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EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Oct 25, 2017 2:01 pm
by E-Zero
Hello out there!

I want to ask if anybody in the EU has registered or tried to register his/her motorcycle electrification project (ICE to electric).

I am doing some research and I have not been able to find any so some help or info would be welcome.

BTW got nothing against UK but their registration process is not applicable in the rest of EU ( sadly).

Thanks in advance!!!

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Oct 25, 2017 2:40 pm
by Cephalotus

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Oct 25, 2017 4:31 pm
by E-Zero
Thanks, I 'll proceed to read!

As much info I can gather the best!

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Jan 17, 2018 11:29 am
by E-Zero
Sadly looks like nobody has the info I´m looking for...

Maybe it is not possible in EU...
How do you legalize conversions in the USA? or any other country?

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Jan 17, 2018 1:05 pm
by Dauntless
E-Zero wrote:
Jan 17, 2018 11:29 am
Sadly looks like nobody has the info I´m looking for...

Maybe it is not possible in EU...
How do you legalize conversions in the USA? or any other country?
In the U.S. it's at the individual state level. In California if it starts out as a gas automobile it will be required to have an emissions test after 4 years then ever 2 years after. Electrics aren't requiring that. I don't know that there's anywhere requiring motorcycle tests. All the lights, etc., are already there, not much to it from the DMV standpoint beyond paperwork.

I'm not sure what you think would be a problem in Europe with a vehicle that was legal getting a powerplant swap.

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Jan 17, 2018 1:11 pm
by NickF23
Have you tried asking here

https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php

Seems a little easier in the UK, for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwD2YPFuPtQ

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Jan 19, 2018 12:27 pm
by ScooterMan101
Here in California , once someone changes a Motorcycle engine , frame , etc. , or buys a Salvage Title used Motorcycle and they want to get it licensed , they have to go to a CHP ( California Highway Patrol ) Office that does ... Inspections , and have a CHP officer look at the M.C. to see that it has all the required items like Lights/Mirrors/Horn/Turn Signals/Brake Light/Licence plate behind the rear of the rear tire, with two red reflectors on the plate / plate holder that is just in back of the plate by at least a couple of mm's , and other items I have forgotten about. Once it passes the inspection you can then take the signed off paperwork from the CHP and go to your local DMV office and get new registration and licence plate.

We also have a special program that once a year a small number of people who build their own vehicles can go to the nearest CHP inspection office and go the same process.
There are only a small number of people who can do that each year , and it is for a short period of time. So a person here might have to wait until the next year to get the vehicle on the Road.

E-Zero wrote:
Jan 17, 2018 11:29 am
Sadly looks like nobody has the info I´m looking for...

Maybe it is not possible in EU...
How do you legalize conversions in the USA? or any other country?

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Jan 29, 2018 2:26 pm
by Truusje79
Not want to discourage you in your attempt to license your transformed ICE motorcycle or scooter to electric ( which involves insurance, paperwork, VIN numbers, and possible Certificate of Conformity papers and EMC approval ) but I tried to get some info on this topic, digging deep and hard in Belgium and the Netherlands, but it is pretty much impossible unless you got.

A: Deep pockets, some company, I believe TüV Sud and Dare!! Benelux told me that the EMC alone in order to get the CoC for a single (D.I.Y made vehicle ) would run in the thousands of euro's, I was quoted between 8000 and 12000,- Euro to get my Electrified KMX EMC approved as an electric vehicle, this is of course when I got the test/approval right the first time.....then when this is done, you would need a one-off type approval and get some ( new ) VIN numbers stamped onto your frame, after that you can get your vehicle licensed and insured, and all the other paperwork in order,you can imagine you also need....

B: Incredible patience, you're in for the long haul, this is gonna take endless time and effort to get it right, and if it would be for a manufacturer that is planning to sell 10's of thousands of vehicles in the EU than this is a small turd to swallow, for the Hobby Bob that is fabricobbling his own vehicle in the backyard shed, this is pretty much impossible.

If you want my honest opinion, this needless red tape that the EU is putting up even for one-off's is what holding back the electrification of our continent, some rules need to be in place to avoid accidents and deaths due to some guys that weld a frame together with a stick welder and some car batteries doing 95kmh on a bike trail, but i'm sure that a lot of people know what they are doing and are quite sensible ( on account of seeing so many beautiful and sound creations here on ES )
But unfortunately this is a big boy's game that is being played by large car manufacturers that lobby their asses off in Brussels, they don´t need more competition, thank you very much....just eat what you get on your plate from us. (Signed, the car manufacturers ;-) )

It will be a long time before guys like Jehugarcia,( see youtube ) to drive around in a electrified VW T1 Samba without a windscreen with his dog on the passenger seat and a bunch of second hand laptop 18650's strapped under the floor, to happen in Europe....

