Those look like a water resistant and less-janky version of the power supplies everybody uses on their 3d printers (which I think are also supposed to be for driving LED's). If I understand Meanwell's naming scheme, the middle number is the power output, and the last number is the output voltage? So if I wanted to charge my 20S pack to the full 84 volts I would need to grab two -42A units to run in series. Looking at the adjustment range of the HLG-480H-42a that would let me set charge voltages anywhere from ~72-88V (so I could bump it to 21S if I really wanted to) with current settings anywhere between 6-11A (~500-950W). I do like that they are nice and small, water-resistant, around 13lbs for two of them, and that they only cost $130/ea on Digikey. If it charges in 3 hours off a normal 120V outlet I can't complain too much. In the future for fast charging I guess I would just grab two more of them to run in parallel whenever it's plugged into an outlet that won't melt if I try to pull 1800W from it for an hour or so.amberwolf wrote: ↑May 29, 2018 2:16 amMay I suggest using some Meanwell HLG type LED PSUs as chargers? They are waterproof fanless units that you can bolt to the bike without worry about vibration breaking them, and you can series and parallel them as needed to get the charging voltage and current you need. They work on 120v or 240v ac input.
I use an HLG-600H-54A built into the SB Cruiser trike for typical charging on the go or at home (600w+), and a parallel pair sit at home for the times I need rapid charging (1200w+). These plus another unit were used by their previous owner in 2 series 2 parallel for on-bike charging of a motorcycle, IIRC.
I just found the 8s-24s 300A smart BMS on aliexpress, it's pretty much exactly what I'm looking for. Yeah, that's better than whatever I was going to put together.flippy wrote: ↑May 29, 2018 2:30 amif you go with only a 20S solution i recommend just getting a off the self BMS with a decent current rating. check the bluetooth bms topic for tips. if a pack is balanced yo dont need much to keep it there. and most smartbms solutions can balance manually, just hit the button and wait. costs 130ish bucks with free shipping for a 300A model.
Sounds like a plan. If I really want to monitor the total pack charge status that badly I can just install a standalone coulomb meter.flippy wrote: ↑May 29, 2018 5:03 ami recommend bypassing the BMS and feed the controllers directly. use the BMS only for charging and balacing. you can put a contactor on the output that you can put between the rest of the bike (that includes the igintion) so the bms does not see the real power but can shut down the bike (no control voltage into the kelly and it dies instantly) but you dont have to worry about burning up the BMS because you are pulling 600A into the controllers. lot less heat as well.
+1 on the mean wells. get them. but put in a AC relay that cuts the connection to the battery when you disconnect the AC, otherwise it will very slowly trickle drain the battery. yo can leave them always connected and leave them floating. but i seriously recommend only charging to 4.05V that is massivly increase the lifespan of the battery.
That's about the size of the pack I eventually want to put in this thing, but I'm going to see what kind of range I can get out of the 20s 32Ah pack first. In theory it's like 35-40 miles if I don't do rippers with it the entire time. Probably a whole lot less when I do.flippy wrote: ↑May 29, 2018 5:56 ami plan on rebuilding my pack from 16S to 21S with the same controller and i will make a 61Ah 75V nominal battery (max charge 4.05, 85V total) running on that exact kelly. it should get the maximum from the controller without crapping itself.
for acceleration you need to make a balance between phase amps and battery amps. phase amps give lots of low end and battery amps give you the "Go" on the high end.
for fast charging you should just get a high power supply just for incidential charging. that is lighter but bigger. you can find those on the oriental shops.
That's pretty in-line with what I was able to come up with on my spreadsheet performance-wise.flippy wrote: ↑May 29, 2018 6:30 amthe mean wells run on 110 just fine, just reduce the current. it tells you on the tin how much you should lower the current by if you have them not in free air i recommend lowering the current to 2/3's current rating.
if you dont need to charge fast: dont. you will kill the battery for no reason.
ps: 0-30 can probably be done in less then 2~3 seconds depeding on how haw far "balls out" you intend to go...
