E scoot newbie 1st post and already feels dumb

2stroketurbo

10 mW
Joined
Oct 27, 2018
Messages
30
Location
Portland Or.
Hi there,
I was given a nice 4200 mile 2007 EVT 168 a few years back with bad 48 v. bat Li Po cell and bad charger. I tried off and on for 1 year to find a cheap fix. Thought about strapping 4 lead acid car batteries under seat and on foot rest just to make it work. After finding this site, I knew I deserved better and ordered a new 48 volt 30 amp hr. battery, BMS, charger from Mr. PING ($ 1100. and two months later ), it arrives ! I am so happy. Then, Battery would not charge. took another week to figure out Mr. PING accidentally glued BMS wires in connector without pins . I fixed and now battery charges perfectly. all 16 BMS lights come on . Battery tests strong 57 volts. Bike will not start. Mr PING says BMS is restricting 120 amp controller to 70 amps. Took another week to bypass B- on BMS no discharge protection but should offer full 120 amp so bike can start. Bike still will not start. Headlight comes on and overheat beeper sounds. What should I check next? any ides? Thanks !
 
Ok, let's assume the Battery and BMS are fine. (I would have done the discharge protection hack differently...)

12v stuff works but the motor doesn't right?
Can you find out if your model has a brushless or brushed motor? (2 or 3 thick wires going to the motor?)
Also can you find some detail on the motor driver? Perhaps take a picture?

My guess would be, that the motor driver is confused about the voltage and refuses to start.

While you are checking the motor controller. Follow the entire powertrain cabling from battery to motor. Let us know every component. Is there perhaps a fuse or a contactor somewhere?
If you can, measure voltage on the motor driver input terminals.
I would expect there is a large solenoid (Contactor) that does katchunk when you turn the key.



PS: Disabling the BMS discharge protection is only for the daring as you can discharge your battery over the limit. I would have suggested you allow the BMS to cut off your power to the rest of the bike and only wired the power to the motor controller bypassing the BMS FET.
Then you can insert a contactor in the power wires to the motor controller which is actuated by the 12v you get when the key is turned. That way the BMS can still disconnect everything.

But nevermind, let's figure out your wiring. I'm not familiar with that model but scooters from that era usually don't have too many proprietary surprises.
 
Yes, thank you, the horn , turn signals, brake light, high / low beams all work fine. The EVT hub motor is brushed. There is no relay clunk when key is turned . I wonder if there is a seat pressure sensor switch or kick stand switch, or something so simple I am over looking. I will try to post pictures here, not sure how to do that yet.
 
Here is motor controller and bike pic for reference
03dc219fed2040391adfb3ce1ec8f534.jpg
4feb61c74cc0582d1347bc8a9b4451f3.jpg


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I checked for a seat pressure sensor and a kickstand down sensor, as I figured there's none. I big relay click when starting sounds like a likely scenario. I will trace components next
6312d892e70f152e37b85072fe8aa1d8.jpg


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Thanks for sharing. Ok, lets reverse engineer that a bit.

Are the only cables coming from the battery boxes really just the high power lines? I see a thinner black one, is that a signal cable?
Could be that there is a BMS in the original battery modules that tells the motor controller it's 'ok' to switch on. That would suck...
 
You could try unplugging the Anti-theft alarm next if it has one.

If all else fails you can always get a more modern Controller for relatively cheap.

And for the love of God please undo the BMS hack. The Controller has a Low-Volt cutoff but the 12V system doesn't.
There is no such thing as a 120A starting current requirement for electric motor Controllers, it just refers to the max output it can supply when under load.

Also, is the motor spinning freely or do you need to apply a lot of force to get it turning?
I don't know how long the Brushes usually last, but you might wanna check them.
https://visforvoltage.org/book/ev-collaborative-hand-books/11238
 
TilmanBaumann said:
Thanks for sharing. Ok, lets reverse engineer that a bit.

Are the only cables coming from the battery boxes really just the high power lines? I see a thinner black one, is that a signal cable?
Could be that there is a BMS in the original battery modules that tells the motor controller it's 'ok' to switch on. That would suck...



Ugh, you could be right. I opened up the case of the big battery, I don't recognize the factory BMS . really good idea, I will post more pictures
 
eee291 said:
You could try unplugging the Anti-theft alarm next if it has one.

If all else fails you can always get a more modern Controller for relatively cheap.

And for the love of God please undo the BMS hack. The Controller has a Low-Volt cutoff but the 12V system doesn't.
There is no such thing as a 120A starting current requirement for electric motor Controllers, it just refers to the max output it can supply when under load.

Also, is the motor spinning freely or do you need to apply a lot of force to get it turning?
I don't know how long the Brushes usually last, but you might wanna check them.
https://visforvoltage.org/book/ev-collaborative-hand-books/11238

The rear wheel hub motor spins free , but not too free. it has slight resistance . I thought about that brushes being worn too. I think they are ok.

yes I know, bad , bad me. I can undo the BMS hack. I did not solder on purpose, I used some really cool wire clamps . I needed to test that theory that maybe the bike needed to see 120 amp on start up. I will change it back for protection once I get the thing to start.

I wonder if it has an anti theft cut? I have all the keys. I don't think it s that sophisticated


Can you tell me more about controllers? thanks !
 
