Sevcon 75-7 Wiring Harness - Pilot Production

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.

Sevcon 75-7 Wiring Harness - Pilot Production

Postby methods » Mon May 29, 2017 1:25 pm

If you have been following we have taken an interest in the Sevcon Gen 4. Here are some pics of pilot production on a harness aimed at the 75-7 motor.

Hardware003.jpg


mmmm... the Sevcon. We are becoming very familiar with it. Those two came in from an enthusiast in the East Bay who has built a DIY motorcycle. You can see at least one of them came from a Euro-spec Zero as it has the homologation aluminum tape on it. Those are the donor orgrans we are using for the hardware decompile.

Hardware004.jpg


We cranked out one harness for a demo and now we are doing a run of 5. In the background you can see some other projects we are working on including integration of the Clear View for another enthusiast who has several projects in the works. We are lucky in that others are busy and we are tooled up so we get the opportunity to familiarize with costs offset. We are starting to see equipment coming in from the field in need of repair, retrofit, and upgrade. The BMS we are working on will support the Zero cell boxes as well as cell counts down to 4S for Lead Acid replacement efforts (complete with Hard LVC).


Hardware014.jpg


We have taken the following approach:

Encoder: We are maintaining plug and play compatibility with the 75-7 Motor Delphi connector. (I do not care for this connector series)

Contactor: We are maintaining plug and play compatibility with the Weather Pack connectors. (I do not care for this connector series, but they come in pigtails)

User Interface: We bring all of the user interface out to a 12 pin Amphenal AT series (which I REALLY like)

* Key-On - 2 wires fused to ring terminal battery side
* Enable - 1 wire referenced to Switch Ground (interlock in the powered up state - wired to an Estop on the bench and a switch in the throttle for the field)
* Throttle - 3 wires with a home run on ground
* Fwd/Rev - 2 wires referencing Switch Ground (Center position doubles as second interlock with a SPDT)
* Profile B/1/2 - 2 wires referencing Switch Ground (Base, Profile 1, Profile 2 using a SPDT)
* CAN - 3 wires with a home run on ground to a standard DB9
* Sevcon Clear View - TBD, have to read up on the interface

* Switch ground - 1 wire (REQUIRED - as Vbat/2 is supplied to these switches and you dont want that current on your throttle ground)

Hardware017.jpg


So the idea is that we can build ahead on a "shorty harness" which does not address specific user requirements on length and accessories. This drives down cost and lead time. The 12pin AT connector can be supplied pigtailed out or turn key to match specific customer needs on length and connectors for all of the above.

We are still working out details on which features to bring out and which to leave... so if you have requests make them known and we will accommodate where reasonable.

Price on these wont be competitive with OEM offerings as Engineering hours are being spent in their development. We hope to bring volume up to a point where we can offer these at a reasonable price to enthusiasts. We have ALL been waiting for Zero Motorcycles to release their "Power System"... but years into this wait... we still are not seeing it. I have had people drive from all over the state looking to secure one of these systems and what they are faced with is the option of buying an entire bike, scraping the bike, and utilizing the Battery, Controller, MBB, etc.

Trouble with this is that the Zero harness is quite complex... The MBB is integrated and not open source...

Really most of our requests are from people who can handle aux requirements like lighting... they are not running ABS or any sort of advanced requirements. A simple CA on the handlebars, control over the Sevcon, and a clean harness is the ticket to success.

As for batteries... look out in the next 3 months as I saw something VERY JUICY in the works a couple days ago. We all have a hard-on for the Zero Cell Boxes but they are still near impossible to find... and even with dealer status it is difficult to procure the BMS, harness, and contactor to outfit them properly. In-Production parts can be had... but all legacy gear is being held tight by Zero in order to service fielded items (so - good luck buying new-old stock... ain't going to happen)

Its a shame that we are having to grind this out from the ground up... but thats what you gotta do sometimes to get the ball rolling.

