhere else. You can google for the why and wherefors of the 30 degree phase shift, it has come up numerous times on ES before:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 691#p25691
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 97#p276197

I am pretty sure user recumpence uses delta/wye switching on his insanely good builds using astro motors and sensorless controllers.

So you either need to use a good sensorless contoller or move your Hall sensors if you want to get decent performance out of a wye to delta conversion. In any case if it were my build I would be pretty happy with the performance you have with the wye configuration.
Phase amps is currently set to 200 and in WYE that makes the HLD run pretty good without getting too warm. I could probably set that higher and see if I get more out of the motor. As is, the motor runs at around 160F in the windings with a fan on it. I probably have a bit more phase amps I can put into it and not get overly hot.

I follow this for hall placement. It says nothing about delta or WYE making a difference. This is the one time I've ever messed with WYE/delta switching.

Image

I've never come across anything before where delta was needing the halls moved vs WYE. I guess 30 degrees electrical would translate to 30 degrees physical. This could explain the lack luster performance in delta and the extra heat. Reading this post (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 691#p25691), it seems a second set of halls shifted 30 degrees would do the trick?

The 117T wheel sprocket needs to be milled out. It's acting like a speaker cone right now and amplifies every little bit of chain noise. Until I do some milling on it, delta is out of the question for the HLD. It's just way too noisy.

The whole reason I went to delta was so I had more motor RPM's and then use some of that so I could gear a little further from 1:1 and thus get more torque at the wheel without losing any top end speed. It didn't work out for several reasons.

1. 117T sprocket increased chain noise issues
2. Increased motor temps
3. Less motor power

For this build, I think the RV-120-regular will get me what I want and then I'll stop messing with this EV. I have a slightly larger scooter build to start that will get a 40kw hubmonster motor in it. My desire is to keep it's weight at 130 pounds or less so all that motor power can really get it ripping along. It will need dual motor controllers since it's a 6 phase motor.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by ElectricGod » Apr 14 2019 11:16pm

The motor bracket it essentially done for the RV-120. I need to make a few small additions to it for mounting to the swing arm, but it's really close to getting mounted! I still need to make a new shaft for the motor.

A few pics of the progress today. It's all assembled with 8-32 screws which are a good size in 1/4" 6061aluminum. At the lower corners is where the most stress will be so I used 3 screws .5" apart to help hold the corners together better. I don't think this bracket will break apart or shear off screws.

Bottom plate mounted to the face plate and all the face plate screw holes drilled out.

Image

100% assembled.

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I'll probably knock the top front corners off at that extra set of holes I didn't use to help the bracket clear the scooter frame. I have 1" of vertical movement in the slots. I have counter sunk screws coming. This will look a lot cleaner soon.

Image

The bottom screws can't be right into the corners as there's screws in from the front they would run into. I couldn't get them any closer to the corners than this. Counter sunk screws are coming which will make all the screw heads flush with the metal surfaces.

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I can rotate the motor in 60 degree increments so the wires don't stick straight up, but this is probably how the motor will get mounted. On either side of the motor bell is about 1/8" clearance to the angle pieces.

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All the way down in the slots clears by 1/8"...which is what I was going for. Nice to get things right!

Image

Mounting will be done exactly like how the HLD was mounted. I'll use 2 hose clamps around the swing arm pivot and 2 M8 screws through the square section. The 3 other screws never got used in the end as it took up too much space in front of the wheel. I might add a third hose clamp as they are taking the brunt of the force from the motor and now that's even stronger than before.

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XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by ElectricGod » Apr 21 2019 3:38am

Well photobucket is being a bitch again os doing anything there is impossible...no uploading no acess to existing images...nada. I'm ready to dump them. There services are spotty and unreliable at best and paying for service doesn't make that better.

The bracket mounting is similar to how I did it for the HLD inrunner, But the spacing is a bit wider.

Image

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The Revolt RV-120-regular motor bracket needed some modding to make it fit the space. The front corner was too tall to fit under a structural cross piece so I had to cut it down a little.

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XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by ElectricGod » Apr 24 2019 3:55pm

More work done...last night

The motor is in place and the chain line is perfect. I'm not sure why, but even before trying delta and that giant 117T sprocket, the scooter was noisier than it is now. You hear a small amount of chain noise and motor sound and that's it. This is significantly quieter than before. Maybe the tweaking I did for the 117T sprocket also fixed a small alignment issue I had previously?

