One Good marketing Plan is all we need

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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by r3volved » Feb 25, 2015 6:48 pm

If you're in it just for the margins then agreed, that business model is not ideal. If you're in it for innovation then there is much success left in this niche.

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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by cjh » Feb 25, 2015 6:56 pm

r3volved wrote:If you're in it just for the margins then agreed, that business model is not ideal. If you're in it for innovation then there is much success left in this niche.
Agreed but the operative word is niche and the idea was to blow the market wide open with this given what Storm/Sonders has done. I don't think this will do that, but it is a worthwhile project anyway.

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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by r3volved » Feb 25, 2015 7:28 pm

I'd prefer to blow the market up. And innovate.

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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by xenodius » Feb 25, 2015 8:15 pm

teslanv wrote:For me, it's not about the gas. If that were the case, I would just get a motorcycle.

I think there is something special about the performance of an electric vehicle. The silent acceleration it provides is just thrilling. It's just more fun to ride, and this is the message we need to relay to the unsuspecting public.
That's really what cinches the deal for me. Sure, it's less expensive in the long run and better for the environment-- I think that's important! But I'm one of those people who cringes instead of smiles when the Screaming Eagles pull up...

But tearing off the line with 300+ phase amps, even if it's just to 30 or 40mph, that puts a smile on my face EVERY TIME. And sometimes I'm so happy just enjoying the wind, view, silence and solitude when I'm bicycling or ebiking that I choke up. I love the outdoors a LOT. :D

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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by LSBW » Feb 25, 2015 11:17 pm

LOL. IMHO, this summer there will be tons of disappointed Storm ebike owners.
As everyone knows on ES, all of their claims are bogus.
You can't get anything decent out of that stupid 36v bottle battery.
Especially with 4" fat tires.
But, "There's a sucker born every minute"

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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by ebikedelight » Feb 26, 2015 4:31 am

LSBW wrote:LOL. IMHO, this summer there will be tons of disappointed Storm ebike owners.
As everyone knows on ES, all of their claims are bogus.
You can't get anything decent out of that stupid 36v bottle battery.
Especially with 4" fat tires.
But, "There's a sucker born every minute"

I have no doubt that many people who purchased the estorm, are expecting way more out of it then it is capable of, but
if the motor/controller and bike frame are solid enough , the owner can easily purchase a higher mAH battery .

Lets also keep in mind that there may be many buyers who plan on using it as a electric assist , which may work fine for their needs. Also, there are gonna be many buyers who live in very flat areas { like florida} where this bike may be fine for 5-10 mile errands to the post office, bank, etc. since they wont encounter any type of sloped road surfaces / sidewalks during their travels.

In my location, this estorm would be incapable of making it 8 miles to the local post office, due to my areas steep inclines.

We all know that many of the claims made by the promoters of this ebike, exxagerated their claims , but this is the case for numerous products sold to the consumer { tv infomercials do this all the time , and its even done with combustion vehicles and their MPG ratings , battery companies and thei mAH ratings , etc } .

In the end, it is always up to the buyer , to be the last researcher in the chain of consumerism and take the time to investigate and read about the items they plan on buying before spending their money and making conclusions that the item they are buying, will perform a certain way.

I am currently in a similar situation in regards to buying 4 packs of hi capacity 6s lipo packs from a china seller on ebay.
Ive never bought from this seller before, nor have I ever owned their brand of lipos , which are the lowest price Ive found for 6s packs with this Mah rating. Their price is unbeatable at $127.50 per pack , but I realize it is a risk that these packs may arrive , unbalanced, or have damaged cells or not put out the C ratings as advertised, etc. This is all part of the game, especially when the item a person is purchasing, is at the lowest price point available and from a different country where it would be tough to get any real customer support/ warranty.