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Feb 07, 2018 3:43 pm
by E-Zero
Thank you for your comments... I am realising how impossible this is in EU... I wonder if we could change the legislation... So much envy from US sometimes.

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Feb 08, 2018 3:48 pm
by stamen
Hey E-Zero I'm actually trying to figure out the exact same thing at the moment. I lived in the US and recently moved to Austria. I also have an E-moto conversion that I was working on, but wasn't able to finish it before I moved. My plan was to ship it over here and register it. I have spoken with co-workers (I work in the motorcycle industry), Zero Motorcycle dealers, and even the Austria government official responsible for certifying road legal cars and the consensus seems to be that it is close to impossible or incredibly expensive (mainly due to the EMF testing) especially in my case where I have a custom frame. Every little thing needs to be certified and approved. And even if you manage to get all the approvals I don't even know how an insurance company would insure it. In my experience so far things in Europe seem very restricted when it comes to custom vehicle projects. In Austria if you change your rims you have to notify the officials that they are not the originals so go figure how hard it will be registering a custom built electric motorcycle. :lol:

Everything that Truusje79 said lines up with my research over the past couple of months which is why I gave up on the idea and instead decided to make it a track bike! 8)

Good luck and keep us posted. I have one more phone call to make to another government agency and I will let you know if the information there is in anyway optimistic.

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Feb 13, 2018 12:38 pm
by macribs
The insurance is not the hard part, if you get your plates the insurance companies are required to offer at least the simplest form of insurance, the liability part. They do however make most of their money on their expanded packages so if you get your liability insurance, chances are good they will offer you theft, roadside assistance, fire, etc.

Then again, if they really don't want your business they will jack up their prices so high for the liability part that you will run away screaming and never come knocking again.

There have been a few bikes scattered around EU that have been build and later have gotten plates. AFAIk they have all been build and approved as a one-off build. Problem is that there are individual laws for the one-off builds within EU so your mileage may vary.

A couple of builds comes to mind.
One white colored Vector was build by one ES member in the UK, it had plates as a 45 km/h moped. Then there was a home made bomber style a few years before that. A black bike done in Austria or Germany iirc. It also got approved. Search for those build threads or in the for sale section. The black diy bomber was a detailed build thread, some half naked welding scenes I seem to remember as I never seen anyone weld with their shirt off before, and also a part where he wrote something about the approval process, what it costs, how he went about it etc.

AFAIK you can buy a bike that is road legal in one EU member stated and export the bike into another EU state, and the approval will follow. The might lead you to find the country with least problems for approving one-offs Get your build road legal in that country and export/import it to your own country.

However some strange things that might prevent the export idea is worth checking firmly before importing. I did try to buy a converted approved and street legal bike from the UK some time ago, unfortunately Norway as a EEA member had some crazy rules for one-offs so I had to drop it due to need for TÜV approval. Later on I was informed that the paper from TÜV is not really that expensive because it is not a full COC like car/motorcycle manufacturers get, so more like 1000-1200 € and not 10 times as much. Bike in question was already sold by the time I learned that so I did not follow up and check with TÜV but you might wanna do that.

First check with your local DMV. Ask them what is the requirement. Ask them in details what they need from tüv if any. And ask them how to get it done at the least costly way.

*** I know here in Norway tüv has become the defacto go to third party company to seek when in the need for approval. However, going the TÜV route come with a rather big financial cost. There are not that many companies in Norway that do big custom work for vehicles that require approval from third party and the few that do uses tüv. The actually brings the vehicle in question down to Germany to a tüv station and get the inspection and approval done in Germany and take the paper works back to the Norwegian DMV that releases the new plates and pink slip based on the german tüv approved papers.

However, there must be more companies like tüv that are cheaper? In Poland, Lithuanian, Ukraine, maybe? If you live close might be worth checking out.

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Feb 22, 2018 3:04 pm
by zerous
I have two builds road legal in Sweden.

First one is a Kawasaki 1982. In 2013 i contacted my local vehicle inspection station and talked with inspection engineer and explained what i wanted to do and build. He approved my conversion without any problems as changed vehicle. As I understand it it was first time in his life he saw electric motorcycle.

2016 I converted Cagiva Mito 1991. This time it was not so easy, I needed to get an aproval from SFRO ( swedish vehicle home builders organisation) for aproval of my conversion. When that was done vehicle was aproved at vehicle inspection station as changed vehicle.