Image

I needed a larger roller on my tensioner to take up a bit more slack. Originally I was using a 35mm roller, now it's 50mm. Those elongated slots in the motor bracket were the right idea. All the way down has too much slack for the roller to take up, but raise the motor .3" and the roller can take care of the rest and makes loosening the chain easy for servicing. Since I had to cut off the top of the upper back area, I have the motor racked in the slots to stay well below the open slot end.

Image

As you can see the chain line passes right over this screw. I couldn't use the socket head screws and washers like I did for the other 3 screws. This is a countersunk screw that I milled down the head to make it 2mm thick. There's 4mm of clearance between the motor bracket and the chain. They don't ever touch, but it's close! At that screw head it's 2mm clearance and so far I don't see or hear any evidence that they touch. 219 chain on a screw head leaves it chewed up pretty quickly and makes a very distinctive noise. I have 1.5mm I could move the chain line outward just by removing 6 washers between the wheel sprocket and adapter and adjusting the motor sprocket a little. If this works well as is, there's no point.

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I've spun up the motor a good bit in place and it all seems to be OK. I need to do a bit more work in here to secure the phase wires and halls, but it's close to getting closed up and ride-able again. The controller was shifted upward a little to clear the motor a bit more and that brought it closer to the blower for better air flow.

Image
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by ElectricGod » May 09 2019 5:19am

I discovered I had problems with the motor so I took it apart and found my phase wires were rubbing on the skirt bearing carrier.

I then took the motor apart to fix this issue and in the end just rewound it for a lot more copper fill.

This is a single phase end. On the left is the phase end and on the right is what was originally in the motor. This is easily 3X more copper after the rewind. The factory wind is about like a single 12 awg wire. Now it's about like an 8 awg wire.

Image

The motor was wound for 49kv or 12 turns. I wanted a higher Kv so I went to 10 turns or 60kv. This allowed for more room to put more copper in the phases and they weren't particularly full anyway.

This is the stator as it came from Revolt. It looks full, but it's not really. I have a lot more copper on the motor now than how it was originally.


Image

This is the rewound stator. There's not much free space on the stator teeth. Never the less, I could have probably added another 4 strands of 28 awg for a little more fill.

Image
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by Ianhill » May 09 2019 12:56pm

For a manual wind thats damn smart lot more copper on there, do you weigh them before and after ?

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by ElectricGod » May 10 2019 5:10pm

Ianhill wrote:
May 09 2019 12:56pm
For a manual wind thats damn smart lot more copper on there, do you weigh them before and after ?
I wanted to, but my scale stopped working when I moved...got crunched somehow and never bought a replacement. I have all the copper from the original wind. I'll hang onto that and can weigh it when I get another scale. I have left over sections of the new wind so I can use that guestimate the new wind weight.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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RV-120-regular rewind

Post by ElectricGod » May 26 2019 6:04pm

I pulled my scale apart. A paper clip had gotten lodged inside. No wonder it wasn't working!

The original copper weighs .9 pounds
The newly wound stator weighs 5.7 pounds.
There's about 21 feet of wire per phase.
I have 3 ends left over that add up to 15.4 feet and all together weigh .4 pounds.

So .4/15.4 feet = .026 pounds per foot.
.026 x 21 feet = .55 pounds per phase or 1.64 pounds for the entire motor.
That means the bare stator is about 4 pounds.

What's really cool is a got about 1.82X more copper on the stator than the factory wind!
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: RV-120-regular rewind

Post by Ianhill » May 26 2019 6:37pm

ElectricGod wrote:
May 26 2019 6:04pm
I pulled my scale apart. A paper clip had gotten lodged inside. No wonder it wasn't working!

The original copper weighs .9 pounds
The newly wound stator weighs 5.7 pounds.
There's about 21 feet of wire per phase.
I have 3 ends left over that add up to 15.4 feet and all together weigh .4 pounds.

So .4/15.4 feet = .026 pounds per foot.
.026 x 21 feet = .55 pounds per phase or 1.64 pounds for the entire motor.
That means the bare stator is about 4 pounds.