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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by Ch00paKabrA » Feb 26, 2015 8:59 am

LSBW wrote:LOL. IMHO, this summer there will be tons of disappointed Storm ebike owners.
As everyone knows on ES, all of their claims are bogus.
You can't get anything decent out of that stupid 36v bottle battery.
Especially with 4" fat tires.
But, "There's a sucker born every minute"
Yeah, that is true for everyone here on this forum because we have at least some experience. However it is possible that the vast majority of those that bought into the Storm will experience their "Look Mom! I'm not pedaling" moment for the first time and it will be satisfactory - for a short while. Then the toy will either be tucked away in a basement or garage or wind up on craigslist. but who knows, some may really enjoy it and look for something better.

For the record though, 350w is fine for flat roads and lets face it, you are not going to encounter much in the way of hills at the beach. My first build was 36v 250w in a 29er tire and it did 19 mph. It is possible that the Storm will be fine for a number of them. If I had bought one though, you are right that battery is the first thing that would need to be upgraded.

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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by 100volts+ » Feb 26, 2015 9:35 am

LSBW wrote:
LOL. IMHO, this summer there will be tons of disappointed Storm ebike owners.
As everyone knows on ES, all of their claims are bogus.
You can't get anything decent out of that stupid 36v bottle battery.
Especially with 4" fat tires.
But, "There's a sucker born every minute"
+1 I know I was disappointed with my first mass consumer e-bike. I didn't tell my wife. However I did use it to learn how they function. I torn it apart and gave away the crap but kept the frame for putting the parts I wanted on it.
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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by lianjuin » Mar 02, 2015 2:25 pm

Sounds like a good idea. I would like to help. I could be instrumental in pulling this off. Please contact me if you guys are interested in moving forward: tora@juicedriders.com
ODK

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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by chas58 » Mar 03, 2015 2:01 pm

Yep, I think more than a few people here have thought the same (i.e. what could the minds at ES produce that Storm did not). Storm certainly hit the perfect wave of ebike interest, fat bike fad, and price point. The price point is Key to get people hooked, then you should have upgrade options.

weight speed cost range. Pick two: LOL
40lbs
cool looking design (Storm nailed this apparently)
20 mph
Cost? less than $999
20 mile range (no pedalling).
Inexpensive battery (to keep costs down) with upgrade options

Interestingly a quick search shows that Storm "kickstarted" someone to do this:
A decent commuter bike? https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/21 ... escription

For a starter bike, something like your "BBS02 hardtail and a small/light battery" is ideal. Sink the hook and people will want to upgrade to more speed and power once they have a taste figure out it is worth it. That speaks to a modular bike. Start with a 8.8Ah bottle battery and 350 watt hub, and then have upgrade options. Changing a wheel or a battery/controller should be easy.

The 50+ crowd is perfect. They have the disposable income and remember when they were stronger and loved bike riding. An ebike can bring that all back.

The commuting crowd would work best only in urban centers where distances are shorter and cars are more of a hassle. Just look at what is happening in Europe.

The storm build is simple and easy.
$190 fat bike
$90 Motor kit
$120 Battery.
ebike sales are surging in Europe, it is just a matter of time before the US catches up. It won't be long.
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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by farbike » Mar 06, 2015 9:33 pm

No one knows about ebikes, because it needs to be on tv. Untill a big company gets into the game and starts flooding the picture box with ads for the laymans to understand then it will be very difficult to build this market. I have been trying for years to do marketing for the bikes I sell, but without a large amount of marketing money it will be boiled down to the people who go on the internet and actively look for a new electric bike. People need to be shown how an ebike can improve their lives and make them feel great, but today no one really advertises them in the real world and a the market hasnt been created. But ebikes are growing so fast that once a big corporation gets involved I think everyone in the electric bike trade will profit.
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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by 100volts+ » Mar 07, 2015 6:50 am

No one knows about ebikes, because it needs to be on tv. Untill a big company gets into the game and starts flooding the picture box with ads for the laymans to understand then it will be very difficult to build this market
While I agree with that statement part of me wants the electric bike to be what it is now in America. Something that a lot of Americans have vaguely heard about but know little about. Because once it becomes main stream it will become over regulated and over taxed. Case in point, the new FCC regulations on the internet. 342 pages to fix something that wasn't broken, but now can tax the shit out of. (technically not tax but fees)
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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by windtrader » Mar 07, 2015 10:36 am

The thread has bounced from DIY high performance to 250 watt handlebars mounted up and fattie seat for the 50+ set. Quite a range of the definition of the target market. As stated before DIY is a niche market having many inherent challenges. Telsaav's project shows great promise to pave the path for those so inclined to make rather than buy a HP ebike. On the other end, the wait is basically over. Nearly every bike manufactures has bought into building a new frame based on one of the integrated BB motor units from Bosch and others. Let's agree to return here after a couple selling seasons to celebrate the success of the ebike or 5th quarter why it failed again.

