Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Show off your E-Scooter or Motorcycle creation here.
User avatar
minde28383   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 408
Joined: Apr 02 2010 7:11am

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by minde28383 » Jun 13 2018 4:37am

Bikebrap wrote:
Jun 13 2018 3:37am
Also, chain is ultra loud, like 2-stroke engine loud :/
It's because small sprocket is between ~12 teeth and rear one ~52 teeth. Front small sprocket spins quickly and the chain is smashing at high rpm at front sprocket teeth, therefore the sound. You can decrease sound increasing front sprocket teeth by few teeth and decrease rear sprocket teeth or leave rear sprocket as it is, change the ratio little bit, but it might have a negative effect on torque and efficiency and speed.

These motors were used in motorcycles with 48v or 52v or 60v don't remember exactly and where doing 100km/h with modest amperage. These motorcycles had ~ 4,8:1 ratio. This motor is quite slow and it is good in a matter if you want to have less sound in chain rear transmission.

eq. if front sprocket would 25teeth and rear 50teeth than it would be quiet, like with hub motor where it is used as mid-drive motor like in vector or new quilbix frames.

Another option to use pulleys and belt instead of the chain but then again propper belt tension becomes problematic and technically challenging.

Bikebrap   1 W

1 W
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 07 2015 4:56am

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Jun 13 2018 1:16pm

Yeah, was aware of small sprocket problem before bulit, but I didn't know it would be this bad. I aimed for high torque so that's why 13/90 sprockets.
Belt was in plan before chain, but chain was a quicker solution. Now that I have more time and figgured out how to make huge rear belt pulley I might give it a shot.

User avatar
trazor   10 W

10 W
Posts: 90
Joined: Jan 13 2015 10:48pm
Contact:

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by trazor » Jun 13 2018 10:53pm

I'm a bit late to this thread. Amazing work!

Caution with tensioners in the chain load side. They can take a big amount of force and deform or brake them. I think that in conversion projects is always better to position motor output shaft on the same point as the original, if possible. Great work!

Bikebrap   1 W

1 W
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 07 2015 4:56am

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Sep 12 2018 10:05am

Kelly KLS-7230S just arrived.

72V
300A burst
gonna put huge ass heat sink on it
(btw my phase wires melted and shorted out on old controller. Controller is stil alive :) It had both side covers oppened and fan blowing air trough. That is why I finally ordered kelly)
aaand.... it's a sine wave so everything should be a lot quiter :D
Attachments
20180912_155159_Richtone(HDR).jpg

User avatar
minde28383   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 408
Joined: Apr 02 2010 7:11am

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by minde28383 » Sep 12 2018 10:16am

This kelly 300A will be ok, but I would preffer 500A or 550A phase for this motor.
How much you payed for this Kelly?

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 13087
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by fechter » Sep 12 2018 3:19pm

The Kelly should be good for the 4kW limit, but that motor looks like it could take way more for bursts.

Too bad the Sevcon programming is such a nightmare. It's a great controller once everything is dialed in but there are only a few people in the world that understand what all the parameters do.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

whereswally606   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1106
Joined: Jun 19 2011 2:11pm
Location: Cheshire, UK

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by whereswally606 » Sep 13 2018 12:16pm

sorry bikebrap you got mail, sorry I didn't see your post earlier re SEVCONs
Distributing "Lebowski" FOC Controller PCB (Through hole) since 2016
Moped: Emax 110s 2009

User avatar
minde28383   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 408
Joined: Apr 02 2010 7:11am

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by minde28383 » Sep 13 2018 1:24pm

I too gave up on Sevcon regarding its programming and sold it and bought Sabvoton. Use it for few times and new Sabvoton controller broke. I hope you will have better luck with Kelly.

Bikebrap   1 W

1 W
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 07 2015 4:56am

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Oct 06 2018 1:52am

Didn't have time to update this before so here it is.
Took out batteries from my bicycle. They were welded in three packs when I bought them. I disassembled everyhing, ripped appart all the welds from tabs and sanded them a bit for easier welding afterwards.
20180620_164841.jpg
20180711_130058.jpg
20180711_181959.jpg
Printed out formers so they match 20s7p perfectlly.
20180713_135122.jpg
Had to glue two parts toghther because whole part is larger than print surface. Glued portion even has greather streangth than the part itself.
20180712_160023.jpg
20180713_221446.jpg
20180713_224109.jpg

Bikebrap   1 W

1 W
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 07 2015 4:56am

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Oct 06 2018 2:13am

Kelly is mounted on the bike.
Motor has sin/cos resolver so I had to make my own hall encoder.
20180928_214828.jpg
20180929_155418.jpg
20180928_224812.jpg
20180929_233314.jpg
Aligning the encoder so it is in phase with the motor phases.