I will update this thread with pics as time allows for harness completion.
As with all efforts... early adopters drive the design... so it may not be the ultimate general solution... but it will meet customer requirements for the most part.

thanks,
-methods
Honda
The current reasons I do not daily drive a pure EV:
* Lease mileage caps. I commute a minimum of 26,000 miles a year + weekends.
* I drive a minimum of 100 miles a day and can not trust that I can charge on location - so I need a 100+ mile range.
* I want to tinker... can I tinker on my Lease Car if I share the R&D?
* Weather - I need an enclosed vehicle. Motorcycle wont fly with a 5yo in the rain.
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Re: Sevcon 75-7 Wiring Harness - Pilot Production

Postby Doctorbass » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:53 am

methods wrote:If you have been following we have taken an interest in the Sevcon Gen 4. Here are some pics of pilot production on a harness aimed at the 75-7 motor.

Hardware003.jpg


mmmm... the Sevcon. We are becoming very familiar with it. Those two came in from an enthusiast in the East Bay who has built a DIY motorcycle. You can see at least one of them came from a Euro-spec Zero as it has the homologation aluminum tape on it. Those are the donor orgrans we are using for the hardware decompile.

Hardware004.jpg


We cranked out one harness for a demo and now we are doing a run of 5. In the background you can see some other projects we are working on including integration of the Clear View for another enthusiast who has several projects in the works. We are lucky in that others are busy and we are tooled up so we get the opportunity to familiarize with costs offset. We are starting to see equipment coming in from the field in need of repair, retrofit, and upgrade. The BMS we are working on will support the Zero cell boxes as well as cell counts down to 4S for Lead Acid replacement efforts (complete with Hard LVC).



Hardware014.jpg


We have taken the following approach:

Encoder: We are maintaining plug and play compatibility with the 75-7 Motor Delphi connector. (I do not care for this connector series)

Contactor: We are maintaining plug and play compatibility with the Weather Pack connectors. (I do not care for this connector series, but they come in pigtails)

User Interface: We bring all of the user interface out to a 12 pin Amphenal AT series (which I REALLY like)

* Key-On - 2 wires fused to ring terminal battery side
* Enable - 1 wire referenced to Switch Ground (interlock in the powered up state - wired to an Estop on the bench and a switch in the throttle for the field)
* Throttle - 3 wires with a home run on ground
* Fwd/Rev - 2 wires referencing Switch Ground (Center position doubles as second interlock with a SPDT)
* Profile B/1/2 - 2 wires referencing Switch Ground (Base, Profile 1, Profile 2 using a SPDT)
* CAN - 3 wires with a home run on ground to a standard DB9
* Sevcon Clear View - TBD, have to read up on the interface

* Switch ground - 1 wire (REQUIRED - as Vbat/2 is supplied to these switches and you dont want that current on your throttle ground)

Hardware017.jpg


So the idea is that we can build ahead on a "shorty harness" which does not address specific user requirements on length and accessories. This drives down cost and lead time. The 12pin AT connector can be supplied pigtailed out or turn key to match specific customer needs on length and connectors for all of the above.

We are still working out details on which features to bring out and which to leave... so if you have requests make them known and we will accommodate where reasonable.

Price on these wont be competitive with OEM offerings as Engineering hours are being spent in their development. We hope to bring volume up to a point where we can offer these at a reasonable price to enthusiasts. We have ALL been waiting for Zero Motorcycles to release their "Power System"... but years into this wait... we still are not seeing it. I have had people drive from all over the state looking to secure one of these systems and what they are faced with is the option of buying an entire bike, scraping the bike, and utilizing the Battery, Controller, MBB, etc.

Trouble with this is that the Zero harness is quite complex... The MBB is integrated and not open source...

Really most of our requests are from people who can handle aux requirements like lighting... they are not running ABS or any sort of advanced requirements. A simple CA on the handlebars, control over the Sevcon, and a clean harness is the ticket to success.