2stroketurbo said:
These are the original Li Po batteries that came out. Lasted 4200 miles.
1b238cbabc2aa974c2c6dae4c9486551.jpg


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see that battery case open ? I think that is the original BMS that goes with these batteries , although I'm not positively sure. there are no blinky lights to refence cells
 
Both of these Controllers will work. the smaller one will need an additional heatsink though, so I do recommend the larger one

http://kellycontroller.com/kds48200e200a24v-48v-mini-brushed-controller-p-286.html

http://kellycontroller.com/kdz4820024v-48v200aseriespm-p-951.html

But I would try to figure out the wiring first.

Check the wiring harness at the end of the controller and snap a pic.
Next, you will have to label all the plugs by checking the switches that are connected to it with a continuity meter.
Like brake switch, kickstand switch, Key switch etc.
The throttle should be one of the few plugs that have 3 wires. If it is a potentiometer then it will have just 2 wires.

All you need to run the new Controller is the key switch, 12V input from the 12V converter, Motor wires hooked up and throttle.
 
I even took the controller apart now I know how to modify that the bottle position for more power Everything looks really good in here
0637912169f0e85b9d2bd24a9742fd61.jpg


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I've come to the conclusion that the overload overheat device is stuck broken or engaged not allowing the Bikek to start
b525d8fc7cae95ad9f3d9a1ac270ef64.jpg


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Gday TST.
You say the overheat buzzer sounds. Do you mean that on start up, it goes through the self test ( beeping, batt gauge flashing ) then a long beep & all batt LEDs & overheat LED lit? My 168 does that when I switch on with the kill switch OFF. I once spent 3 hours tracing wiring on a Kawasaki to a kill switch OFF. Talk about feeling like a dumbass!

As to the current limit, I replaced the original SLA batts on my scooter (2004 brushed SLA model ) with 40Ah Fusion LiFe. When I accelerate, at 30 Km the batt gauge drops to the yellow & the alarm beeps. Same happens with SLA, but the Fusions have a 10 second burst current of only 80 amps & the BMS shuts down for about 40 seconds. Changing the batts to something that can deliver 120 amps constant would fix that but, since I can't afford that, I changed my riding to suit. I use the P/E switch like a gear, Take off easy in eco until I hit 30km then gun it. At max ( 45km ) I switch to power mode. Works for me.
I tried adjusting the ramp up pot ( small blue pot ) all the way down but the effect wasn't much, still had the alarm at 30km. I've got lots of spare EVT controllers to play with.
BTW, if you ever have to disconnect the throttle cable, VERY IMPORTANT to pull the cable all the way out then slip a brad or paper clip through the little hole in the shaft or else the shaft will slip all the way in to the controller & you might have to open it up!
Hope this helps you mate.

AussieRider.
 
Yes exactly AussieRider ! key turn on start up the scooter beeps and all battery gauge lights flash including the over heat light. after some time, say , 10 seconds or so , the beeper goes off silent but the battery lights continue to flash. And...that's it ! it does nothing. all the 12 volt stuff works. headlight, brake light, turn signals, horn .,,,,, It couldn't be a bad kill switch could it ? that simple?


I have switched the kill switch off and on many times.

Now you got me thinking
 
I don't have much experience with that model, but any overtemp device would generally be located inside the motor and be connected by wires to the controller. The most likely fail point is the connector. Look at the connections between motor and controller. Temp signal will be one of the skinny wires.
 
I have to ask Aussie Rider. I'm curious, What happens when EVT 168 is supposed to work right? key turned on.. Does the flashing battery lights come on at all? I assume lights on gauge are solid to show charge level of battery ? then twist and go?
 
TST, when you switch on, the sequence is
5 beeps, battery LEDs scroll up twice, OH LED flashes once then green batt LED only lights & all's good to go.
Sound like the kill switch. Look for a blue connector with a red & a blue wire behind the front cover.
Test with an ohm meter.

Fechter, the EVT brushed motor has just 2 wires going in. I think the OH LED refers to controller temp.

AussieRider
 
AussieRider said:
TST, when you switch on, the sequence is
5 beeps, battery LEDs scroll up twice, OH LED flashes once then green batt LED only lights & all's good to go.
Sound like the kill switch. Look for a blue connector with a red & a blue wire behind the front cover.
Test with an ohm meter.

Fechter, the EVT brushed motor has just 2 wires going in. I think the OH LED refers to controller temp.

AussieRider
Yes, thanks Aussie Rider . I pulled the front cover. The kill switch has red and blue wires and unfortunately work s perfect. It shows continuity when off and open when on. Which seems backwards to me however works perfectly. Dang.

Was so hoping that was it.

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I've read a bit about the brushed hub motors building up carbon and needed service and clean out and check brushes. I'm tempted to take the rear wheel off and check the hub . Possibly the overheat sensor is within the hub. I do have 4200 miles on the bike. I wonder if my hub motor is full of carbon .

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I've had a hub apart that was dragging. Not too hard but it's important to put a mark on the side plate & main body first so it goes back on in the same orientation or the brush timing will be wrong. The hard part is reinstalling the rear wheel without displacing the brake pads. Honestly though, if the wheel spins freely don't bother. There are about 8 brushes with an axial commutator. Some brushes are tapered, some aren't. Get them wrong & brushes jam in the holders & bad things happen. There DEFINITELY is no temp sensor in the motor. You tested the switch & it appears ok. Have you tried turning the scooter on with the blue connector unplugged?

AussieRider.
 
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