?? 100+Amp circuit breakers

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MileHighGuy   1 mW

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?? 100+Amp circuit breakers

Post by MileHighGuy » Feb 19 2018 11:35pm

Sorry if this is redundant. I can't seem to find any of these on the web. Can anyone point me in the right direction please? Thnx

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amberwolf   100 GW

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Re: ?? 100+Amp circuit breakers

Post by amberwolf » Feb 19 2018 11:54pm

There are many kinds of breakers, and not all are interchangeable.

What do you want this one to do, and what specifically is it for?

AC? DC? Voltage? Trip current? Sustained no-trip current?

Size limitation? Budget?

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Re: ?? 100+Amp circuit breakers

Post by Buk___ » Feb 20 2018 1:02am

MileHighGuy wrote:
Feb 19 2018 11:35pm
Sorry if this is redundant. I can't seem to find any of these on the web. Can anyone point me in the right direction please? Thnx
These guys seem to cover most eventualities.

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Re: ?? 100+Amp circuit breakers

Post by Alan B » Feb 20 2018 1:20am

Solar Power breakers are often AC/DC rated and some are over 100 amps, if that's what your looking for.

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Re: ?? 100+Amp circuit breakers

Post by amberwolf » Feb 20 2018 1:33am

Just so you know, in case you're needing them for a DC application:

Regardless of what that page tries to tell you, the big breakers on that page are designed for AC, not DC, so they are not guaranteed to actually break a DC connection under load. They might, or they might not. You can look up the p/n on each breaker to see the actual manufacturer info for their ratings. I didn't look up every one of them, but the ones I did all came up as AC.

That said, I've been using that general type on CrazyBIke2 for years and it's worked when I needed it to so far (which has been twice that I can recall, so not a very big test sample). SB Cruiser has one too, but haven't had it tested in a real situation yet.

Powerchairs also tend to use those, but only 24VDC so it's a lot easier for them to break teh connection than at the higher voltages (50-60+) many ebikes tend to use. (I have the ones I do because they came recycled from dead powerchairs)


If you need them for AC disconnections, well, they're designed for that, so they'd be fine. :)
Last edited by amberwolf on Feb 20 2018 1:50pm, edited 1 time in total.

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teklektik   10 GW

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ebike Breakers and Cutoff / Main Power Switch

Post by teklektik » Feb 20 2018 8:02am

Buk___ wrote:
Feb 20 2018 1:02am
MileHighGuy wrote:
Feb 19 2018 11:35pm
Sorry if this is redundant. I can't seem to find any of these on the web. Can anyone point me in the right direction please? Thnx
These guys seem to cover most eventualities.
Do not use the DZ47-63 breakers listed there. Two major problems:
  1. They are exclusively meant for residential AC use and have no derated specs for DC at all
  2. They are recommended only "for infrequent use" by the manufacturer.
    EDIT - This is a a misstatement as pointed out by Buk___ below. See following posts.
To discourage you, please see: http://donar.messe.de/exhibitor/hannove ... 350150.pdf

A big advantage of breakers on a bike is that they make compact main power cutoff switches. However, most breakers are not designed to be used as switches and have a cycle life measured in hundreds of cycles. Ideally you want breakers that are designed for dual duty so the cycle life is well into the thousands. That said, these specs are based on connect/disconnect operations under load which does not happen on an ebike, so the situation is not as dire as it first appears. None the less, there's no good reason to start out by going against the specs when more suitable alternatives are available.

The issue of DC vs AC breakers is well documented and although there is always anecdotal evidence to the contrary, using AC breakers for DC applications is flying into the sun for no good reason.

Marine or solar breakers are meant for DC and are also typically designed for use as switches (although that last part varies). Here's a couple of choices for modest and more powerful bikes respectively:
Similar units from competing manufacturers are available, of course...

For protection purposes the failure current draw will be very high so there's no point in crowding the operating current unnecessarily. Something 50% over your max is perfectly fine and leaves room for a bigger controller in the future. Your BMS should protect your battery and breakers are not fast enough to protect your electronics - the breaker is to prevent your wiring harness from melting - and to do duty as a switch.
Last edited by teklektik on Feb 21 2018 7:13pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ebike Breakers and Cutoff / Main Power Switch

Post by Buk___ » Feb 20 2018 10:04pm

teklektik wrote:
Feb 20 2018 8:02am
Do not use these breakers. Two major problems:
  1. They are exclusively meant for residential AC use and have no derated specs for DC at all
  2. They are recommended only "for infrequent use" by the manufacturer
To discourage you, please see: http://donar.messe.de/exhibitor/hannove ... 350150.pdf

...
Hm. The very document you link, on page 12, "HL7-63 HIGH BREAKER CAPACITY MINI CIRCUIT BREAKER" gives its AC rating as
250/400VAC and 10KA IEC898(0.5~63A) or 15KA IEC947-2(0.5~63A)
depending which specs you work to.

