E-Cruiser / Harley build

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E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby Animalector » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:48 am

Inspired by this thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=46513 I want to build an E-Cruiser / Harley.

My design objectives:

    It must be a cruiser - Rigid or softail
    Registered / Engineered
    Freeway speed capable 110km/h
    Range of 110km as follows 75km @ 100km/h, 15km @ 80km/h, 20km @ 60km/h
    powerful enough so I don't get laughed at. :twisted: :twisted:
    Voltage compatible with my home solar-hybrid inverter (48V with suitable CANBus BMS)


Immediately some things that stand out are:
freeway speeds @ 48V (this could be a problem), likewise a 110km range without 100% DOD. depending on the size of the pack

Currently this is the bike that is a potential doner, the Yamaha XVS 1300A or perhaps it's baby brother the XVS650.
Image

The XVS1300A has a belt final drive, 30:70 final reduction, and rear wheel of 170/70R16 with a rolling circumference of 2044mm
To achieve my desired road speed of 110km/h I get a rear wheel RPM of 110km/h * 1000 / 60 / 2.024 = 905 rear wheel RPM

There are only two motor options - Mid Drive / Hub Motor

If I go mid drive (probably not though, refer to my comments further down) the FInal drive ratio will determine the motor KV. with a standard final drive of 2.33, motor RPM = 2108RPM of a KV of 43
If I go Hub Motor the KV is simple 905 / 48 = 19 (ish)

Carrie from QS emailed me a list of compatible Hub Motors of which, two show potential:
LINK TO V3 QS 8000W MOTOR
80x2T - KV 19.10
12x8T (in parallel) - KV 20.14
**** WHAT DO PEOPLE THINK OF THESE TWO WINDING OPTIONS *****

From the Goldenmotor website, the mid-drive options are as follows:
http://www.goldenmotor.com/eMotorcycle/frame-emotor.htm
10KW ($665 USD)
Image
or 20kw ($1600USD)
Image
The issue with either of these mid-drives is that they take up valuable space

Originally I had considered a rigid custom chopper chassis like this:
Image
but when I spoke to the custom motorcycle shop, they said the engineering costs would be in the order of $5000. I get get a lot of batteries for $5000. So I decided to go with a factory bike, and motor conversion which is "apparently" a different set of rules, and under $1000 for engineering costs. The benefit of this frame design is a space for the motor, leaving a large space up front for batteries. With the XVS1300 frame, the rear suspension takes up much of this space.

Back to the requirements... powerful enough so I don't get laughed at. :twisted: :twisted: For this I had set in my mind 40kW but perhaps this isn't as important if the torque is there to make "worthy" acceleration. That is, if I pull up next to another harley, I will either beat it to the next lights or at least not lose by much... Stock 100 cubic inch motors are around 100Nm torque our electrics should do this pretty easily. The direct drive QS hubby above states 86Nm, but the table in the link shows about 280Nm from around 170A. Probably sufficient??? *** IS THIS ENOUGH?? ***

To Run this thing, I'd be looking at eiher a QSKLS controller from QS motors (Kellys with QS Badge) or an APT. The advantage of the APT is that it apparently does field weakening, and 600 phase Amps
LINK TO APT Controller HERE

I'll skip over Contactors, pre-charge, cable and other accessories like DC/DC converter, and just budget like $500 for all that crap

BATTERIES!!! The most expensive component of the build. Requirements: Voltage compatible with my home solar-hybrid inverter (48V with suitable CANBus BMS)
16S LiFePO4 or 14S LiNCM or 18650 LiPo is where we're at for the terminal voltage compatible with the Solar Hybrid System Link to Sungrow SH5K article.
I have found a few BMS commercially for between $500 and $1000 that support CANBus and are supposed to be compatible Both the SH5K inverter and the SMA SunnyIsland are compatible with the LG Chem RESI 6.4kWh battery, and the BMS I found it compatible with the SMA so I assume it would work with the SH5K as well.. getting these specs from the manufacturers is "difficult". Anyway, there are a few CANBus BMS modules from Bestech HERE that might do the job, when they get back from holidays I will ask the question and see if I can get a summary of the protocols they use.

