trackbike codename NODLEHS

laapmetot

100 mW
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
44
hi guys,

I'm planning on building an electric trackbike, already working on the batteries here https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=86449&p=1265000#p1265000 I will make some threads for modules to keep it more or less organized, this would be the thread where it all comes together.

Thinking to use a Ducati monster 1100 as a basis because:
- it has a front section frame on which custom billet frameplates can be mounted easily (if there is such a thing) to fit the engine
- the suspension and swingarm allow for emrax engine placement
- has nice ohlins suspension and brembo brakes already
- should be cheap available with shot engine :twisted:

Obviously hidious seat must go, already threw on a fairing just to verify spaceclaims. See preliminary CAD for engine, controller and battery placement
 

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Look up the Buckeye Current machine as they used the EMRAX motor to good effect.

The Evo motor is heavier than the EMRAX for sure, but it has a higher continuous rating. Emrax isn't exactly a compact motor either. Besides you can't buy an Evo motor any more... but you can buy something very similar to it ;) I'll let you know more about this once the dust has settled but there will be options available shortly.

Looking forward to seeing how this develops. You might find the Ducati frame limits you to how much space you can take advantage of.
 
ok will check out that thread. Indeed frame is a bit narrow as its a twin, going to design a preliminary pack and see how that spoons in. I also like the ducati monster as it comes in at 167kg dry which is a good start. Didnt commit to anything yet, first want to make the right big decisions.
 
indeed, frame is narrow...... when I stack as per picture, it has a 8kWh pack with 500 batteries. That would be ok however this odd shaped pack is likely not going to work as its very impractical to fabricate and get all the connections properly done, not to mention it will be hard to get all the pheripicals placed. COG could also be lower with a wider frame. So going to see if I can use the front section of a 4inline frame and weld custom sections on that to allow for more width. Still going to use the rear arm of the monster as that fits very nicely with the emrax.
 

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I would consider the 848/1098/1198 frame before the M1100 for the following reasons:

1) The 848/1098/1198 frame has no left to right cross members to contend with. Ducati was able to do that by using larger diameter perimeter tubing. This will facilitate much easier battery design & construction.

2) The 848/1098/1198 frame supports the pivot of the swingarm where as the M1100 uses bearings in the ICE engine case and some bolt on foot pegs. Swingarm pivot support is crucial as you corner at race speeds.

3) Nothing makes a better track bike than a bike that has actually been raced as the 848/1098/1198's were. Thousands of hours of engineering have gone into the 848/1098/1198 for racing purposes versus zero hours into the M1100.

If you haven't bought any bits yet, do a bit of research on 848/1098/1198. I think you'll be surprised at how much different they really are.

PM me here if you'd like. I have an 848 race bike in my garage if you want photos.
 
hm interesting will look into that!

For battery placement, when using a random 4inline deltabox this give lots of extra room so worth to consider, see pics
 

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Although you have strong reasons for using an I4 ICE frame, I would consider using the swingarm which was designed with that frame in mind. The M1100's linkage-less rear suspension is inferior when used at the limit. Perhaps getting away from Ducati bits altogether may prove less expensive with a superior result.

I really like your modeling work and I hope to see a electric superbike someday based on Ducati chassis engineering. I've ridden the Japanese superbikes as well as the Ducati's and I prefer the Italian bits myself.

Good luck with the project. I'll be watching no matter what you choose! I remain at your disposal should you need.

Stuart
 
hi stuart thanks! I hear what you say and agree. However, so far I didnt find a swingarm except this one that would allow the clearance the motor needs. In the picture you can see what I mean. Reason for that is in most bikes the linkage/shock assembly is in that exact area. Placing the engine forward is an option, however that will give issues with the chain, and also takes up considerable room forcing the batteries upward and compromising COG. Hopefully the monster arm is going to perform good enough with a proper ohlins shock. As I'm not a professional I wont find the limits I guess :mrgreen: (and I really like the single arm from a design perspective, so there is that)
 

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Unless your motor to rear axle ratio is something near 3.5 to 4:1, you'll need to consider something w/regard to the rear sprocket. Because of the swingarm clearing the left side of the rear tire, it will limit the size of the rear sprocket. Maybe use a lay-shaft to make a ratio change?
 
Sprocket size shouldn't be a problem. Here is an example that uses this motor. I don't know offhand but it looks like a low kV motor based on the gearing. Almost like a hub (it is an outrunner) but mid drive. Cool project and nice modeling! I look forward to seeing this progress.
 