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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by eleven6 » Mar 07, 2015 10:59 am

I'm going to get off topic for a minute because bullshit should be called out when you see it.
342 pages to fix something that wasn't broken, but now can tax the shit out of. (technically not tax but fees)
It's actually rumored to be 8 pages. Additional pages being supplemental material.. We'd be able to see the legislation if there weren't a couple people intentionally dragging ass due to procedural gimmicks.

I think it's extremely disingenuous to claim that this ruling was made to fix something that wasn't broken. Time Warner and Comcast operate as regional monopolies. They are also companies that operate with the worst customer satisfaction rating in customer service. Normally people would stop doing business with these companies and go to a competitor. That is, they would if there were laws in place that regulated the market to allow for competition. Instead, people have been and continue to be stuck with paying more fees each year for less service. It can be argued that a good internet connection is integral to democracy in this century forward as people increasingly depend upon it for both business and communication of all kinds, therefore, it is not a good argument to tell people to just go without it since there isn't another option. Hell, I know people who would pay significantly more for their internet connection to a competitor if a portion of that money was promised to go toward lobbying to screw Comcast and Time Warner, that's how slighted people are by this arrangement.

The current, largely unregulated, state of providing "high-speed" internet has allowed the existence of monopolistic companies such as Time Warner and Comcast who refuse to upgrade infrastructure (laying fiber) until finally someone like Google is exasperated enough to start laying Fiber in places like Kansas City. This is obviously a total failure of the "free market".In the past, the government has granted companies like Verizon massive tax breaks to the tune of billions to upgrade internet infrastructure statewide in Pennsylvania. Verizon kept the money and did nothing.

In addition to all of this, companies like Comcast and Time Warner are vertically integrated, meaning not only are they the gatekeepers of your connection to the net, but they own content providers (NBC, CNN, HBO) so they have an incentive to speed up the connection for content they own and slow down/throttle content that they do not. They can then negotiate, blackmail is the correct term, with companies like Netflix to force them more fees in addition to those they already collect from the customers, in order to not purposefully slow down or throttle their content. Which is exactly what they've done.
I don't think any neutral informed party can be satisfied with the current state of internet service in America. 100volts+, you are grossly misinformed if you think things were working without regulation.

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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by 100volts+ » Mar 08, 2015 6:31 am

100volts+, you are grossly misinformed if you think things were working without regulation.
and you are extremely naive or you are a government ass licker because it benefits you to be if you don't think the new regs are all about the Benjamins and being able to confiscate more from the middle class as well as controlling the content that runs through the net. A few hundred pages is just the beginning.
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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by eleven6 » Mar 08, 2015 11:52 am

and you are extremely naive or you are a government ass licker
That's a laugh. I'm about as anti-establishment as they come, and hardly naive. I just reluctantly recognize that governance, that is representative governance, is the only vehicle we have to ensure that our collective interests are protected. For instance, I live in Washington state, if the government were to sell off its national forests to private interests, do you believe the new owners would have a moral imperative to protect those lands in the same way? Perhaps, but more than likely not. What if they were purchased by a corporate collective with shareholders? Then the answer would be most definitely not and they would act like most profit-driven corporations, that is, strip the land of all valuable resources with varying levels of sustainability depending upon the business plan. After this privatization, citizens and future generations who would have otherwise enjoyed these formerly protected lands would likely be left with a wasteland, and for what, to temporarily fix a few budget holes by selling out our protected resources?