What's really cool is a got about 1.82X more copper on the stator than the factory wind!
You spun it up at all ? there should be a nice torque increase let us know how it acts in the real world in regards to heat.

If we had the phase to phase resistsnce of both versions we could have done a I2R losses calc before and after as the bearings are the same for frictional losses and the windage will have changed very little too only mass has increased becuase its the same motor only that one calc will have changed its heat behavour.

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Re: RV-120-regular rewind

Post by ElectricGod » May 28 2019 10:44pm

Ianhill wrote:
May 26 2019 6:37pm
ElectricGod wrote:
May 26 2019 6:04pm
I pulled my scale apart. A paper clip had gotten lodged inside. No wonder it wasn't working!

The original copper weighs .9 pounds
The newly wound stator weighs 5.7 pounds.
There's about 21 feet of wire per phase.
I have 3 ends left over that add up to 15.4 feet and all together weigh .4 pounds.

So .4/15.4 feet = .026 pounds per foot.
.026 x 21 feet = .55 pounds per phase or 1.64 pounds for the entire motor.
That means the bare stator is about 4 pounds.

What's really cool is a got about 1.82X more copper on the stator than the factory wind!
You spun it up at all ? there should be a nice torque increase let us know how it acts in the real world in regards to heat.

If we had the phase to phase resistsnce of both versions we could have done a I2R losses calc before and after as the bearings are the same for frictional losses and the windage will have changed very little too only mass has increased becuase its the same motor only that one calc will have changed its heat behavour.
No, not yet...wanted to unwind Phase A first to make sure I didn't have a winding mistake. Now that's been double checked so I'm going to put it together finally.

I have the old phase wire in single continuous lengths. I can still measure its resistance.

Keep in mind that it was originally wound at 12 turns for 49kv. I wanted a higher Kv so I wound it at 10 turns. This also allowed a bit more copper per phase. Phase resistance won't be the same no matter what. I'm not sure how this evaluation would result in a meaningful comparison.

What I can say is the motor ought to be a good bit stronger and that heat shouldn't be greater than it was already.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by ElectricGod » Jun 05 2019 12:57pm

I don't know what happened...

I've checked out the phases, made sure their resistance and inductance is the same. I've made sure there was no short to the stator.

I put the motor together and attempted to turn the bell and it acted like it had a phase short. WTF?! So I checked and sure enough, the phases were shorted to the stator. I pulled the bell off, no damage anywhere to the windings. I have no idea where the short is. I've taken all 3 phases off and don't see a problem with the wires either. I'm going to re-use the same wire, but cover some bare metal parts first. Then when I transition from one side of the stator to the other for a phase, put that section of strands in heat shrink. Since the stator is all unwound again, I can check it's weight. I think I'll also give it a good coating in electrical paint before I lay down wire. GRRR!
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by Ianhill » Jun 05 2019 1:49pm

Damn son you had some shitty luck with motors it's gonna make you a master in the end.

The golf r I seen was the revo tuned mighty car mods but looking at the times it's 2 seconds quicker on the quarter mile but they still shift well and got mental grip so no doubt it would smash most hatches of any era

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by ElectricGod » Jun 05 2019 11:23pm

Ianhill wrote:
Jun 05 2019 1:49pm
Damn son you had some shitty luck with motors it's gonna make you a master in the end.

The golf r I seen was the revo tuned mighty car mods but looking at the times it's 2 seconds quicker on the quarter mile but they still shift well and got mental grip so no doubt it would smash most hatches of any era
The guys of MCM have lost their way. I want the old stuff back where they bodge together a car on the cheap. The money spent on the R was ridiculous and all paid for by sponsors. Must be nice! BUT...how is that anything like what the rest of us have to work with? What's worst is after dropping some $10,000 worth of parts into that car, all thye got was 372hp. I could do that with the factory turbo and intercooler! Better intake, use silicon tubing like they did for air flow and a the larger exhaust would have gotten me the same power. They never touched the fuel system. What they did to that car was meant for methanol, not gas and then they didn't go all the way. It should have landed well into the 450hp+ range.

Motor...yeah...I'll get past this...
One thing I googled for today and completly failed was how to use thread to secure the windings. The little strands come loose easily and I can't have that. I guess when the original wind went super well...I should have known better...that the other shoe had yet to drop...
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by Ianhill » Jun 06 2019 7:29am

It's a nice car but for cash coin a b series honda civic vti is hard to beat but they launch like shit.

