R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

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R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 15, 2018 10:47 pm

I was bored today and was browsing around on craigslist. I came across this R Martin moped for $300. I contacted the seller and found out more about it. It had fallen over, and the throttle, small side panel on the swing arm, mirror and storage box were damaged. Otherwise there is no damage beyond minor rubs in the paint anywhere. The moped has 247 miles on it. The batteries are currently dead. It has 5 60 pound SLA batteries in it which makes the moped ridiculously heavy. I will be pulling them out and replacing them with LION's. I have no idea what works and what doesn't at the moment. The charger is fried and who knows about the batteries, motor and controller...if they are any good or not. I paid all of $260 for it so I'm not overly concerned. This moped will be my next project. It has 13" wheels and the motor is 3kw...kind of weak IMHO. I'll probably look into a QS motor that is the biggest one that will have a 13" rim. I estimate the moped weighs around 350 pounds.

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This is the R Martin next to a 50CC sized electric moped.

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Last edited by ElectricGod on Jan 16, 2018 9:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 15, 2018 11:05 pm

This 8kw hub motor might be my next purchase.

http://www.qs-motor.com/product/13inch- ... otorcycle/
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Re: R Martin Moped build

Post by John in CR » Jan 15, 2018 11:48 pm

That scooter already has the best hubmotor on the planet on it as long as you don't run a pig heavy scooter with it. If you can Keep the all up load at say 400lbs or less and run the smallest 13" tire you can fit, then you'll be on your way to something special.

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R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 16, 2018 1:39 pm

John in CR wrote:
Jan 15, 2018 11:48 pm
That scooter already has the best hubmotor on the planet on it as long as you don't run a pig heavy scooter with it. If you can Keep the all up load at say 400lbs or less and run the smallest 13" tire you can fit, then you'll be on your way to something special.
It's only a 3kw motor...it can't be that great. I'm sure I can over watt it somewhat.

with the 5 SLA's it comes with, the moped weighs almost 400 pounds. Is that categorically "pig heavy"? LOL! It is in my mind for the size of this motor. If I can't accelerate at least as well as a car, then it's simply too weak for the job.

My intention is to remove all the SLA's, use a set of 20,000mah LIPO's for a test bed and see how it does. If the motor is sufficiently strong, it might stay on the moped, but it will need to be able to get out of it's own way for that to happen!

It has 130/60-13 tires on it. Can't get any smaller than that.

Who makes this motor?

I was reading about the motor...6 phase? What's that? Dual BLDC motors inside?
Last edited by ElectricGod on Jan 16, 2018 9:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: R Martin Moped build

Post by SlowCo » Jan 16, 2018 2:10 pm

If John makes a comment like that it might just be a hubmonster 6-phase motor?

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 31&t=46898

If so, no need to change the motor. Just get two large controllers and some serious battery :twisted:

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R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 16, 2018 2:54 pm

I'm reading Johns thread on this motor...I'm in love! I didn't know anything about it. I just assumed is was a lame 3kw BLDC hub and therefore the moped was going to be slow. I read peoples reviews on the moped and they claimed it was fast, but then people think 250 watt bicycle hubs are fast. It's all a matter of perspective I suppose.

I have 2 50CC sized electric mopeds. One came with a 500 watt motor. It couldn't get moving without lots of pushing off and even with a stronger controller and bigger battery pack it was too weak to go faster than 28mph. The other moped at least has a 1kw hub and so it can do a good bit better, but still it's NOT fast.

If I can't accelerate at least as well as decent cars, then the EV is simply too slow. Anything I build, will do that.
Last edited by ElectricGod on Jan 16, 2018 9:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: R Martin Moped build

Post by fechter » Jan 16, 2018 3:54 pm

You might need to tweak the shunt in the controller to get the motor up to it's full potential. :twisted:

Just getting rid of the lead and replacing it with lithium should make a huge improvement over stock. Wild looking brake rear brake light.
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R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 16, 2018 9:16 pm

I have plugged in the charger and it's cooked...bad mosfets and a blown fuse. They ground the part numbers off the mosfets and IC's...WTF?! I'll guess at the mosfets and put the best I can find in there. I thought I would try charging the SLA's and see if it runs or not. I have 3 meanwells in series for 66 volts. I might just turn them down a bit and see if I can charge the SLA's from that. Who knows how old they are. This EV was new in 2007 and I don't know if the batteries have ever been replaced. Even if all I could do was ride around my neighborhood for 10 minutes, that would tell me loads about the moped. At a minimum I need to replace the broken throttle.