According to regulations in Sweden a changed vehicle need to have upgraded motor and upgraded brakes or changed steering. Those rules is there becouse of ICE vehicles where builders in most cases put in stronger motor. In my case i argumented and said I put in a weaker electric motor and there is no reason to upgrade brakes. And there was no need fo noise test...

I know there was guy in sweden who converted a car to electric. He appealed against need to go through SFRO since he only changed motor and installed battery and i think he won that case against transport authority.

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Apr 11, 2018 3:55 am
by E-Zero
Wow! I´d love to see that Mito conversion!!! It came to mind to me when I reviewed that bike, it almost looked electric back in the 90s!!!

Well it looks that in Sweeden you have an organ to make conversions, first time I hear about that in EU, unfortunately I´m afraid that I would be impossible to import that to any other EU country... :(

Would it be possible to get more info on that project and legalisation procedure?

Thanks!

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Apr 16, 2018 7:49 am
by Punx0r
Could you have the bike tested/certified in another country (where the rules are more friendly to one-off vehicles) and "import" it to your home country?

I have known people from the UK who lived in an EU country, but used their UK car and didn't register it in their new home country. The only requirement was once per year the had to return to the UK for an MOT (road-worthiness test).

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Apr 29, 2018 4:13 pm
by eee291
I asked a guy I know who converted a few Cars, and he told me it costs 680 EUR without insurance etc. no matter the type of vehicle. I haven't pried into it further because I'm converting a moped for offroad usage.

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Jun 05, 2018 2:47 pm
by zerous
E-Zero wrote:
Apr 11, 2018 3:55 am
Wow! I´d love to see that Mito conversion!!! It came to mind to me when I reviewed that bike, it almost looked electric back in the 90s!!!

Well it looks that in Sweeden you have an organ to make conversions, first time I hear about that in EU, unfortunately I´m afraid that I would be impossible to import that to any other EU country... :(

Would it be possible to get more info on that project and legalisation procedure?

Thanks!
Here is one picture

https://photos.app.goo.gl/uN5KDqqDC85kKTul2

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Jun 06, 2018 2:13 am
by phate
E-Zero wrote:
Jan 17, 2018 11:29 am

Maybe it is not possible in EU...
How do you legalize conversions in the USA? or any other country?
In the US it varies by state, but at least here in New York as long as it started as a road-legal vehicle, and you retain all the things that make it street legal (headlight/taillight/turn signals/horn/etc), you can pretty much just register it just like you would any motorcycle that you purchased, and change the "fuel type" checkbox to "electric" rather than "gasoline".

This won't let you register or get plates for a vehicle that you would not have otherwise been able to register, but in general if you would have no problems putting the bike on the road with a gas engine, you won't have a problem doing so once it's converted.

There's a whole process for getting custom built bikes registered, and it's way more involved.

So for my project, the donor bike really only needs to have a valid title. Everything else (full fairing, sport/sport touring, 4 cylinder engine that preferably does not run, etc) are all just wants that would make my project easier.

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Jun 07, 2018 1:07 am
by flippy
in the EU it is almost impossible and extremely costly. for europeans it is cheapest to get a british frame/car, do the conversions you want, get it approved in england and then import it legally into to your country, they have to accept it if it already is approved in the UK.
you can buy it in england and then take it back so you can do the conversion at home but you have to take it back to england for approval and export.

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Jun 07, 2018 2:10 am
by Bikebrap
E-Zero wrote:
Oct 25, 2017 2:01 pm
Hello out there!

I want to ask if anybody in the EU has registered or tried to register his/her motorcycle electrification project (ICE to electric).

I am doing some research and I have not been able to find any so some help or info would be welcome.

BTW got nothing against UK but their registration process is not applicable in the rest of EU ( sadly).

Thanks in advance!!!
Hello
I have done this right now
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=93048&p=1361225#p1361225

It is conversion of an old Cagiva motorcycle to electric in Croatia, so if you have any specific questions fell free to pm

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Jun 07, 2018 4:03 am
by Epic_current
Hi there,

I'm in the Netherlands and looking into the same thing.
So far I found out the following:

Changing an engine on a road-legal vehicle from ICE to Electric is possible.
However, because it's electric it needs to comply to the regulations which are applicable on the day the vehicle is tested by the RDW (Dutch MOT / tuv) to get an approval.