The b series is a tuners dream chip tune the ecu yourself for $25 map it yourself and buy a ebay turbo kit the whole thing could be well under $5000 and have around the 450 bhp mark on stock internals go over 1000 when forged.

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by ElectricGod » Jun 07 2019 11:15am

Ianhill wrote:
Jun 06 2019 7:29am
It's a nice car but for cash coin a b series honda civic vti is hard to beat but they launch like shit.

The b series is a tuners dream chip tune the ecu yourself for $25 map it yourself and buy a ebay turbo kit the whole thing could be well under $5000 and have around the 450 bhp mark on stock internals go over 1000 when forged.
I bet there's suspension kits to help out the Honda. Still...only front wheel drive is not going to hook up well. 2500 pound car...stripped out to lose another 4-500 pounds and a pretty good tune would make this into a 4.5 second car. I can see the traction issues being the real reason for it not being a faster car. My front wheel drive only GTI with really good tires, would hook up OKish. With even Pirelli P0's, I had little trouble pulling harder than grip on the factory engine tune. On my Golf R, I rev well into 5K, drop the clutch and chirp the tires for a second. AWD hook up is sooo much better!

It looks like the VTI is 1.6 litre only. I can't imagine getting more than 450 bhp out of that engine. AND that's running methanol...won't make for much of a daily driver set up like that. A 2 litre engine is probably the same physical size and weight, but the potential for power is a lot greater. I like racing engines as much as the next guy, but in the end what I really want is a reliable DD that's strong. I can't imagine the VTI being very reliable at 450bhp. I wouldn't want to do that to my 2 litre and then use it for daily.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by Ianhill » Jun 07 2019 11:20am

The b series has a 2.0 variant so that gets sleeved and forged with a gsr head to get the 1000bhp, yeah that then is useless on a daily very little low end torque just deadly top end.

The r is a machine and half stock wouldn't touch it to much myself seems a good drivers car from stock it's a modern mk1 gti no doubt changed the game.

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by ElectricGod » Jun 07 2019 2:30pm

Ianhill wrote:
Jun 07 2019 11:20am
The b series has a 2.0 variant so that gets sleeved and forged with a gsr head to get the 1000bhp, yeah that then is useless on a daily very little low end torque just deadly top end.

The r is a machine and half stock wouldn't touch it to much myself seems a good drivers car from stock it's a modern mk1 gti no doubt changed the game.
1000bhp from a 2 litre...seems impossible! It runs pure methanol or probably hydrazine and the compression is ridiculously high. That engine doesn't last long!

What I really wonder about is what you bolt to that engine. The factory tranny would disintegrate in a second at that much power. The clutch might make a mile before it's gone.

I have every intention of "touching" my R. It has 8K on the odo and the warranty is in full play right now. After a while I'll pull the DMF clutch and change to a higher power SMF clutch. It's not too hard to burn out the factory unit. I did that on my GTI. The R has the same clutch...so it's a matter of time! OF course I was doing a lot more launches in the GTI than I do in the R...that might have helped it along prematurely. =)
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by Ianhill » Jun 07 2019 2:53pm

Mods like that are ideal just make what it has more usable for a track so take longer to heat soak etc, jealous is not the word ;)

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by ElectricGod » Jun 07 2019 4:52pm

Ianhill wrote:
Jun 07 2019 2:53pm
Mods like that are ideal just make what it has more usable for a track so take longer to heat soak etc, jealous is not the word ;)
Jealous...lol...it's a POS...haha! Hopefully I'll be driving this car for a looong time.

I was talking to a coworker today. He has a BMW. We were talking about doing some track racing...which would be fun. I'm sure it would show me just what an amateur driver I really am! I sure do NOT want to wreck it!
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by Ianhill » Jun 07 2019 5:01pm

ElectricGod wrote:
Jun 07 2019 4:52pm
Ianhill wrote:
Jun 07 2019 2:53pm
Mods like that are ideal just make what it has more usable for a track so take longer to heat soak etc, jealous is not the word ;)
Jealous...lol...it's a POS...haha! Hopefully I'll be driving this car for a looong time.