Your ranting demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of the function of government by taking the stance that any type of government is bad and will always be bad. Some would call this extremism. I will not ignore just how broken our federal and often local representative government, a Princeton study now widely quoted found that, in contrast to special interest groups formed by industry and wealthy elite, average citizens for the past 30 years have had statistically zero influence on government policy. Obviously the state of our representative government is totally broken. But ultimately the government is a reflection of its people, and misinformed people often vote against there own interests by not doing their due diligence educating themselves or allowing their opinions to be manipulated by exposing themselves to propaganda and propagandists.

That said 100volts+, if your platform is to get rid of government altogether, what you are left with is privatization of everything. This is very poor platform if your goal is to protect the middle class as you state as the only moral imperative corporations have is to generate profits. If you cannot see why this is a bad thing despite my anecdote about the protected forests, here's a modern example of what happens with privatized fire departments. Or you could point to privatized prison systems; we currently have the largest prison population in the world and many states are privatizing their prison systems. Guess how private prisons generate profit? By locking up and keeping more citizens in prison. They have an incentive to find more ways to lock more people up, often people that shouldn't even be in prison (victimless crime "offenders"). That is a total failure of privatization which ultimately costs the taxpayers more money, something I think anyone can recognize is a bad thing for society.

Have you heard you heard the saying, doing the right thing is often doing the hardest thing? Well the easy thing to do is to throw your hands up, rant about how the government is broken, and vote in a way that allows the continuation of the sell-out and underfund policies with regard to those policies that actually benefit average citizens' (middle-class) collective interests. Then when things get worse, you can claim how you were right all along, while your votes helped frock all future generations to come. The right thing, or the hard thing in this case, is to get educated and use the god-damn greatest tool we have for communication, the internet, which as I've shown has been threatened by private, monopolistic interests in the United States, and discover just how uninformed and dangerous the opinions you appear to hold actually are.

But I doubt your the type to allow yourself to appear wrong about something (on the internet no less!), your ego looks to be too large as the first thing you resort to when challenged with facts is to name-call.

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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by 100volts+ » Mar 08, 2015 12:26 pm

This thread is about an e-bike marketing plan commie so stick with the topic.
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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by teslanv » Mar 08, 2015 12:30 pm

Please take it outside gentlemen.
A new thread if you like...
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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by eleven6 » Mar 08, 2015 1:07 pm

To get back on topic,

I was really impressed by the juiced rider v3 platform from a feature oriented point of view. I think platforms similar to this would have a lot of potential to reach a large market here in the US. The problem with the Juiced bike is that it retails over $3k, and as has already been discussed, price-point is a huge barrier to adoption. The other problem is that it doesn't hit 30mph out of the box.

If you could take a similar cargo bike platform to the Juiced Rider ODK V3, reach a price-point of $999 or less, and hit 30mph with little to no modification required you'd have a knock-out success. I'm really looking forward to the completion of the Tesla Gigafactory, and how it will affect the price of batteries in the future.

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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by ebikedelight » Mar 08, 2015 3:53 pm

When it comes to successful marketing of " niche" type products , companies usually are good at predicting possible profit potential for a given product .

As much as we enjoy the hobby of ebiking, im not sure it is a venue that could become hugely mainstream and become a common hobby amongst american society thru advertising on tv/ radio .

I actually think, the biggest market in america, for ebikes, would be with children/ teenagers and using advertising to get those 2 groups to persuade their parents to purchase them that new ebike as a birthday/ xmas gift .

I consider ebikes to be a very specialized product that will target a very small portion of adult american society , because our population is so spoiled by using fossil fuel vehicles and they certainly dont like the idea of driving a ebike in bad weather, cold weather or relying on it for regular transport. Lets also keep in mind the massive obesity and poor health of americans due to their bad eating habits and lack of exercise....for most of these people, the idea of regular transportation thru a bicycle platform, is not very exciting....especially when they are told they have to spend $1000 + on such a item and then have to deal with severe limitations on speed/ power/confort and overall commuting distance. Most adult americans dont want to give up their ability to travel 20 miles, in comfort, in their cars , and have the ease to deal with 100 degree heat or 30 degree cold in the outside environment just by flicking a switch to turn on air conditioning or heat ....not to mention the comparisons of comfort when travelling a 30 mile commute on a bicycle seat compared to car seat.

