Yamaha YZ250F

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BenBenBen   1 W

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by BenBenBen » Jun 26 2022 11:13am

There is this kind of stuff:

https://evea-kartmasters.fr/fr/relais-d ... -zeva.html

Don't know exactly were they find it, or even if they produce it themself, but it seems to be designed exactly for what you want to do.

Explanations are in French, but it's simple. Whey you turn the key on, it charges your controller and wait for voltage to be equal (or almost) on both sided to close the main contactor.

EDIT: The datasheet is in english, I posted it bellow
Attachments
SmartPrechargerV1-3[1].pdf
(664.6 KiB) Downloaded 29 times

j bjork   1 MW

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jun 26 2022 1:15pm

That sure looks interesting, but it seems to be unavailable?

I have been trying to get contact with the computer over Bluetooth, I am not sure if I am supposed to?
I didnt get any programming cable.
I get connection with the phone, but havent been able to do any self learn or angle correction.

I have a constant beeping from the controller that is very annoying :evil:

BenBenBen   1 W

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by BenBenBen » Jun 26 2022 1:29pm

j bjork wrote:
Jun 26 2022 1:15pm
That sure looks interesting, but it seems to be unavailable?
No idea. Never tried it, just spotted it for future project in case of need.

The manufacturer seems to be an Australian company, you got their website link in the PDF datasheet. Maybe you can contact them

BenBenBen   1 W

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by BenBenBen » Jun 26 2022 1:39pm

You also got that kind of stuff:

https://www.offgridsoftwaresolutions.co ... djustable/

It seems to be just a basic delay module. The other one looks better and safer.

dougf   10 W

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by dougf » Jun 26 2022 5:41pm

As you said mines a bit different because of the 12v system. Basically you cant switch the batt DC with any generic switch without burning, welding and arcing. Im going to guess that the voltage converter is responsible for your welded relay because they also have capacitors and need to precharge. I used a p-chan mosfet to turn on the converter, then i can charge the main caps with a resistor. The resistor is important because if you try and ride without the main contactor in it will protect the mosfet. You will need a diode to prevent the bike from turning off.
20220217_161811.jpg
20220217_161811.jpg (1.18 MiB) Viewed 1140 times
I also potted in resin for better heat disappation because im basically using the mosfet exactly how you shouldnt :wink: .

Doug

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by BenBenBen » Jun 27 2022 12:56am

Hey, Your right, they stopped production. But good news is that they openen all the design (PCB gerbers, BOM, Firmware etc...) so you can make one of more. Or even integrate it in your design.

Look at the zip attached
Attachments
ZEVA_Smart_Precharger.zip
(178.08 KiB) Downloaded 30 times
Example Picture.jpg
Example Picture.jpg (72.64 KiB) Viewed 1115 times

j bjork   1 MW

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jun 27 2022 1:43pm

Doug, so that is the circuit to run a dc dc converter?

So in the top is the positive connection, from the left a 1uf cap, a 1Mohm resistor, in green a diode or a zener diode?, mosfet.
In the bottom negative connection, a resistor 100Kohm ?, Reg, is that the converter?, Then another box connected with one wire?

Ben, interesting but seems complicated for me..
I have looked at these kind of files sometime, so I guess I should have a program for it somewhere.
Computer and electronics are two subjects where my knowledge is limited :?

If I can manage to get it sorted and build something or have it built, it should also be programmed somehow it seems.

At the moment I struggle with the controller:

Image

I have actually finally been able to connect with the phone with Bluetooth, and also a computer with a usb cable I modified.
But it seems like I am stuck is self learn, it constantly beeps in a very annoying way in idle.
If I give throttle it change the phase offset a little every time, eventually it starts rotating backwards.
After a while and a lot of throttle on/off it goes forward again and this just goes on and on..

BenBenBen   1 W

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by BenBenBen » Jun 27 2022 1:48pm

j bjork wrote:
Jun 27 2022 1:43pm


Ben, interesting but seems complicated for me..
I have looked at these kind of files sometime, so I guess I should have a program for it somewhere.
Computer and electronics are two subjects where my knowledge is limited :?
Not my best field too... But probably someone here that could be motivated and qualified :) I guess this module could make life easy for a significant amount of people out there that are in trouble with pre charge stuffin'...

speedy1984   100 W

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by speedy1984 » Jun 27 2022 4:41pm

Think that maybe the temp sensor thats beeping.

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by speedy1984 » Jun 27 2022 4:43pm

speedy1984 wrote:
Jun 27 2022 4:41pm
Think that maybe the temp sensor thats beeping.
https://youtu.be/gl64_oTQa1w

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by dougf » Jun 27 2022 7:11pm

Hopefully this drawing is a bit clearer.
20220628_080012.jpg
20220628_080012.jpg (1.37 MiB) Viewed 1054 times
Essentially what im doing is extending the charge time on the mosfet gate with an RC filter. From memory those values i have give an on time in the order of 200ms. Dramatically drops the inrush current. It also lets you switch the 100VDC without welding the contacts. On my bike, this circuit powers up my dc-dc converter, charges the main caps in the drive via a resistor and supplys voltage to the 60VKey wire to turn the drive on. You will need a diode to block reverse current flow from the precharge circuit back into the 60Vkey wire and keeping the drive on even if you turn the key off.

