SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.
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pipeking   1 W

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by pipeking » Oct 01 2019 12:39am

Haha so pretty much exactly what I said would happen, I would love to race you on my sur ron everyone thinks they are fast :lol: So when you say the rear bucks around, do you think its because the bike now just follows the fork? funny that

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by thoroughbred » Oct 08 2019 9:14am

The CRF forks are working great. Most of the theoretical problems with this swap are non-issues in my riding environment. I want a stable motorcycle feel rather than a twitchy mountainbike feel and, not surprisingly, the crf forks provide that. Steep descents are especially more friendly now.

The CRF forks have used about 8.5 inches of available travel, the DNM forks used about 7 inches of their available travel.

Running more air in the rear tire helps but the thin carcass is at its limit as trail speed increases. I'm trying out a Dunlop Geomax next to see how that feels back there.

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by pipeking » Oct 09 2019 3:43am

yep I reckon the geomax on the rear and scorpion on the front

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by skyungjae » Oct 11 2019 8:00am

A drop in 72V battery is now available that doesn't require you to sacrifice your OEM one. Great for those who are running aftermarket controllers.

https://litespeedbikes.mybigcommerce.co ... or-surron/
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Rix » Oct 11 2019 9:08am

skyungjae wrote:
Oct 11 2019 8:00am
A drop in 72V battery is now available that doesn't require you to sacrifice your OEM one. Great for those who are running aftermarket controllers.

https://litespeedbikes.mybigcommerce.co ... or-surron/
That will wake things up.

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Merlin » Oct 14 2019 7:08pm

the problem is that this dude gives a shit about rated cells.

advertise with 200A+ and doing a 10p battery with 30q cells...rated @15A peak....so simply a 150a P E A K battery.
he also using only a 50a BMS and bypasses discharge. not a big problem if using the bms as a cell monitor. but he tells also ppl that bms is "working" on charging.
if you bypass the bms on discharge, it cant disconnect your B- on charging also. so its only a cell monitor and not a single safety feature.
for ppl who knows what they do i didnt see any problems but since surron reached the market, the world, thousands of "not so experienced" guys are running now EVs without even the knowledge to change their brakepads and after some weeks, the usualy wish grows up-------MOAHHH POWAAAAAA.

Buying a 1500$ Battery with 600$ cells and a 50$ bms without any security feature as the original battery has simply a taste of rip off new EV guys.


edit: oh i see....200A continue and 300A Peak..... that doesnt make it better......vtc6=same price, capable to 300a peak...but still using 30q <- thats what i asked him....-> no anwer.

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Ohbse » Dec 16 2019 2:25am

Agreed the rating on that pack is extremely dubious. I've built a lot of 30q packs and would never specify a 10p pack as 200a continuous. With that topology and density I suspect it would get pretty toasty at half that.

20a single cell discharge in free air gets to 80c before it's done.

In other news, has anybody come across some verified test results from the surron motor? Phase to phase, no-load etc? I'm looking to create some vehicle simulations so I can predict performance. I have a dumb idea about setting some drag race records with a moped and would prefer to verify feasibility.

I'm also looking for any detailed models of the frame/suspension, purely in the interest of saving myself a bunch of time developing an auxiliary battery pack and a relocation for my taillight assembly.

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Jonathan1981   100 W

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Jonathan1981 » Mar 06 2020 5:00pm

Thoroughbred has figured it out. lol. I've been building custom light weight dirt bikes for over 10 years. So I've been down this road already.... I started out with the MTB suspension route and realized that ~125lbs bike weight is the upper limit of safety and ride ability. As soon as I put on full CR85 suspension setup front and rear, the bike become complete. Rides better, handles better, completely jumpable (real jumps) yet fairly lightweight. The Surry is just a tad lighter than my dirt bikes so it's at a weird tipping point, which is why we're all having this debate. The lighter riders (like myself) and the average asian, can get away with MTB suspension on it, but if you're a bigger guy, good luck with that.... The problem with just throwing on a Showa fork on the Surry is the geometry was not designed for it, so might affect various thing like handling and stress on the frame...
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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by John in CR » Mar 06 2020 5:40pm

Jonathan1981 wrote:
Mar 06 2020 5:00pm
Thoroughbred has figured it out. lol. I've been building custom light weight dirt bikes for over 10 years. So I've been down this road already
What's the best bang for the buck forks and rear shock with air pressure adjustability? Supplier? When building a bike from scratch how do you determine the ratio for rear shock placement? ie ratio of pivot to axle distance to pivot to swingarm shock mount distance.