But ... it then goes on to give its DC ratings:
Max.48V(XYDB7...,10KA)single pole; Max.250V(XYDB7-DC,6KA)single pole
As for "for infrequent use", a little down the same page gives:
Mechanical Life: Not less of 20000 times switching operation
(circa. on/off once a day for 27 years) and
Electrical Life: Not less of 8000 times switching operation
a trip a day for 22 years.

So, assuming that the seller I came across is totally incompetent because "they look like domestic AC breakers, so are no good for DC" is premature.

And given at the point I posted, the OP hadn't stated requirement as AC or DC; and the US site I found suggests their use for electric scooters, I don't feel chagrined to have offered the OP the link so that he can make his own mind up.

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: ?? 100+Amp circuit breakers

Post by teklektik » Feb 21 2018 11:20am

Buk___ wrote:
Feb 20 2018 10:04pm
...
But ... it then goes on to give its DC ratings:
Max.48V(XYDB7...,10KA)single pole; Max.250V(XYDB7-DC,6KA)single pole
...
As for "for infrequent use", a little down the same page gives: "Mechanical Life: Not less of 20000 times switching operation" (circa. on/off once a day for 27 years) and "Electrical Life: Not less of 8000 times switching operation" a trip a day for 22 years.
The document to which I linked covers a number of products. The parts being sold by your linked vendor are in the DZ47-63 family. Unfortunately, the spec you reference is for a different product in the HL7-63 family. None of the specifications for the DZ47-63 list a DC rating that I can see. Simple mistake - these specs can be daunting to plow through.
  • That said, the alternate HL7-63 that you located IS a viable candidate and has both a workable DC rating and was designed to be operated as a switch. The matter of finding useful DC beaker has been discussed on ES for years and finding viable solutions for ebike use has been challenging. If it can be sourced, it would be a good choice for lower voltage ebikes.
The comment about "infrequent use" came from the first paragraph of the document:
Honghua Electric wrote:It mainly functions as overload and short-circuit protection in the line of single-pole of 240V and two-, three-, four-pole of 415V with rated frequency of 50HZ or 60HZ, also for unfrequent making and breaking electrical apparatus and lighting circuit under normal conditional.
This restriction appears repeatedly for many of the products covered in the document. However, the DZ47-63 spec does call out a cycle life of 4000/20000 (electrical/mechanical cycles) which I missed on the first review. This is a more than adequate cycle life for this application taking this particular consideration off the table. In spite of the apparent contradiction, the spec is certainly more material than the vague statements of the introduction. My Bad.


It's unfortunate that you didn't stop posting there so this remained a technical discussion with a useful correction and discovery of a new candidate part. Instead you seem to have gotten your knickers in a twist and continued on...

Buk___ wrote:
Feb 20 2018 10:04pm
So, assuming that the seller I came across is totally incompetent because "they look like domestic AC breakers, so are no good for DC" is premature.
Your quote "they look like domestic AC breakers, so are no good for DC" is a entirely fabricated.
  • I simply did not say that. This imagined quote suggests that the evaluation was based on appearance and the conclusion of fitness for DC use derived from that "look". The document claims they are AC breakers useful for lighting and motor use. Although referring to them as 'residential' was perhaps incorrect, the DC evaluation was based entirely on the specification. Your attempt to characterize the conclusion otherwise is silly.
I did not mention the vendor directly or indirectly in any manner - the characterization of "totally incompetent" is entirely yours.
  • I spoke only of required criteria, the fitness of the part, and provided the documentation for review to support the observations. You may agree or disagree - so present another perspective. How this went from a discussion of technical requirements and features to personal judgements is beyond me.

Lighten up - we're just trying to navigate through all this stuff so that in the end the OP get useful and correct information. Perhaps in this thread you made a suboptimal recommendation. Perhaps in other threads I did the same or worse. Big Whoop. As long as it all gets sorted in the end.
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Re: ?? 100+Amp circuit breakers

Post by Buk___ » Feb 21 2018 1:28pm

teklektik wrote:
Feb 21 2018 11:20am
Your quote "they look like domestic AC breakers, so are no good for DC" is a entirely fabricated.
  • I simply did not say that. This imagined quote suggests that the evaluation was based on appearance and the conclusion of fitness for DC use derived from that "look". The document claims they are AC breakers useful for lighting and motor use. Although referring to them as 'residential' was perhaps incorrect, the DC evaluation was based entirely on the specification. Your attempt to characterize the conclusion otherwise is silly.
It is called paraphrasing. In this case, used to draw the obvious conclusion from a large body of material evidence. And I did not characterise "the conclusion", but rather drew my own; which I'll characterise as I see fit.

Had you read the document you cited; not called them residential; not mistakenly suggested that every product on the page I linked was not up to the job; had you cited the previous E-S discussion you've only mentioned in passing; we wouldn't be continuing this side discussion.
teklektik wrote:
Feb 21 2018 11:20am
I did not mention the vendor directly or indirectly in any manner - the characterization of "totally incompetent" is entirely yours.
  • I spoke only of required criteria, the fitness of the part, and provided the documentation for review to support the observations. You may agree or disagree - so present another perspective. How this went from a discussion of technical requirements and features to personal judgements is beyond me.
I wrote 7 words as an introduction to a link to a US site; selling a product rated in the range the OP asked about; and sold for use on electric scooters. The sum total of judgement on my part was choosing to post what on face value appeared to be a useful link. Full stop.