Then you have to factor in the learning curve of ebiking..which most people wont have the desire to research and gain knowledge on when dealing with different battery types, safety , controllers, etc.


In the end, the saying stands true " humans are creatures of habit " .

Ebikes, airguns, rc planes ,etc....can be very fun hobbies, but will generally remain very niche type hobbies .

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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by ebikedelight » Mar 08, 2015 4:16 pm

If I were to dive into trying to market a ebike, for fun and profit , these are the things I would focus on bringing to market :

Go with a 1000 watt brushless D.D. rear hub motor , because its inexpensive , simple and reliable . If neccessary , put a limiter on the throttle to keep the ebike within legal mph laws ....which would mean you are selling a legal ebike, but it would allow the consumer to replace the throttle if they wanted higher speed , putting all the liability upon their end of the equation.

Use a 26" bicycle platform that offer 3 different sized framed bikes - small - medium - large , since those 3 sizes will be your main target consumer { most people arent taller then 6' 3 " , so extra large bike frames are generally weaker sellers} .

Do not try and offer many different styles of bikes with this setup...go with 1 or 2 styles...one of which could be a fat bike type setup , allowing 3- 4 " tires to be used which means the consumer can now use the ebike not only for road surfaces, but gravel, snow, sand, dirt trails, etc....this gives the consumer many more options then just slapping a 1000 watt hub motor on a road bike with a 1" wide tire.

Use a lifepo4 battery system because of its safety and cycle life, and use a standard 48 volt - 15- 20 a/H setup with BMS and a charger included . Its pure baloney to be making these ebikes with 24- 36 volt batterys and 8- 12 a/h capacities. In its stock form, the ebike needs to offer the consumer decent capacity so they can reliably travel more then 10 miles.

Mandatory mechanical disc brakes { hydraulic brakes are overkill and more expensive }

Route all the wiring neatly on the outside of the bike, using shrink wrap. If you route all the wiring on the inside tubing of the bike, it makes it that much harder for the consumer to diagnose and repair possible future problems, bad connections, etc.

Keep the gearing of the bike simple...no need to make it a 27 speed bike...stick with a 7 speed freewheel . Most people using a D.D. hub motor, aint gonna be using 27 different gears..so its a waste.


Offer a 3 month warranty and customer support.

If any company can do this for a price point of $999 or less, then I think they would have a hit on their hands.

Also, give the consumer a option to upgrade to a LED headlight , tail light, horn, mirrors , suspension seatpost and maybe even rear blinkers , for a slightly higher price
{ like maybe another $175 for all those options } . I think many consumers would be interested in this option , not only for safety reasons , but because it would make the ebike , look and feel more like a scooter/ moped/ motorcycle. In other words, sometimes " image" sells and people are willing to pay more for a certain image.

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We need 3 things

Post by chas58 » Mar 10, 2015 12:39 pm

Are we seeing true innovation with Storm? Possibly...

If all we needed was a marketing plan, we could just give Agency 2.0 its $9,000 fee and get on with it; but we would need more than a good marketing plan. Sondors is innovative in a practical sense. Specifically successful innovation requires at a minimum 3 things:
- A great idea (storm has this: A) $500, B) ebike, & C) Fat bike - it is a great combination and the timing is good
- Engineering talent to execute it: This is a weak point with Storm; apparently that tallent provided remotely from China
- Business and marketing savvy. Agency 2.0 provides a lot of this, but whether the business plan is implementable or sustainable remains to be seen.

The reason why there is no ES bike, is because we don't' have a committed team strong in all 3 areas. There are plenty of cool ideas running around here.
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Re: We need 3 things

Post by ebikedelight » Mar 10, 2015 5:43 pm

chas58 wrote:Are we seeing true innovation with Storm? Possibly...