Requirement: Range of 110km as follows 75km @ 100km/h, 15km @ 80km/h, 20km @ 60km/h
I estimate 100Wh/km @ 100km/h based on reviews i have read for the Zero, and other electric bikes... I estimate 65wh/km @ 80km/h and maybe 40Wh/km @ 60km/h add all that up.. 100 * 75 + 65 * 15 + 40 * 20 = 9275Wh or a 10kWh pack... @ 48V nominal this is 200Ah. (ish)

Ok so, I considered Sanyo 18650GA 3400mAh per cell. That's 200 / 3.4 * 16 = 941 cells !!!! that's a lot of tab welding... Price is $3.49USD per cell in quantity that's $4700 AUD plus whatever import fees, plus shipping.. $5500 all up probably. Plus nickle strips, plus tab welder, plus holders / joiners plus time plus time plus time plus time.. etc... you get the idea.
I also found these things...100Ah Cylindrical LifePO4 Cells, 78mm D x 380mm long Threaded terminals. rated at 100A nominal discharge, 300A max and 1000A pulse.. The threaded terminals will make connection simple, laser cut some end plates and "Robert's your mother's brother" as my father used to say... :mrgreen:

I haven't confirmed availability yet, but these will fit well within the frame ONLY IF I RUN A HUB MOTOR..... If I have a Mid-Drive, 10k, using a 20Ah variation of the cells above, the best I can fit is 180Ah, using 144 cells.. a lot more interconnects. I imported an image from the workshop manual into solid works, scaled it using a photo of the bike, the known wheelbase and some reference points on the frame, and inserted a pattern fill of the different cell sizes (there are also 50Ah 55mm cells but they don't give a usable multiple of 16S LifePo4 cells.)
image.png
image.png (168.96 KiB) Viewed 1122 times

I like the 100Ah cells because there are 200Ah at 16S (32 cells total) - Interconnects are easy, plenty of available space for controllers above or behind the pack, and LiFePO4 has good discharge, and cell lifecycle. Can I get them?? who knows... I only found one youtube video of somene in russia with one in hand... not a lot of web info about them.

So that's about where I am up to so far.. Estimated costs (in AUD) are as follows:
Doner Bike (if I can find one): $3000
Motor: $1100 delivered
Controllers $1333 delivered (allowance for 2 just in case the motor can run split phases.)
Batteries: $5333 + delivery (based on $1USD / Ah roughly)
BMS: $500
Cycle Analyst + switchgear: $750
Charger: $500
Engineering and Rego: $2000

Total $14,516 plus a 10% contingency and round up to $16,000. (maybe)

Comments, thoughts and advice welcomed... please :idea: :mrgreen:

Regards,
Andy
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Re: E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby izeman » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:16 pm

great andy! nice to see a very promising build.
keep one thing in mind: torque is for acceleration, power is for top speed. as simple as that. so you probably would prefer a high torque motor over top power. 40kW is a nice goal but not needed for 100km/h. my bmw needs less power for keeping 100km/h.
on the other hand you need big phase amps for torque. so you need a big controller. :)

re batteries: i would NOT risk investing 5.000.- in batteries of unknown source and unknown/non proofen data.
building a 18650 pack is a lot of work, but you can add a lot of cells in multiple big packs. and you can get proofen cells.
there are other battery sources like nissan leaf cells as well. i don't know there exact size but you can look them up somewhere here.
Last edited by izeman on Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby E-Chopper » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:38 pm

Nice Project !!! i stay tuned !

i Love E-Chopper Build´s

But one thing is that often you can´t see the DC-Motor why they always cover it .
In my opinion the motor must be visble like on a gas Chopper .
Image

keep it up !
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Re: E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby Animalector » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:17 pm

headway advertise on their website that they are building 50Ah and 100Ah cells in that format and they are popular for EV builds. They also have a pretty good reputation for longevity and performance (current delivery). I am.awaiting their response. (Chinese new year)

I agree torque is where it's at, with a top speed of only 110kmh big power is not really required. From the hub motor figures I think their torque rating is reasonable. I should work out the acceleration based on their torque.figures and the wheel diameter.. Todo...

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Re: E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby izeman » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:08 am

Animalector wrote:headway .... They also have a pretty good reputation for longevity and performance (current delivery). ...

headway cells are known for their performance? since when? headway cells were quite common a while ago, but there is much better (energy density wise) chemisty around nowadays. headways are known to sag a LOT, as all lifepo4 does. they are heavy, and hold less energy than 18650 cells.
i'm not saying that those are inappropriate cells for your application, but imho there are batteries that are bullet proof, and you can get them from reliable sources and don't risk burning money. i know of quite some ppl who though that headway cells (the smaller 10Ah ones) and turned away from them quickly.
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Re: E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby izeman » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:13 am

btw: those 100Ah cells, which are said to give 100A cont and 300A max, will output 200A/600A in a 2p configuration. with 50V (16s x 3.2V nom) this will give you 10kW cont and 30kW peak. this imho seems too little for your demands.
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Re: E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby Animalector » Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:43 am

I see your point. Yes 18650 is more dense... But that's a lot of cells.... That's all that worries me. Plus what's their cycle life compared to lifepo?

Anyway I've got some messages out awaiting responses including for 18650 cells. I'll wait until I get all the information back before moving on anything.