The rest is my reaction to you ...
teklektik wrote:
Feb 21 2018 11:20am
Lighten up ...Perhaps in this thread you made a suboptimal recommendation....
Says the man who waded in kicking with size 14 boots.

I didn't make a recommendation; I profferred a possibility.

Beyond pointing out your errors, the (mis)judgments and heaviness lie entirely with your 400 word response to my seven.

Have you heard the expression: hoisted by your own petard?

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: ?? 100+Amp circuit breakers

Post by teklektik » Feb 21 2018 7:37pm

Buk___ wrote:
Feb 21 2018 1:28pm
It is called paraphrasing. In this case, used to draw the obvious conclusion from a large body of material evidence. And I did not characterise "the conclusion", but rather drew my own; which I'll characterise as I see fit.
When you put something in quotes it's called "quoting" not paraphrasing... :lol:

The bottom line here is that this is not about you and never was. You have gotten all excited and defensive about nothing - whining that you had no need to be embarrassed. Get a grip. This is about circuit breakers.

Normally I'd leave you throwing your troll tantrum, but you *finally* got out one sentence that is interesting:
Buk___ wrote:
Feb 21 2018 1:28pm
Had you read the document you cited; not called them residential; not mistakenly suggested that every product on the page I linked was not up to the job; had you cited the previous E-S discussion you've only mentioned in passing; we wouldn't be continuing this side discussion.
Ignoring the meaningless crap - here's the interesting part:

The point about other breakers surprised me since I didn't think there was anything else on that page. Sure enough, there are a flock of other pretty useful breakers there. I initially viewed that page on my phone and for whatever reason thought I had viewed the entire page. This is why there is no mention or datasheets for the other breakers in the original post. I have fixed the post to address only the DZ47-63 breakers as was the original intent.

Although missing the other breakers was unfortunate, I cannot help but wonder why you did not simply get to the specific issue and question that omission instead of launching into a rant about incompetence and your personal concerns about chagrin. One strategy seems to go directly to correcting a technical issue while the chosen approach of twisting facts and personal attack is just trolling a fight.

No time for any more of your nonsense....
==========

In any case, for the readers who held on through all the posturing and non-technical BS, I hope that I've belatedly clarified the missing DZ47-63 qualification in my post above and any unintended remarks about suitability of the other non-DZ47-63 breakers on the linked vendor page >>here<<. I cannot actually locate datasheets for those other parts, but on the face of it they do have attractive voltage ratings. Also, these are all push button reset style breakers and so cannot be used as switches which takes the second important concern of cycle life off the table. My only remark would be that while the button style offers value in being able to field-reset without needing a spare fuse, the absence of a toggle for use as a main power cutoff loses a great advantage in using a breaker in the first place - but different strokes... :D
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Buk___   10 kW

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Re: ?? 100+Amp circuit breakers

Post by Buk___ » Feb 21 2018 11:48pm

teklektik wrote:
Feb 21 2018 7:37pm
Normally I'd leave you throwing your troll tantrum, but you *finally* got out one sentence that is interesting:
I wrote 7 words, to cover a link; you responded with 400words of misinformation. YOU ARE THE TANTRUMING TROLL HERE.

And I'm meant to make allowances for the fact that you didn't read the entire link because you were using your mobile? How am I meant to know that?

Solution: Don't post unresearched, knee-jerk technical BS.

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Re: ?? 100+Amp circuit breakers

Post by MileHighGuy » May 07 2018 5:14pm

Wow thank you everyone for your input here I really appreciate the time you all have taken to explain your knowledge here!! I haven't been on here in a few months as my project had taken a stand still until I had the funds to continue. Lol I had purchased a box full of house circuit breakers at a place here where I live called "habitat for humanity" a Goodwill of sorts for mostly used supplies for your home at huge discount to retail. So the breakers I spent about $30 and got about 15 or so lol I didn't even think to factor the AC/DC differences in this and thank you for pointing that out everyone! I was originally going to use 18650 cells to make a pack from used laptop and eBay lot purchases. I spent a good $600 on these used cells and wound up not being able to use any of them due to the lack of amps these produce. I have a 24fet 150v 300amp capable controller with a QS205 50H hub motor and needed a pack that I could squeeze 8000w out of and have decided due to my budget to go with some cells I found on eBay from seller alarmhookup that are lipo pouch cells 8Ah 200amp continuous cells. I need a breaker for this type of system. And a push in the right direction as to how to connect these into a pack that is 22s 3p. I have already ordered 44 of these 3.7v 8ah 200amp pouch cells and will be ordering 24more when I get paid in a week as well. I hear that this can be tricky due to the aluminum and copper terminals pouch cells have. Any suggestions here?

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