Kelly had no torque at low rpm and slow response even with all current maxed out in settings.
I tought Kp and Ki settings were not for my controller as it was nowhere mentioned that is has any kind of PID regulator so I assumed that setting were for some other controllers.
By playing with Kp Ki and Speed err limit (whatever "speed" err limit" is, could not find good info) I got much better response but still has no torque when standing still or when speed is bellow 0.5 kmh. Seems like I'm nitpicking here but I really want to be able to lauch from stand still, or to have all torque when stuck in mud or sand, or on uphill.
Problem is that the structure of this internal regulator nor good explanation of his parameters is described well anywhere. Manual has minimal info on them, just says Kp is proportional and Ki is integral, like, yeah but of what, what is input, what is regulated, what is output, in which units, nothing.

User avatar
minde28383   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 408
Joined: Apr 02 2010 7:11am

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by minde28383 » Oct 06 2018 3:20am

I too now that Kelly controllers like yours does not have good torque from stand still when used with hubs. Looks like it has similar effect on mid drives too, nevertheless it is less noticeable in mid drives due reduction.

User avatar
minde28383   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 408
Joined: Apr 02 2010 7:11am

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by minde28383 » Oct 06 2018 3:54am

Your sin/cos resolver is very nice. Actually it is amazing...
What printer you are using?
Is it DIY printer from parts or you bought it as 'ready to print'? What's model, make?
I'm very curious about 3d printers, but don't have personal experience using them. Time after time i need to do some little box or nob or lever for my rare diy home projects. 3D printers used to be very expensive, but know I see online some cheap small 3d printers.

my few thoughts about Kelly and Sabvoton controllers, and overall.
I think I now few technically inclined people but they did not know if something can be done to overcome soft start from stand still with specific controller. As of many manufacturers Kelly Software is what it is. Their app don't have much accessible parameters to be set on their application user interface, not open source for sure. By keeping certain parameters locked or within certain manufacturer preserve and prolong their controller working hours. It basically reduces controller fault rate therefore end users would see it as - controllers which tend to brake less. That is how I see manufacturer policy.
Kelly soft start was and still is the main and the only reason why I recommend Sabvoton. I don't want to be too much one one side or another, but for now I will say that Sabvoton controllers are not perfect too. My last and practically new Sabvoton controller is in service center right now, software issue, not blown fets, caps etc, issue with software inside controller logic (inside). Depending on what outcome from service center I think I might write somewhere what ''great'' experience I had with 4 out of 5 Sabvotons I dealt.

Bikebrap   1 W

1 W
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 07 2015 4:56am

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Oct 17 2018 9:18am

Kelly controler test
Kp set ultra high

Bikebrap   1 W

1 W
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 07 2015 4:56am

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Oct 17 2018 9:26am

minde28383 wrote:
Oct 06 2018 3:20am
I too now that Kelly controllers like yours does not have good torque from stand still when used with hubs. Looks like it has similar effect on mid drives too, nevertheless it is less noticeable in mid drives due reduction.
I managed to enhance throttle response by setting Kp and Ky relly high. Because I don't know the structure of actual regulator I don't have a feeling for these parameters, by default they were obviously set toooo low for this motor.

This encoder was printed on friend's ultimaker, but now I got an Ender 3 from Creality for 200$ and the prints are unbelievably good
Last edited by Bikebrap on Oct 19 2018 10:46am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Arlo1   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 8171
Joined: Apr 26 2009 10:36pm
Location: Nanaimo
Contact:

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Arlo1 » Oct 18 2018 9:01pm

Nice work. Where did you get the rear sprocket machined at and what did it cost?
My Leaf motor controller build. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
Support me on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/user/posts?u=6842045
http://www.undergroundelectrics.ca/

Bikebrap   1 W

1 W
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 07 2015 4:56am

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Oct 22 2018 11:24am

Arlo1 wrote:
Oct 18 2018 9:01pm
Nice work. Where did you get the rear sprocket machined at and what did it cost?
I constructed it in solidworks and sent .dxf to my friend who has all kinds of machines soo.. yeah... paid around 100$ if I remember correctly, together with battery boxes.. for material only

Bikebrap   1 W

1 W
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 07 2015 4:56am

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Oct 22 2018 11:33am

Did some "wannabe" aesthetic touch up :P Need to remove that bulky instrument cluster and mount headlamp on forks, it is now fixed on chassis.
And added a heatsing to kelly controller, will add a fan too but it doesn't look like it needs it :)

also burst 300A is definned only by "10 seconds". It does not say in which intervals, or is it just some aproximation of thermal limit. Not sure what am I getting because it doesn't feel powerfull as it should.
20181021_151237_Richtone(HDR).jpg
20181021_151034.jpg
20181021_154953.jpg
20181021_155720.jpg

Bikebrap   1 W

1 W
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 07 2015 4:56am

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Oct 27 2018 6:34am

Motor overheated & demagnetised.