As for batteries... look out in the next 3 months as I saw something VERY JUICY in the works a couple days ago. We all have a hard-on for the Zero Cell Boxes but they are still near impossible to find... and even with dealer status it is difficult to procure the BMS, harness, and contactor to outfit them properly. In-Production parts can be had... but all legacy gear is being held tight by Zero in order to service fielded items (so - good luck buying new-old stock... ain't going to happen)

Its a shame that we are having to grind this out from the ground up... but thats what you gotta do sometimes to get the ball rolling.

I will update this thread with pics as time allows for harness completion.
As with all efforts... early adopters drive the design... so it may not be the ultimate general solution... but it will meet customer requirements for the most part.

thanks,
-methods


Hey Methods all of your great work will i'm sure help alot !!

btw i have here a monolith 11.4 ( a 2013 one) and few 2013 and 2014 brick and 3 working BMS from the 2013 and 2014 and also 2 of the 2012 BMS. Even If you develop independent BMS or communicating interface for these battery let me know!

all i know from now is that these BMS seem to enable with some SYSTEM ON signal loop to activate the BMs and maybe contactor and also THROTTLE ENABLE signal output when all cells are ok from teh BMS.

There is a nearly complete schematic of the Zero 2013 S you can get here:
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/File:ZeroWireDrawing_2013_S_11-4_R-1-3-0_no-grid_highRes.pdf

i also tried to identify all the wiring on te multipin connector of the 2013 but it is not confirmed:

Image



This Unnoficial Zero manual that Burton made is well made!

Doc
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Re: Sevcon 75-7 Wiring Harness - Pilot Production

Postby methods » Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:25 pm

Lessons from the Field:

Issue: Selection of assignment of DIO's on 35 pin connector

I knew I should have just followed some standard... but of course I followed my own... and ran into a hitch.
Sevcon ClearView... which is not easy to program without the password - even with backdoor access - has expectations about pin assignments
Each one is different - which tells me it IS programmable (as the documentation suggests) but... sigh... what I have in front of me is what I have

Lesson: We made all of our harnesses "shorty" - such that all the DIO and AIO comes out 12" to a 12pin connector

Turns out this was wise... as we can now just re-assign usage on the other side of the 12" and we dont have to re-pin the Sevcon (which you can do.... but causes wear and unreliability)

Another HUGE issue is when it comes time to test then ship a customers harness... each and every function must be tested and known good.
Each customer has a totally different setup
So... for now I am re-jigging my house harness (12pin out to Throttle, Regen, FWD, REV, Profile 1, Profile 2)
As standards settle I will just make one of each of the flavors which are most common
So - we lose some color coding but lose no time - other than the 24 crimps and cuts - that it takes for the harness

Nobody I respect ships a firmware system or harness without ACTUALLY TESTING IT as it will be used... so .. thats the cost of doing business.
When our product arrives it works, we know it works, so if it does not work... it is on the receiving end and not our end :wink:

As a small business man who has eaten losses more than a few times... I can tell you that nothing is more important than absolutely KNOWING that what you shipped to your customer is in perfect working order. Customers have an amazing ability to cast doubt and send you chasing your tail (which is totally natural). I learned from Justin @ Grin that the best defense is a good offense.

So - I am off to crimp some more pins while I wait for my knight in shining armor to appear
(Person who wants to crimp like a mad dog @ $20/hr with zero mistakes)

-methods
Honda
The current reasons I do not daily drive a pure EV:
* Lease mileage caps. I commute a minimum of 26,000 miles a year + weekends.
* I drive a minimum of 100 miles a day and can not trust that I can charge on location - so I need a 100+ mile range.
* I want to tinker... can I tinker on my Lease Car if I share the R&D?
* Weather - I need an enclosed vehicle. Motorcycle wont fly with a 5yo in the rain.
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