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with the emrax making 4000 rpm at peak horsepower a 18-37 ratio will result in a 230kph. This will fit the monster arm , and at 5000 rpm with field weakening its 288 kph. I think that is ok. In the picture you see clearly why I dont want to use this setup: where are you going to place the batteries? Also not a fan of gear reductions: they eat power, take up precious space and add weight. I rather sacrifice some top speed to keep it simple and tidy. Given the ratio they use for this particular bike: they might aim for top speed runs with small battery pack.
 
Cool Project. One thing missing is why are you building it and what is your budget?

I did some cad puzzling with different frames I found on the internet, one of them is a duc monster frame. Way too narrow to use for alot of batteries.
One thing to look into is having the motor sprocket inline with the swing arm pivot, this frees up space for batteries and has the chain not changing its tension.

Some puzzling I did below.
 

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You might want to look at the ManTTXGP bike that raced on the Isle of Man and TTXGP in the early days.

They used a Ducati frame and had all sorts of problems fitting enough cells in to the space. The frame was far too narrow.
 
jonescg said:
The Evo motor is heavier than the EMRAX for sure, but it has a higher continuous rating. Emrax isn't exactly a compact motor either. Besides you can't buy an Evo motor any more... but you can buy something very similar to it ;) I'll let you know more about this once the dust has settled but there will be options available shortly.

What's wrong with the lighter Yasa P400HC motor?
 
Mike Edwards said:
jonescg said:
The Evo motor is heavier than the EMRAX for sure, but it has a higher continuous rating. Emrax isn't exactly a compact motor either. Besides you can't buy an Evo motor any more... but you can buy something very similar to it ;) I'll let you know more about this once the dust has settled but there will be options available shortly.

What's wrong with the lighter Yasa P400HC motor?

Affordability is the obvious one. Followed by the complete absence of support from the manufacturer. Between them and Sevcon I'd say they conspired to make sure nobody bought their products :lol:
 
jonescg said:
Affordability is the obvious one. Followed by the complete absence of support from the manufacturer. Between them and Sevcon I'd say they conspired to make sure nobody bought their products :lol:

Can't argue with that. Anyone would think Yasa really don't want to sell anything in volumes of less than a hundred. Pity really as they are based less than half an hour away from home. Sevcon are definitely an improvement over Yasa.
 
well, just because I can :mrgreen: I have an engineering company and looking for a cool project for marketing purposes, and also its fun to do as I'm into motorcycles and racing. Aiming to participate at motoE competition. Budget not clear, I'm now in the research stage and projectplan would be first on the list. Already know its expensive.........
 
laapmetot said:
well, just because I can :mrgreen: I have an engineering company and looking for a cool project for marketing purposes, and also its fun to do as I'm into motorcycles and racing. Aiming to participate at motoE competition. Budget not clear, I'm now in the research stage and projectplan would be first on the list. Already know its expensive.........

Having a plans step one but do you know whether your budget is £10K, £50K, £100K, or more?
 
hope to stay under 50K for out of pockets, excluding hours and excluding running costs for racing 1 bike. Quick summary:

battery pack 10K
BMS 3K
Engine 6K
charger 3K
controller 3K
bike excluding drive train 15K
misc 10K
total 50k
 
Those numbers sound about right. A decent inverter might be closer to 5000 Pstg. Motor is spot on though - I paid 6000 Pstg for my Evo motor back in 2013. The battery pack will be the cheapest part of your build, probably well less than 10k Pstg. My 9 kWh battery came to about AUD$8,000.
 
jonescg said:
Those numbers sound about right. A decent inverter might be closer to 5000 Pstg. Motor is spot on though - I paid 6000 Pstg for my Evo motor back in 2013. The battery pack will be the cheapest part of your build, probably well less than 10k Pstg. My 9 kWh battery came to about AUD$8,000.

Hey Chris whats the specs on that pack?

Cheers Conrad
 
Voltron's battery pack?

It's a 6 kWh pack, 186s2p using 40C cells. Including the enclosure, contactors and fuses etc, it weighs in at just under 54 kg.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1079141#p1079141
 
jonescg said:
Voltron's battery pack?

It's a 6 kWh pack, 186s2p using 40C cells. Including the enclosure, contactors and fuses etc, it weighs in at just under 54 kg.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1079141#p1079141

Yes so thats 186 x 3.7 volt?

Thats great weight mate.

Cheers Kiwi
 
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