Tweaking the controller...
I'd pull the mosfets and replace them with AOT290's or CSD19536KCS, upgrade to higher voltage caps, pull the shunts and replace them with higher wattage ones and then that ought to get the factory controller to it's maximum potential. Who knows, it might just be able to run at 82 volts after that. Hopefully it isn't RPM limited....that would be pointless.

I'd probably just use dual 18 fet PV controllers custom modded by me for 12kw each and NOT deal with the factory controller at all.

There's a DC-DC converter in there somewhere. All the lights are 12 volt. I'd have to find that too and upgrade/replace it as needed.

On a positive note the LCD clock works. I didn't notice until I zoomed in on this picture earlier today. Who cares if the moped runs...I have a working digital clock! The moped has been sitting for a couple of years. I guess the clock has it's own battery.

Image
Last edited by ElectricGod on Jan 16, 2018 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 16, 2018 9:23 pm

I retitled the thread since I now know it has a hubmonster in it.

I googled for the owners manual, but found nothing. Anyone have it?

I did find this set of threads on that "other" forum.

https://visforvoltage.org/forums/electr ... tin-/-evd-

Looks like people upgrade these to 72 volts.
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Re: R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by John in CR » Jan 16, 2018 10:12 pm

82V is probably a bit high for something the weight of a big scooter unless you live in a flat area. Assuming it's a standard wind (18rpm/volt) then a 20s pack will get you well over 60mph, and unless you're heavy like me and can keep the all up load below or around 400lbs, then you shouldn't have a problem running 100-110A battery side current limits to each half of the motor. As always, I suggest keeping the phase/battery current ratio below 2:1 . I run 1.6:1 on my ebike that was the fastest hubmotored ebike in the world for 4 years until beaten by Rovii's 2 or 3 times as heavy 273x80 double wide electric GXR. Mine was on a Cannondale SuperV. :mrgreen: AFAIK, high phase/battery limit ratios create nothing more than unnecessary heat, especially when hills or hard riding is involved. Give me that flatter torque curve and maximum power and quick passing ability in the midrange speeds over making my bike too easy to flip. It's a no-brainer. Leave the big phase current claims to the guys with under-performing over-hyped common high slot count hubbies.

If you haven't already, play around with HubMonster on Miles motor spreadsheet, and for fun check out efficiency and power potential at high voltage. Maybe at long last I've found someone who can help build an economical 150V-200V controller and bring HubMonster to its true max potential in a mid-drive geared to put it in effectively a 10-12" diameter wheel still capable of highway speeds and more.

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Re: R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by John in CR » Jan 16, 2018 10:20 pm

PS- Don't lose track of which set of halls go with which set of phase wires. If you get them crossed you pick up a bit more rpm from a 3% timing advance, and while it still runs fine (I used mine for a few weeks that way), it creates slightly more motor noise, loses a chunk of lower speed torque, and creates significantly more heat. I was unable to tell which was which after a crash mangled my wiring harness, but I knew something just wasn't quite right with the motor until I swapped them over. It's not just a matter of swapping the connectors either, because crossed halls means you have to get the phase wires in the correct order too when you move the halls. On top of that, the motor spins the wrong way on a "good combo", so swapping 2 halls is required as well.

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Re: R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 17, 2018 2:36 am

John in CR wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 10:12 pm
82V is probably a bit high for something the weight of a big scooter unless you live in a flat area. Assuming it's a standard wind (18rpm/volt) then a 20s pack will get you well over 60mph, and unless you're heavy like me and can keep the all up load below or around 400lbs, then you shouldn't have a problem running 100-110A battery side current limits to each half of the motor. As always, I suggest keeping the phase/battery current ratio below 2:1 . I run 1.6:1 on my ebike that was the fastest hubmotored ebike in the world for 4 years until beaten by Rovii's 2 or 3 times as heavy 273x80 double wide electric GXR. Mine was on a Cannondale SuperV. :mrgreen: AFAIK, high phase/battery limit ratios create nothing more than unnecessary heat, especially when hills or hard riding is involved. Give me that flatter torque curve and maximum power and quick passing ability in the midrange speeds over making my bike too easy to flip. It's a no-brainer. Leave the big phase current claims to the guys with under-performing over-hyped common high slot count hubbies.