The route I've gone so far (always using air shocks), because I'm toward the heavier end of the scale but don't go for jumping and big travel, is to give up travel so I can stay with a lighter smaller bike shock at lower pressure. One build I went a bit too long on the pivot to shock mount distance, so I only have about 2" of travel, but it's street only use on a low slung rocket scooter and it works fine at just 100psi as long as I dodge big holes in the road.

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Jonathan1981 » Mar 07 2020 12:39am

John in CR wrote:
Mar 06 2020 5:40pm
Jonathan1981 wrote:
Mar 06 2020 5:00pm
Thoroughbred has figured it out. lol. I've been building custom light weight dirt bikes for over 10 years. So I've been down this road already
What's the best bang for the buck forks and rear shock with air pressure adjustability? Supplier? When building a bike from scratch how do you determine the ratio for rear shock placement? ie ratio of pivot to axle distance to pivot to swingarm shock mount distance.

The route I've gone so far (always using air shocks), because I'm toward the heavier end of the scale but don't go for jumping and big travel, is to give up travel so I can stay with a lighter smaller bike shock at lower pressure. One build I went a bit too long on the pivot to shock mount distance, so I only have about 2" of travel, but it's street only use on a low slung rocket scooter and it works fine at just 100psi as long as I dodge big holes in the road.
I just piggy backed off of a zillion years of R&D from honda motorsports racing, pretty easy transplant. The rear suspension setup with the rising rate was the #1 game changer. The picture of that bike above can do 50 foot doubles all day long (I weigh ~ 150, bike is ~ 135), you can't do that on a Surron, the thing will explode.

So Air shocks aren't normally used in an MX application just because air tends to heat up more than a spring.

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by John in CR » Mar 07 2020 8:05pm

Jonathan1981 wrote:
Mar 07 2020 12:39am
John in CR wrote:
Mar 06 2020 5:40pm
Jonathan1981 wrote:
Mar 06 2020 5:00pm
Thoroughbred has figured it out. lol. I've been building custom light weight dirt bikes for over 10 years. So I've been down this road already
What's the best bang for the buck forks and rear shock with air pressure adjustability? Supplier? When building a bike from scratch how do you determine the ratio for rear shock placement? ie ratio of pivot to axle distance to pivot to swingarm shock mount distance.

The route I've gone so far (always using air shocks), because I'm toward the heavier end of the scale but don't go for jumping and big travel, is to give up travel so I can stay with a lighter smaller bike shock at lower pressure. One build I went a bit too long on the pivot to shock mount distance, so I only have about 2" of travel, but it's street only use on a low slung rocket scooter and it works fine at just 100psi as long as I dodge big holes in the road.
I just piggy backed off of a zillion years of R&D from honda motorsports racing, pretty easy transplant. The rear suspension setup with the rising rate was the #1 game changer. The picture of that bike above can do 50 foot doubles all day long (I weigh ~ 150, bike is ~ 135), you can't do that on a Surron, the thing will explode.

So Air shocks aren't normally used in an MX application just because air tends to heat up more than a spring.
Regarding air, you conveniently left out the ratio needed.

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Jonathan1981   100 W

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Jonathan1981 » Mar 08 2020 3:39pm

Not sure what you mean by "ratio".... I don't have experience with air shocks so I wouldn't know anyway.