So now that I added a heatsink, contoller was no longer cutting down power. So after a long non-stop ride with regenerative braking enabled the motor overheated and demagnetized. I was riding at constant speed, not too aggresive, around 3/4 throttle. So I suspect that motor was already a bit demagnetised because this should not cause overhating of the motor that is rated for 7kW continous. Another clue is what I mentioned earlier, that the bike did not feel 22kW powerfull when kelly was maxed out.
So I asume it was demagnetised to 60-80% before, what combimed with not ideal aligement of my encoder caused too much heat generation at constant XY speed. All this combined with mud guard in front of the motor that obstructed air flow caused a magnet overheating and demagnetisazion because the motor was very very hot to touch. Now it has like 30% of torque compared to before and is preaty much usless and is gonna sit in the garage for now :confused:

Did not monitor motor temperature because I was not pushing it hard and it was very cold outside, nor was it ever too warm when riding.
Last edited by Bikebrap on Oct 28 2018 1:53pm, edited 6 times in total.

litespeed   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1293
Joined: Aug 11 2010 4:42pm
Location: St. Peters, Missouri

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by litespeed » Oct 27 2018 9:31am

That’s a bummer for you!

Hope to see you get back on this.

Tom
I'm married so you know I'm no stranger to pain!

Bikebrap   1 W

1 W
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 07 2015 4:56am

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Nov 02 2018 1:08pm

So I did some measurements to make sure what happend. Used old controller to get exactly half throttle/half pwm (kelly has regulators n sht) and messured rpm to get KV.
If rated voltage is 55V and rated rpm 6000 that gives KV of 109. (Heinzman datasheet)
At 50% PMW or 41V (82V Batt) motor spins at 9000 which is KV of 219

BUT.. The same Heinzmann datasheet spcifies Ke of 4.44 [V/1000rpm] which is KV of 227
and if I spin motor manualy at 1950 rpm I get 25Vpp which is KV of 78 for peak to peak voltage between phases.
Heinzman datasheet.PNG
Here is one of the mesuremens where I mesured both stators. Yelow is one stator and blue is the other on the same phase. Heinzman has two separated stators ,as it is axial flux motor, thay get connected together outside. There is this weird ripple on every mesurement. Probably from one of the magnets. Also on both controllers motor sounds like it is gasoline engine on launch-control when I twist on fullt throttle, rpms oscilate.
SDS00014.jpg
SDS00014.jpg (63.77 KiB) Viewed 683 times


In the mean time I'm making a spredsheet that compares motors in one comparable unit, I think that would be (Peak power/mass)/max rpm.. or Torque/mass so from that number you can see who deviates a lot and has that number "too good". The more data the better.

User avatar
eee291   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 710
Joined: Nov 05 2015 4:35pm
Location: Austria, Burgenland: Güssing

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by eee291 » Dec 05 2018 1:02am

Hi, I really like your build.


Could it be that you hall sensor converter was lagging behind at higher rpm?
This would make the Controller apply current at the wrong time causing the Motor to overheat.

I don't know if you mentioned it but what did the registration cost?

Bikebrap   1 W

1 W
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 07 2015 4:56am

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Dec 22 2018 3:21pm

////
Last edited by Bikebrap on Dec 22 2018 3:31pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bikebrap   1 W

1 W
Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 07 2015 4:56am

Re: Cagiva Supermoto Bulid (4kW Legal)

Post by Bikebrap » Dec 22 2018 3:30pm

eee291 wrote:
Dec 05 2018 1:02am
Hi, I really like your build.


Could it be that you hall sensor converter was lagging behind at higher rpm?
This would make the Controller apply current at the wrong time causing the Motor to overheat.

I don't know if you mentioned it but what did the registration cost?
It is possible if you refer to arduino converter. It has about 10kHz sampling rate for analogRead if I remember correctly. So the limit is around 6000 rpm (at that speed delay is about equal to 1/6 of phase frequency or one hall signal going up or down.). But that doesn't matter as hall signals in controllers are used only at low speeds for taking off. Later these controllers often switch to zero-crossing detection for phase commuting as they do all the time if you run them sensorless. In that mode they have trouble with taking off but can in fact do it, just not as smooth.

But in the end I was using that converter only for short period. The real hall encoder that was printed afterwards was working fine as those are the same hall sensors used in other motors. I just placed them on other location. And that hall sensors are analog technology so much faster than any processor. Only problem was making sure that everything is in phase with internal magnets and stator.

Registration was around 250$

Post Reply