If you haven't already, play around with HubMonster on Miles motor spreadsheet, and for fun check out efficiency and power potential at high voltage. Maybe at long last I've found someone who can help build an economical 150V-200V controller and bring HubMonster to its true max potential in a mid-drive geared to put it in effectively a 10-12" diameter wheel still capable of highway speeds and more.
For the most part the roads are pretty level here. I intend to lose a lot of weight in the moped. Those 200 pounds of SLA's have got to go! I'll strip off stuff as needed to get it's weight down further. I might just strip it down to the frame and ride it "bare" with no cowlings or extra "stuff". I want this thing to be fast and as light as possible.

I weigh 240 pounds and can lose 40+ easily enough. I'm seriously considering losing weight just to make my EV faster.
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Re: R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 17, 2018 2:40 am

John in CR wrote:
Jan 16, 2018 10:20 pm
PS- Don't lose track of which set of halls go with which set of phase wires. If you get them crossed you pick up a bit more rpm from a 3% timing advance, and while it still runs fine (I used mine for a few weeks that way), it creates slightly more motor noise, loses a chunk of lower speed torque, and creates significantly more heat. I was unable to tell which was which after a crash mangled my wiring harness, but I knew something just wasn't quite right with the motor until I swapped them over. It's not just a matter of swapping the connectors either, because crossed halls means you have to get the phase wires in the correct order too when you move the halls. On top of that, the motor spins the wrong way on a "good combo", so swapping 2 halls is required as well.
Thanks for that! I was thinking about that problem while reading your hubmonster thread. When I read that there are 4 sets of halls, I quickly realized that figuring out which hall set went with which set of windings has got to be a nightmare.
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Re: R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 17, 2018 1:28 pm

Last night I adjusted my 66 volt charger down to 60 volts. My intention was to charge the SLA pack in the Martin. Since it's charging port uses a standard PC electrical connector, I made an adapter for XLR to that connector and plugged it in. The charger saw zero current draw. I don't know if there is something wrong or if the system needs to be partly charged before it will power up sufficiently to take a charge. I've run into devices that run on batteries before that needed partly charged batteries before they would allow the batteries to charge. Maybe this is a "safety feature". The SLA's are dead flat right now. I'm removing them so I guess I don't really care.

I have 3 sets of 10,000mah 16S LIPO packs that I'll drop in the moped to get it powered up for now. I bet they get me 20 miles of range. I've looked at people modding this machine and 66 volts is just under the controllers factory upper cut-off voltage. It will run on 16S just fine with the factory controller and DC-DC converter. I think for right now I need a few more LIPO packs.

Since I had 30 amps available in my charger, I thought I'd try turning on the moped and see what would happen. It powered up, all the lights work, the horn is dead and the motor runs. I had to hack together the destroyed throttle, but for the "does it live" test, it was good enough. There's a button next to the throttle. It does something...just don't know what it is. I'm guessing it puts the controller in economy or turbo mode, but I have no idea. I'm still hunting for the manual. The directional lights are super annoying. You get this piercing beeping noise when you turn them on. That will be the first thing to get removed!

Once it's up and running again with no mods other than the batteries, I'll take it to the DMV to get inspected so that I can get plates for it and then insurance. My drivers license is for cars and light trucks...guess I'll need to get the motor cycle manual and test for that. Oh well my drivers license expires next month anyway.

Later, I'll pull off the factory controller and upgrade to dual 18 fet Power Velocity controllers modded for 12kw.
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Re: R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by fechter » Jan 17, 2018 1:35 pm

If the lead acid batteries are sulfated, it's common to get zero charge current. If you leave the charger on for a long time (overnight), it might start taking some charge.
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Re: R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by amberwolf » Jan 17, 2018 2:02 pm

Most of the SLAs Ive run across that are "dead flat" at zero volts won't charge at all, ever again; they're destroyed. Many of them are swollen and cracked open at that point.