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by skyungjae » May 08 2020 8:32am

From: https://www.facebook.com/groups/385187845425959

2003-2004 GSX-R Peg Brackets (for those who are having trouble finding or can't wait for replacement factory ones)

*Needs a washer and nut for the threads on the peg mount
*Lose 3 position adjustment for pegs
*LOSE KICKSTAND
GSXR.jpg
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GSXR Washer.jpg
GSXR Washer.jpg (268.79 KiB) Viewed 1808 times
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by thoroughbred » Sep 01 2020 6:33pm

skyungjae wrote:
Oct 11 2019 8:00am
A drop in 72V battery is now available that doesn't require you to sacrifice your OEM one. Great for those who are running aftermarket controllers.

https://litespeedbikes.mybigcommerce.co ... or-surron/
Now that more and more people have spare batteries, we need a way to bring them along on a ride. I tried on a backpack with the stock surron battery in it and it was miserable. I'm thinking better backpack arrangement or slinging it off the frame in front of your knee on one side. (counterbalanced on the other side by a gallon of whisky)?

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Rix » Sep 02 2020 1:47pm

skyungjae wrote:
May 08 2020 8:32am
From: https://www.facebook.com/groups/385187845425959

2003-2004 GSX-R Peg Brackets (for those who are having trouble finding or can't wait for replacement factory ones)

*Needs a washer and nut for the threads on the peg mount
*Lose 3 position adjustment for pegs
*LOSE KICKSTAND

GSXR.jpg
GSXR Washer.jpg
Interesting. Good to know.

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by artisanstone » Sep 02 2020 3:27pm

thoroughbred wrote:
Oct 08 2019 9:14am
The CRF forks are working great. Most of the theoretical problems with this swap are non-issues in my riding environment. I want a stable motorcycle feel rather than a twitchy mountainbike feel and, not surprisingly, the crf forks provide that. Steep descents are especially more friendly now.

The CRF forks have used about 8.5 inches of available travel, the DNM forks used about 7 inches of their available travel.

Running more air in the rear tire helps but the thin carcass is at its limit as trail speed increases. I'm trying out a Dunlop Geomax next to see how that feels back there.
I'm interested in this idea. Can you describe what was necessary as far as steering stem and bearings etc.?

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by thoroughbred » Sep 02 2020 7:38pm

artisanstone wrote:
Sep 02 2020 3:27pm
thoroughbred wrote:
Oct 08 2019 9:14am
The CRF forks are working great. Most of the theoretical problems with this swap are non-issues in my riding environment. I want a stable motorcycle feel rather than a twitchy mountainbike feel and, not surprisingly, the crf forks provide that. Steep descents are especially more friendly now.

The CRF forks have used about 8.5 inches of available travel, the DNM forks used about 7 inches of their available travel.

Running more air in the rear tire helps but the thin carcass is at its limit as trail speed increases. I'm trying out a Dunlop Geomax next to see how that feels back there.
I'm interested in this idea. Can you describe what was necessary as far as steering stem and bearings etc.?
It has been a year since I did this swap. Its awesome, no issues, only benefits for the way I ride it. I'm comparing it to regular dirt bikes so if you are a mountain bike person, your mileage may vary.

You need the whole front end off a CRF150r bigwheel bike. All you do is shave the steering stops off the crf triple clamp to give yourself full lock to lock swing. the fork tubes impact on the surron frame but the swing is so wide that it is you who controls how far the bars turn so it isn't a slamming situation.

The CRF stem is more narrow than surron so you just need a spacer/adapter to adapt crf stem to the surron bearings. I had to buy a long stick of metric tubing to make this spacer so let me know if you want some for yours. Slide tubing cut to proper length over crf stem then slide surron bearings over tubing and assemble. Use crf stem and castle nuts, surron bearings/races etc. CRF fender, handlebars and front brake are used so you lose surron fat bars and front brake switch. surron rear brake and throttle cable all still fine

Slide the Showa forks up in the triple clamps to suit your rake comfort zone. I had to fabricate a simple angle to attach my headlight bracket to the honda triples but mine is a Euro surron so yours might be different here.