If all we needed was a marketing plan, we could just give Agency 2.0 its $9,000 fee and get on with it; but we would need more than a good marketing plan. Sondors is innovative in a practical sense. Specifically successful innovation requires at a minimum 3 things:
- A great idea (storm has this: A) $500, B) ebike, & C) Fat bike - it is a great combination and the timing is good
- Engineering talent to execute it: This is a weak point with Storm; apparently that tallent provided remotely from China
- Business and marketing savvy. Agency 2.0 provides a lot of this, but whether the business plan is implementable or sustainable remains to be seen.

The reason why there is no ES bike, is because we don't' have a committed team strong in all 3 areas. There are plenty of cool ideas running around here.

A few years ago, I came up with a idea similar to what storm has been doing....but I wasnt interested in devoting the time into the project.....or dealing with all the hassles once the product has been sold to uninformed consumers.

You gotta remember, that the majority of these estorm buyers, are newbies and are gonna have a product with medicore { at best} components....then factor in that they will misuse- abuse those components , and then they will expect those components to have a warranty.

Batteries are a perfect example....we all know that even when purchasing good grade batteries, there are quality control issues.....now, use that example with a cheaper mass produced battery , like whats in the estorm..and then sell it to mostly people who dont even know the proper charging/ discharing rates / cutoffs....its a recipe for alot of headaches to anyone who wishes to dive into selling such a product to the uninformed masses.

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Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by \/ampa » Mar 10, 2015 6:27 pm

ebikedelight wrote:
chas58 wrote: Batteries are a perfect example....we all know that even when purchasing good grade batteries, there are quality control issues.....now, use that example with a cheaper mass produced battery , like whats in the estorm..and then sell it to mostly people who dont even know the proper charging/ discharing rates / cutoffs....its a recipe for alot of headaches to anyone who wishes to dive into selling such a product to the uninformed masses.
If you are smart enough to stick the petrol nozzle in your car to refuel.
Than a ebike with smartBMS battery will be nothin ya brain can't manage.
A modern smart BMS protects all these issues you named. Additionaly i would also make temperature control with integrated heat wires and isolated case with styrofoam for the cold dayz. Also make the buyer sensible to the information to not let the battery in direct sunshine for long. Lightwight quickrelease battery let thieves no chance.
QC is with the new 18650 very good. Just ask schwibsi how many have not failed :D ! Its mostly a cheap BMS with poor QC which causes problems.

ebikedelight
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1 kW
Posts: 364
Joined: Dec 26, 2014 1:58 am

Re: One Good marketing Plan is all we need

Post by ebikedelight » Mar 10, 2015 6:59 pm

\/ampa wrote:
ebikedelight wrote:
chas58 wrote: Batteries are a perfect example....we all know that even when purchasing good grade batteries, there are quality control issues.....now, use that example with a cheaper mass produced battery , like whats in the estorm..and then sell it to mostly people who dont even know the proper charging/ discharing rates / cutoffs....its a recipe for alot of headaches to anyone who wishes to dive into selling such a product to the uninformed masses.
If you are smart enough to stick the petrol nozzle in your car to refuel.
Than a ebike with smartBMS battery will be nothin ya brain can't manage.
A modern smart BMS protects all these issues you named. Additionaly i would also make temperature control with integrated heat wires and isolated case with styrofoam for the cold dayz. Also make the buyer sensible to the information to not let the battery in direct sunshine for long. Lightwight quickrelease battery let thieves no chance.
QC is with the new 18650 very good. Just ask schwibsi how many have not failed :D ! Its mostly a cheap BMS with poor QC which causes problems.

I never under estimate the ability for people to " screw up" even the most simple things, they are uninformed about.

You mention how the batteries come with a BMS to cutoff and protect battery...and I know people would think...

gee, if I take off that BMS..I can drive even farther, ....cause it wont cutoff my power.

Id be willing to bet, the majority of people who purchased the ESTORM, dont know what LVC or " C" ratings even mean.

Most people dont want to take the time to learn such important knowledge ...they just want to jump on a ebike and go.

Furthermore, anyone that just completely relys on things such as BMS...without knowing how to check individual cell voltages or balance them, may be faced with problems when the BMS malfunctions.

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