Occasionally I will get one that accepts a charge, but even after it's full capacity has flowed thru it from the charger, it still drops back to an extremely low voltage when the charger is removed, and drops to zero volts as soon as any load is placed on it.

Very occasionally one will accept a charge and rise to a useful voltage (but not it's normal range), and not drop to zero with a load, but it won't take a useful load, at least not more than a few seconds, before dropping too low to support the load.

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Re: R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 17, 2018 3:14 pm

amberwolf wrote:
Jan 17, 2018 2:02 pm
Most of the SLAs Ive run across that are "dead flat" at zero volts won't charge at all, ever again; they're destroyed. Many of them are swollen and cracked open at that point.

Occasionally I will get one that accepts a charge, but even after it's full capacity has flowed thru it from the charger, it still drops back to an extremely low voltage when the charger is removed, and drops to zero volts as soon as any load is placed on it.

Very occasionally one will accept a charge and rise to a useful voltage (but not it's normal range), and not drop to zero with a load, but it won't take a useful load, at least not more than a few seconds, before dropping too low to support the load.
Everything you said here I've seen too. I haven't opened up the battery bay yet, but the few cells I can see do not look bulged. I don't really care a whole lot. They are crappy SLA's after all...heavy, poor capacity, saggy and old battery technology. They are probably not useful for anything except recycling. They have sat for over 2 years in this state. If they take a charge, I'll be surprised.

I'll get one of those battery restorer chargers that "zap" the battery to try to restore them. But frankly beyond that, I don't really care very much despite the fact that there's a few hundred dollars worth of SLA's in there.
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Re: R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 18, 2018 6:52 pm

Anyone ever hear of the PulseTech chargers? They use high voltage spikes to break up the sulfation in a lead acid battery.
https://www.amazon.com/Xtreme-Charge-XC ... ech+xtreme

A friend of mine has one. He has an F350 Diesel truck that the batteries died on 4 years ago. Instead of spending $400+ replacing the batteries, he bought this device to restore them for less than $100. He uses the PulseTech randomly when the truck batteries get weak again. So far he has not needed to buy replacements 4 years later. It's not a permanent fix as he has to do use it once a year or so when they get weak. He's recovered loads of car batteries for people with it. $90 or more for a new battery or borrow a battery for 2 days while he uses his PulseTech on yours...hmmm...not much thinking needed here!

I have an old battery in my garage It came out of my 1999 F150 that I bought new. In 2011 it finally got too weak to be useful anymore. It's already a miracle battery for having lasted nearly 12 years! I kept it just becasue it lasted so long and figured at least it would make for a good core later for something. Since I now own 5 giant SLA's that are dead flat, it was time to buy a PulseTech to see if it will recover them. For just my ancient miracle truck battery, I wasn't going to bother spending the money for it, but now that I have these giant SLA's it seems compelling. I'll let you know how it goes!

None of the SLA's are bulged or cracked. That's an excellent sign in itself. So then, will the Pulsetech bring them back from the grave? They have sat dead flat for at least 2 years now. While I'm at it, I'll see if my miracle truck battery can live again. I have a Ford Expedition that I can drop it in to test it out. The SLA's are not the permanent solution for the moped. I have every intention of running it at 136 volts on a LION pack that I will build. Until I have gotten down the road a little ways and spent the zillion dollars on 500 21700 cells, they will have to do for now, if they can be recovered. I have 14 10,000mah 4S LIPO packs waiting for use in something. They are currently put together in 2 20S packs and 1 16S pack. I guess i could get a few more of those if the SLA's don't recover.

Oh yeah, and the battery in my Expo is getting weak. I think it's finally compelling to get the PulseTech.
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Re: R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 19, 2018 1:36 am

The SLA batteries are out. One of them actually has 1.24 volts on it. The rest are dead flat, but they all look nice and square with no bulging. I weighed one of the batteries...60 pounds...geez! That means there is 300 pounds of batteries in this thing! They are good for 50 amps...lame. That's hardly anything. A single lipo pack can deliver far more than that.

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The battery bay is quite large and the SLA's didn't really use the space effectively. It's 26" long, 7.5" wide and 9" deep. Under the seat area that's 15" deep. I could put an insanely large battery pack in this thing!