Add a 1 inch rubber puck to your kickstand foot and i think you are done

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by artisanstone » Sep 03 2020 11:11am

Awesome, thanks. I'll keep my eyes out for a set of those forks

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by thoroughbred » Sep 04 2020 9:05am

artisanstone wrote:
Sep 03 2020 11:11am
Awesome, thanks. I'll keep my eyes out for a set of those forks
I measured my adapter tubing, its 30mm x 2mm wall thickness
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Weren't you one of the bigger front wheel/better forks pioneers?

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Jonathan1981   100 W

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Jonathan1981 » Sep 10 2020 7:27pm

Wow. So I'm a little late to the party with all the stuff I wanted to do on with Surron but eh...that's life. So I ended up finishing the full CAD model this spring. Here's a glimpse on my GC portfolio. The full file package is the COMPLETE bike, even connectors :) 500+ hours of work. Blood sweat and tears, unequivocally most difficult project I've ever worked on. I'd love to meet the frame designer because this thing is extremely intricate and complex. Very high level design work here...

I'm sharing the motor and more images on the my GC page.

https://grabcad.com/library/2018-surron-light-bee-1
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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by sn0wchyld » Sep 11 2020 7:23am

Jonathan1981 wrote:
Sep 10 2020 7:27pm
Wow. So I'm a little late to the party with all the stuff I wanted to do on with Surron but eh...that's life. So I ended up finishing the full CAD model this spring. Here's a glimpse on my GC portfolio. The full file package is the COMPLETE bike, even connectors :) 500+ hours of work. Blood sweat and tears, unequivocally most difficult project I've ever worked on. I'd love to meet the frame designer because this thing is extremely intricate and complex. Very high level design work here...

I'm sharing the motor and more images on the my GC page.

https://grabcad.com/library/2018-surron-light-bee-1

L-Side_profile_3.jpg
CNC_1.jpg
Batt-1_BG.jpg
:shock: :shock: :shock:


Goddam mate you're a nutter!!
Great work... will be very useful!

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Jonathan1981 » Sep 12 2020 12:28am

What I need right now is for some help figuring out how to go about either sourcing or creating a larger battery, if you guys can help me with this, that would be awesome. I understand there is research going on regarding this and companies such as Luna and ERT etc. have come out with more powerful replacement batteries etc. I want to work on a custom battery, a little larger, litte more powerful because I'm going to design a better frame but still use many of the parts of the orginal SURRY, like motor, wiring, key, displays, all that shit, just will be a bigger frame design with better suspension and obviously a new battery.

I've ridden this bike for 2 years now and it's a cool bike, but there's no way the suspension is up to the task. It's the same thing I experienced doing R&D for my custom dirtbikes over the past 10 years, as soon as you get above 125lbs, MTB suspension is no longer viable. Also, the frame is just really cramped. I want to keep the same overall "small and thin" bike feel tho. So no where near the size of the Storm Bee.

I have all the parts modeled so only thing I need now is an EXACT battery case dimension and possibly the dims for whatever controller will be used, I'm assuming the BAC4000. But again, I'm just not in the loop with all the R&D going on in that department so any leads in the right direction would be appreciated......

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by Merlin » Sep 12 2020 3:40am

If I get a 2nd "bigger surron clone" frame, I'll give you an upgraded surron battery :mrgreen:

Http://www.zemso.eu/Surron.html

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by thoroughbred » Sep 12 2020 6:28am

from the Zemso webpage:
Range:
EU Legal 45kph @ 27wh/km -> 120Km
offroad @ 40wh/km -> 80km

does that battery consumption seem accurate? I think I'm burning over 60Wh/km offroad

Very nice battery by the looks of it

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Re: SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Post by fechter » Sep 12 2020 11:52am

thoroughbred wrote:
Sep 12 2020 6:28am

does that battery consumption seem accurate? I think I'm burning over 60Wh/km offroad
If I ride mostly at top speed I see around 45Wh/km on the street. At lower speeds the consumption drops a lot.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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