Basically, yes to all that. Just make sure the cells you're using can handle that charging current safely without warming up during charge.phate wrote: ↑May 29, 2018 4:35 amIf I understand Meanwell's naming scheme, the middle number is the power output, and the last number is the output voltage? So if I wanted to charge my 20S pack to the full 84 volts I would need to grab two -42A units to run in series. Looking at the adjustment range of the HLG-480H-42a that would let me set charge voltages anywhere from ~72-88V (so I could bump it to 21S if I really wanted to) with current settings anywhere between 6-11A (~500-950W).
Since they are isolated, you can run them off separate outlets if you like, so that if the outlets run off separate breakers you can draw up to twice as much wall current as if only on one outlet/breaker.two more of them to run in parallel whenever it's plugged into an outlet that won't melt if I try to pull 1800W from it for an hour or so.
BMS are generally setup so that as soon as any cell reaches HVC, it will shut off input current to the pack. Before that point, any cells above the BMS's balancing voltage point would begin to be drained down by the BMS, and it would continue to do that whether current is flowing in or not, until they drop below that point.I'll have to do a bit more reading, but I would imagine that the BMS would be able to disconnect the charger(s) so I wouldn't need to babysit this thing when I plug it into the charging station out in the parking lot. Is that even 100% necessary? If the charger only reaches 84V and I leave the thing plugged in for a few hours, I would think it wouldn't be putting much current into the pack anymore (and the BMS can do its thing top-balancing the cells).
You can always use an external shunt wired just at the output of teh battery/BMS, to measure current from multiple controllers at the same time, rather than trying to merge data from each separate controller or measure just one controller.I'm not worried about overcurrent protection, but it would be cool to not lose out on being able to measure the current flow.
Currently I have 20S4P worth of salvaged SPIM08HP "bus lipo's", which have pretty nutty specs (25C continuous discharge, 10 or 15C charge). They're 8Ah each, so the pack will be 74v nominal and 32Ah. I haven't assembled the pack yet, since I'm still test cycling all of them to ~3.8v so I can work on figuring out the best way to connect them all.Bernel wrote: ↑May 30, 2018 12:03 pmThat is a good choice for your first ev build. At 20S4P what capacity of battery cell will you be using? When you source your controller get one that will allow you to expand the performance of your bike as and when you can afford to. My mistake was buying the wrong Kelly Controller and limiting myself to 90V. I have a Gen4 Size 4 in my YZF600R at the moment which will soon be replaced by a Size 6.
I've a long history of just not hearing back, not getting that perfect bike when I find it. Sometimes it never was for sale, just some goofball having fun listing this stuff
phate wrote: ↑May 28, 2018 6:36 am
- I can get some decent performance out of it without spending a ton of money (budget around $5000).
Basic goals before I dive into the details:
- Easy to register for road use. If the donor bike has clean paperwork, I basically just tell the DMV what I started with and check "electric" instead of "gasoline" as the fuel type.
- Small: Designed around a Ninja 250, but open to use whatever entry-level full-fairing sport-ish bike I can scoop for cheap on craigslist.
- Lightweight, low center of gravity
- 25 miles will get me to work and back, but I can charge at work if I completely screwed up my range calculations.
- Highway-capable, geared for 70-75mph top speed: I'm not planning to ride this thing on the highway, but I'd like to not die if I have to do it for an exit or two.
- Strong acceleration at low speeds. I'd love it if wheelies were possible, but it at least needs to be faster than most things in the 250cc range up to 40-50mph.
I'm planning to bulk charge with either an S1600 or S2500 from BMSbattery. At home I will be charging from a 120v outlet, but at work I have access to 220v for faster charging. J1772 capability falls firmly in the "I want it but we'll worry about that later" category.
The S1600 and S2500 are the model numbers for the chargers. The S1600 is a 1500W charger that costs $190, and the S2500 is a 2000W charger that costs $240. I've pretty much decided I'm gonna screw around with a few Meanwells instead.macribs wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2018 2:28 amLooks like this will be a very cool build. However do you really wanna spend 50% of what you sink into the complete bike on a charger? Build budget around 5.000$. Then 2.500 $ on a charger? If you can stretch your total budget to 7500$ you could do an epic build, the less you sink on a charger the more you can get radical performance parts that in return give you the happy e-grin.