Thanks

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Re: E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby izeman » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:24 am

Animalector wrote:I see your point. Yes 18650 is more dense... But that's a lot of cells.... That's all that worries me. Plus what's their cycle life compared to lifepo?

good point. depends on your needs. my a123 lifepo4 20Ah cells hold up VERY well. but 18650 should be good for 2 years daily usage as well.
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Re: E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby Animalector » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:31 pm

2 years daily usage isn't a good statistic... If I build this bike particularly for connection to my solar energy storage, I'm looking for 10years optimistically.

For home solar storage use the pack.will never see more than 50% DOD. For the bike, I expect 2 trips per week maybe 3 probably to 90% DOD. according to the specs Lifepo4 seems to provide the required lifespan.

Just received a quote for Samsung INR18650 35E welded into 3 x 11p modules x 32 modules for $6600 delivered.

Have to model this to see how it fits in the frame space.
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Re: E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby izeman » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:55 am

13.5kWh. Wow! Nice :)
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Re: E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby liveforphysics » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:04 am

May end up cheaper buying a 2017 zero and putting its drivetrain in your frame.
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Re: E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby Animalector » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:48 am

Maybe if you live in the US. Last time I looked they were about 27k AUD, or thereabouts.

You don't think QSmotor and 48v pack is the way to go?

A zero drive train wouldn't be voltage compatible with my solar system either.. Hmmm
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Re: E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby Animalector » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:25 pm

Just looking at the Samsung INR18650 35E datasheet, it specs 500 cycles to 60% capacity at 1C discharge to 2.65v. That's not a lot of cycles really..
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Re: E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby bamitsram » Wed May 17, 2017 4:21 am

These things already handle like a boat.
Stick your biggest enertrac or qsmotor hubmotor in it - its not going to make handling any worse, simplifies the mechanics and gives you a massive room for batteries.
For batteries, sling the long portion of a leaf pack between your legs, 24 modules is 24s @120ah, sure, its heavy but this bike was already heavy.
Get a watercooling setup for the motor and controller for keeping the temps down under high power operation.
Image
Just a quick bunch of measurements from counting pixels, you could fit 20 modules inside the frame in one continuous group for 20S 2P, however, if you're really good friends with a welder, cut and stretch the frame by say 4 inches and you can fit all 24, that'd give you a real nice pack voltage, then stick a big controller under the seat, a contractor and dc-dc in the old fuel tank.
http://www.cnqsmotor.com/en/article_rea ... r/538.html

I think you'd be looking at a bike that weighed very similar to stock, had reasonable power and could do 100miles on a charge.

I don't think peak power is an issue for that hub motor but continuous power would be - hence the water cooling.
Last edited by bamitsram on Wed May 17, 2017 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby Animalector » Wed May 17, 2017 10:43 am

If I cut and stretch the frame I'm looking at another $5000 with of engineering costs for someone to approve it.

If I stick with just bolt on hubbie and battery in existing frame is only minor modification and cheaper to engineer. So I have been told. These are the rules in Australia.

I have no money for this undertaking. It's a great dream. But until I win the lottery I don't think it'll go far...

I still don't get how Tesla are using 18650 cells when they're Life cycle rating is only 500 cycle. I'm sure I read somewhere that Tesla are using much higher Life cycle cells. But where can I buy these? (Aside from tearing apart a Tesla)
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Re: E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby bamitsram » Wed May 17, 2017 6:44 pm

Ahh, i should have seen.
Yeah, i looked into that - i literally couldn't find a single place in NSW who was qualified by the RTA to do chassis inspections for engineering certificates on motorcycles, I assume it would be similar in QLD.
Thats because Tesla aren't using standard off the shelf 18650s, the same way Nissan aren't using hobbyking pouches.
Tesla cells arent as energy dense as say a LG 18650MJ1 or a or a Sony NCR18650GA nor are they as power dense as the cells you find in todays ebikes. They don't just compromise between the two, but they also compromise for increased cycle life, using thicker electrodes, adding additional anti oxidizing agents and using more electrolyte material. Basically the only place to get Tesla cells is Tesla.
I really should suggest leaf modules though - they are quite cheap, and assembling the capacity that you aim to achieve is much more practical and the cycle life is much better, you'd be looking at a pack of somewhere near 1000 18650s compared to 20 leaf modules, in series parallel giving 20s @ 120ah or 40s@60ah or something somewhere inbetween.
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Re: E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby Animalector » Thu May 18, 2017 8:04 pm

Where is a good source of Leaf Cells? Over seas or locally?

Might be time to invest.
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Re: E-Cruiser / Harley build

Postby bamitsram » Fri May 19, 2017 12:01 am

I dont think leafs were bought into australia, i bought a full leaf pack from a vehicle with 30,000 km on it from japan, delivered for $3300aud~
About half of that was shipping, customs, taxes and fees.
A capacity check showed 60.5ah/62ah.

Either import a pack or try find someone who has already done that and wants to part with some cells
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