Regulations are according to 97/24/EG which is the EU regulations, and the vehicle has to comply to appendix 1 - 7 to get an approval
( https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 31997L0024 )
and in addition VN/ECE R10.
( https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 001.01.NLD )

Basically the rules are like any other bike, but in addition there are tests for EMC which means for safety (orange power wires, safety relay, etc.) and for electromagnetic interference.

Here you can check what the RDW have to check during the approval tests (work instruction):
https://www.rdw.nl/zakelijk/branches/fa ... agen/motor

The parts that have to be EMC compliant are only the parts that can have a direct influence on the bike's steering, so * I THINK* only the motor, the controller and maybe the throttle input. Not sure about the battery....

For the EMC-compliance for one-offs for an individual approval, there are several ways.
-The parts used for the bike are EMC-compliant for EU (E-marked parts, see page 39 of VN/ECE R10 ) and this can be checked during the approval by the E-markings or documentation
-It can be shown that the parts have been used in a previously road registered vehicle.


Costs to get it approved are 750-1500 euro's if you have used EMC-compliant parts.


Our goverment asked questions to the responsible minister about the costs being higher than 750 euro in reality for the approval for electric conversions, because they wanted it to be accessible for students, small company's and individuals. But the answer was that it would be around 1500 euro's to get it approved.

If parts are not EMC-compliant for Europe, you have to get it tested at an expensive testing facility. The RDW strongly advises people not to do this buy to use parts that come from a legalized vehicle or use EMC-approved parts.

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Jun 07, 2018 9:39 am
by Epic_current
More info from these guys:

http://rebbl.com/approval-homologation/

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Sep 06, 2018 10:17 am
by zerous
So is it possible if I as example sell my Cagiva to a guy from Germany to register Cagiva in Germany and get german plates or do new owner need to show all certificates like EMC document before registration?

Cagiva is approved and road legal in Sweden.

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Sep 06, 2018 11:42 pm
by flippy
zerous wrote:
Sep 06, 2018 10:17 am
So is it possible if I as example sell my Cagiva to a guy from Germany to register Cagiva in Germany and get german plates or do new owner need to show all certificates like EMC document before registration?
Cagiva is approved and road legal in Sweden.
no, it already has a EU plate so its just a simple import job. it just needs the papers issued in sweden (exluding the owners document ofcourse) for registering it in germany. then it is just a german vehicle.

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Sep 07, 2018 1:35 pm
by macribs
flippy wrote:
Sep 06, 2018 11:42 pm
zerous wrote:
Sep 06, 2018 10:17 am
So is it possible if I as example sell my Cagiva to a guy from Germany to register Cagiva in Germany and get german plates or do new owner need to show all certificates like EMC document before registration?
Cagiva is approved and road legal in Sweden.
no, it already has a EU plate so its just a simple import job. it just needs the papers issued in sweden (exluding the owners document ofcourse) for registering it in germany. then it is just a german vehicle.
It all depends, are the Cagiva stock form? Or did you do a one off conversion to electric and have that build legalized in sweden?
If bike is stock no problem with export. If bike is a one-off problem can be expected. I run into problems when I tried to buy and import a one-off bike from UK to Norway. Norwegian dmv wouldn't give me plates without further documentation from third party companies like Tûv in Germany.

You will need to check with the dmv in Germany before closing the deal to see if it will be smooth sailing and all ok, or if dmv require more documents and possible a third party inspection and validation.

Re: EU Road Legal Electrification (???)

Posted: Sep 11, 2018 7:43 am
by zerous
macribs wrote:
Sep 07, 2018 1:35 pm
flippy wrote:
Sep 06, 2018 11:42 pm
zerous wrote:
Sep 06, 2018 10:17 am
So is it possible if I as example sell my Cagiva to a guy from Germany to register Cagiva in Germany and get german plates or do new owner need to show all certificates like EMC document before registration?
Cagiva is approved and road legal in Sweden.
no, it already has a EU plate so its just a simple import job. it just needs the papers issued in sweden (exluding the owners document ofcourse) for registering it in germany. then it is just a german vehicle.
It all depends, are the Cagiva stock form? Or did you do a one off conversion to electric and have that build legalized in sweden?
If bike is stock no problem with export. If bike is a one-off problem can be expected. I run into problems when I tried to buy and import a one-off bike from UK to Norway. Norwegian dmv wouldn't give me plates without further documentation from third party companies like Tûv in Germany.

You will need to check with the dmv in Germany before closing the deal to see if it will be smooth sailing and all ok, or if dmv require more documents and possible a third party inspection and validation.
Cagiva is one off conversion and fully legalized in Sweden. I thinking about to sell it and want to know how big market is :)