I was talking to a coworker today. He has a BMW. We were talking about doing some track racing...which would be fun. I'm sure it would show me just what an amateur driver I really am! I sure do NOT want to wreck it!

You be fine drive to your limits you sound a decent driver like cars not your first rodeo, looking at the b series 2.0 it need e85 and 3 bar turbo pressure lol it's more or less a early 70s f1 engine and it will last about as long.

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by ElectricGod » Aug 14 2019 1:55pm

I've been working on a scooter for a local friend. It's been a giant time and energy suck that has stopped everything else.

Big changes made:
1. Total rewire to eliminate the chinesium garbage. There were connections just twisted together and taped up. for some stuff it switched batt+, other stuff batt-. Everything switches +12v now. Battery wires were 14 awg.
2. DC-DC converter for 12v stuff.
3. LED conversion, actual working directionals
4. PV 12 fet controller with module
5. 16S/66v LIPO pack instead of 48v SLA pack that was 8X larger and heavier.

The original controller was barely able to get 15mph out of the motor and you had to push off to get moving. With the PV controller and much more current capability, the scooter does 40mph and you just pick up your foot and go. The hub motor is pretty good and not getting too warm despite a lot more current. It pulls up decent hills and does not slow down with my 240 pounds on it. The EV lost about 70 pounds worth of SLA's. The battery box is less than 1/5th full now and has the exact same capacity at more voltage and current. When it's working it's a great scooter now with decent acceleration and top speed.

Then there is the issue from hell that will not ever go away no matter what I do to fix it! There's no reason that I can determine. I've spent at least 50 hours on this one issue to track it down! It randomly kills hall throttles. I've installed 3 brand new throttles and replaced the halls like 10 times in 2 of them. The third throttle is waiting for me to replace the hall in it that this EV killed. There's no shorts, no over voltage, nothing that would kill the throttle hall, but it happens over and over again. I'll put my DMM across ground and +5v and turn on the scooter. I get 4.6v..not 8 or 9v like would kill a hall! Test the throttle before installing it and its working. Connect just power to the throttle and measure the voltage swing on the throttle wire and it's working. Connect the throttle signal to the EV and the hall has a very limited life span. Sometimes I get seconds and it's dead. Other times I get miles and then the throttle is dead. Connect the throttle direct to the controller eliminating all intermediary wiring and it dies. I've even tried a second PV controller and the same thing happens! I added a 10uf cap at the throttle across ground and 5v...nope still kills throttles. Both PV controllers make the correct voltage. I've run all new wire for the throttle twice...nope kills throttles! I've tested every wire looking for a single strand or whatever that is causing a sneak circuit somewhere...nothing. My DMM on it's lowest resistance setting does not detect resistance between wires. On voltage, it doesn't show a voltage between wires that should not be there. I've closely scrutinized every terminal and connection looking for crossed wires...nothing. I'm getting a Magura POT throttle. frock the $65 cost! This EV and it BS throttle issues are making me want to destroy something!!!!! This issue has been dogging me for the last 2 months and there is no electrical reason for it. The damned thing must be cursed! what the frock makes this sort of thing happen?! A POT throttle is pretty hard to damage. Maybe I'm finally done with the damned thing when that gets here! I can't return the scooter to it's owner if I can't keep it running for more than 5 minutes!

Anyway ZERO progress on the motor rewind or anything else becasue of that scooter from hell.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by ElectricGod » Oct 18 2019 1:09am

Finally!That stupid scooter is done and out of my hair. I've done other stuff too in the process, but now I can get back to the XB-502 and getting it on the road with the rewound RV-120.

I ended up replacing the hub motor in that stupid scooter. It has a short or scratch in the windings that at random arcs to the stator or the next phase and randomly blows controllers and other hardware. The irony is I told my friend way back when that replacing the motor was a good idea. As it turns out, it WAS the cause for all the problems.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

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Re: E-Bike XB-502 conversion project

Post by ElectricGod » Oct 29 2019 12:29pm

I bought a Nucular 24 fet for the XB-502 which arrived a few days ago. The motor will run better on FOC and the Nucular 24 fet can do 500 phase amps peak so that ought to keep up with the rewound 120 outrunner.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

Benjamin Franklin - "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do."

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