110V charging will be 100% fine if I'm only riding to work (10hr shifts) and back or around town, but I would eventually like to be able to take longer rides, hang out at my destination for an hour or two, and pick up enough range to make it home, which is where the 220v charging would come in handy.macribs wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2018 2:28 amIf it was me I would just be happy with 110v charging and be done with it. You are building a full fairing bike, with less wind resistance then naked bikes. Less punching holes in the air, easier on the battery. When building the final battery I would strongly consider to build battery as large as you can possible fit within your budget and bikes real estate. Bigger pack less stress on each cell, and longer lifespan. Less heat and less Ohm. More efficient. And plenty of battery amps to really get amazing acceleration.
For whatever reason I can't find anywhere selling the Sur Ron setup to compare, but the twin 120100's are under $800 shipped and will do 25kW each on the Kelly's. I'm not married to the big KLS-S, but honestly 50kW on this thing scares me a bit already. As long as those controllers will work I can worry about adding more power later (after I've added a bunch of range).macribs wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2018 2:28 amI don't know the Alien power motors you plan on using, not the price. But I do know that it seems the Sur Ron motor is capable well beyond its ratings as people start pushing those motors ie with the ASI 8000 controller. From memory I think I saw claims of 25-30 kw peak for such a combo. Now imagine you run a dual setup of that....https://evnerds.com/electric-vehicles/e ... companies/ sur ron is now selling a ready made dual motor
A little less money on the charger and you can get that dual motor and two ASI 8000 controllers.Seems the dual sur ron motor will be about the same as the dual Alien motors. The dual ASI 8000 controllers will cost more then the Kelly's but in return the ASI's will get you peak current of 700 or 800 amps from each controller. Should really help you off the line when the light changes. Btw, size wise the ASI 8000 controllers are really close to the Kelly. Look at this forum for first hand reviews of the ASI controller.
And then you can then benefit from others running the same motor/controller combo in terms of getting the best possible settings dialed in. Kelly controllers have in the passed had a known ramp up issue, I guess it is firmware related to safety of something. When cracking the throttle you don't get max amps right away, which will kind of limit the acceleration a little from standstill. Don't know if there is a workaround. Maybe worth looking into before you sink money into parts.
I have not used kelly myself so I can't say how big impact that slower throttle ramp up plays. But from reading here on the forum it seems many people can't get the Kelly's dialed in to give best possible acceleration. When I read your first post it seems to me you fancy acceleration way more then highest possible top speed.For whatever reason I can't find anywhere selling the Sur Ron setup to compare, but the twin 120100's are under $800 shipped and will do 25kW each on the Kelly's. I'm not married to the big KLS-S, but honestly 50kW on this thing scares me a bit already. As long as those controllers will work I can worry about adding more power later (after I've added a bunch of range).
I have not ridden a Zero at all, although at least on paper this should be fairly close in performance. The only electric bikes I've been on had brushed alltrax setups on them, so I can't really compare.macribs wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2018 7:22 amI have not used kelly myself so I can't say how big impact that slower throttle ramp up plays. But from reading here on the forum it seems many people can't get the Kelly's dialed in to give best possible acceleration. When I read your first post it seems to me you fancy acceleration way more then highest possible top speed.
I don't think Kelly got problem pushing peak power, giving you fill amp out to motor. But if the controller limit the output say from standstill, it does not matter what peak output you get. Your acceleration will suffer. From stand still that is. Seems if you roll on the throttle while already cruising the pick up is faster and the Kelly don't hold back.
50 kw seems like a lot. But when you factor in the weight of the completed bike and rider that number is not outrages. Have you ridden any of the Zero motorcycles? They got a mode setting, can't remember if it was rain mode or eco mode but one setting puts serious strains on acceleration, from being boring in limited mode to being strong even from standstill in sport mode. My thinking about the Kelly is that you get that kind of "eco mode" feeling when you crack the throttle. Would be a shame really to loose potential grin producing take offs by the choice of controller.