Image

Image
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Re: R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by amberwolf » Jan 19, 2018 2:26 am

That's a fair bit of space. It's not quite as big as my cargobox under the seat on SB Cruiser, but I could still probably put both of my EIG NMC 14s2p 40Ah packs in there. :) If they were paralleled, that'd be 58v full, 400A continous current capability (800A peak)--I expect that could give that scooter a kick of acceleration (if the controller can use it).

FWIW, those SLA look like some of the ones in the powerchair I have (though they're long dead). They make good ballast so it doesn't tip over, but that's about all they have going for them. ;)

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Re: R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by fechter » Jan 19, 2018 9:38 am

You might be able to fit some Nissan Leaf batteries in there. Even if you fill the entire battery compartment with lithium batteries, it will weigh about 1/3 of the lead batteries.
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Re: R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 19, 2018 1:06 pm

I have a multi chemistry car battery charger. I put it on gel cell and attached up one of the 50A batteries. After charging all night, it got up to 6.5 volts. I don't know if that means half the cells are internally shorted or what. I'm still not sure I really care. I have at least 300 scrounged laptop 18650's that are good. If I use them at 16S, that will get me around 40Ah. I have lots of 18650 battery holders. I probably have enough for all the used cells I have on hand or use my spot welder to make a pack. Add in 3 sets of 16S, 10,000mah LIPO packs and I have a decent amount of capacity at 1/4 the weight of the SLA's for no additional cost other than getting 3 16S BMS. That will allow me to run the Martin 100% stock.
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Re: R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 19, 2018 6:19 pm

fechter wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 9:38 am
You might be able to fit some Nissan Leaf batteries in there. Even if you fill the entire battery compartment with lithium batteries, it will weigh about 1/3 of the lead batteries.
I was estimating building a LIPO pack at 16S and 60Ah. That's slightly more voltage and capacity than the factory SLA's at 60 volts and 50Ah. The entire LIPO pack would weigh less than a single 12volt 50AH SLA. I'm seriously "getting the lead out" of this EV!

Other than the physical size of it, I can pick the whole think up now.

Leaf batts...didn't think of that! And yeah, that would be one giant pack! It would have to be installed in sections that are the size of an original SLA. The hole they go into to get down into the bay was designed around those dimensions.
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Re: R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 19, 2018 6:29 pm

amberwolf wrote:
Jan 19, 2018 2:26 am
That's a fair bit of space. It's not quite as big as my cargobox under the seat on SB Cruiser, but I could still probably put both of my EIG NMC 14s2p 40Ah packs in there. :) If they were paralleled, that'd be 58v full, 400A continous current capability (800A peak)--I expect that could give that scooter a kick of acceleration (if the controller can use it).

FWIW, those SLA look like some of the ones in the powerchair I have (though they're long dead). They make good ballast so it doesn't tip over, but that's about all they have going for them. ;)
I hear an echo in there!

The factory controller can't. It's pretty weak and hard limited in several ways. The EV has a 50 amp breaker on it as well. I'm already working on getting better controllers that will do 100 amps and 150 volts so I can run at 32S.

BTW...If I do nothing, but replace the broken throttle and then use what I already have for batteries, this will be my cheapest EV build EVER. The throttle will be the only new part to get for it. That essentially means $260 for the Martin and another $14 for the throttle. Of course that won't happen. I want to be burning down the road doing 90+.
ElectricGod...it's a joke...don't take things so seriously folks!

XB-502 Moped:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p1222730

Currie scooter:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 7#p1227407

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fechter
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Re: R Martin EVD Moped with HubMonster

Post by fechter » Jan 19, 2018 7:57 pm

6.5v on the lead battery isn't a good sign. Time to recycle.

A 50Ahr lithium battery will probably give about twice the range as a 50Ahr lead acid battery. Less weight combined with less Peukert effect.

Just for reference, here's the dimensions of a Nissan Leaf battery module. These are 2s each, rated for 64Ahr. For 16s, you would need 8 of them. Chevy Volt batteries are fairly easy to find too.
Nissan Leaf Battery Module.jpg
Nissan Leaf Battery Module.jpg (46.99 KiB) Viewed 513 times
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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