I realise this looks complicated. Is a softstart precharge controller something some of you guys would want? I can design and make some.

Doug

j bjork   1 MW

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jun 28 2022 11:07am

speedy1984 wrote:
Jun 27 2022 4:43pm
speedy1984 wrote:
Jun 27 2022 4:41pm
Think that maybe the temp sensor thats beeping.
https://youtu.be/gl64_oTQa1w
Thanks, no temp sensor problem though. It was in self learn all the time, I just had to keep holding full throttle until it was satisfied.
I didnt think it was supposed to stay at 6000+ rpm for a while, but it was.
I saw something about 0.5sec on 0.5sec off throttle a few times in the manual, I tried that. And something about ground the brake, and I didnt get any of those to work.
But now it is done, and the beeping has stopped :)

j bjork   1 MW

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jun 28 2022 11:31am

dougf wrote:
Jun 27 2022 7:11pm
Hopefully this drawing is a bit clearer.

I realise this looks complicated. Is a softstart precharge controller something some of you guys would want? I can design and make some.

Doug
I dont think your inrush limiter looks complicated, if that was what you meant? It looks easy to build, but a little hard to understand for a noob :oops:
I think you must have left out a resistor on the negative side in series with the switch?
As it is now the gate would get grounded right away when the switch closes if I am not mistaken.

When the switch closes current would flow through the resistors. Charging the cap takes some time, and during that time the gate voltage decreases and the mosfet starts conducting slowly making it a resistor (with voltage drop when put under load). When the gate reaches 9v under the 100v source (91v)the current starts flowing through the zener diode and the gate is then kept at that voltage.
Hopefully that means the mosfet is fully on, with a minimal voltage drop.
Please correct me if i am wrong :)

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jun 28 2022 11:48am

Here is some kind of simple sketch of how my system works now:

Image

Inside the battery is a small relay that controls the positive to the dc converter, the pre charge and "key lock" on the fardriver.
That relay is controlled by a "ignition"switch and the bms.

Can I use the inrush limiter when the switch is on the positive side?

I would sure be interested in a pre charge controller that check that the pre charge is finished before the contactors close.
It would probably work like it is, as long as the load isnt too much on the relay. But a controlled pre charge would feel safer.

speedy1984   100 W

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by speedy1984 » Jun 28 2022 3:42pm

j bjork wrote:
Jun 28 2022 11:07am
speedy1984 wrote:
Jun 27 2022 4:43pm
speedy1984 wrote:
Jun 27 2022 4:41pm
Think that maybe the temp sensor thats beeping.
https://youtu.be/gl64_oTQa1w
Thanks, no temp sensor problem though. It was in self learn all the time, I just had to keep holding full throttle until it was satisfied.
I didnt think it was supposed to stay at 6000+ rpm for a while, but it was.
I saw something about 0.5sec on 0.5sec off throttle a few times in the manual, I tried that. And something about ground the brake, and I didnt get any of those to work.
But now it is done, and the beeping has stopped :)
Glad you sorted it fella :thumb:

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by liveforphysics » Jun 28 2022 3:49pm

Stoked to see this machine rip!
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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by dougf » Jun 28 2022 5:44pm

Yeah you're right, i forgot the resistor in series with the switch :? . You worked it out though. You can replace your mechanical relay in the battery with this circuit to stop it welding. Does your BMS have a main current switch? That is to say it will disconnect the pack if you overcurrent? With a solid state relay you probably dont need to precharge at all. They are mostly to protect contactors.

Doug

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jun 29 2022 5:46am

liveforphysics wrote:
Jun 28 2022 3:49pm
Stoked to see this machine rip!
Thanks, me too!

Doug
I should see what I need and how long it would take to get it. It could be interesting to mount one in the battery with the welded contactor when cut it open.

The bms is disconnected from the main current (except for the shunt). But it can cut off the charger and the signal wire to the "ignition" switch.
So if the bms cut it turns off "ignition" and thereby power to the dc converter and by that the contactors open.

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jul 01 2022 5:03am

Would this mosfet be ok? "IRFU6215PBF Power MOSFET, P Channel, 150 V, 13 A, 0.295 ohm, TO-251AA, Through Hole"
https://4donline.ihs.com/images/VipMast ... 234799DDF0
They are referring to 10v gate, does that mean a zener diode with a little higher v is better? Like 12v or so, instead of the 9v.

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by dougf » Jul 02 2022 1:01am

Should be fine. The zener is only for protection so as long as its lower then the absolute max rating of 20v then it will be fine.

Interestingly, was looking at the contact control feature of my ND961800 and noticed it has a precharge circuit inside it. Its a bit on the slow side but thats from completely drained, i dont think they put a bleed resistor on the cap bank so it will probably hold charge for a long time. The contactor control in the fardriver is a bit rudimentey, looks like a fixed delay before closing a relay. I was hoping it would measure the voltage. Anyway, might be worth seeing if your controller also has the precharge circuit. Just feed batt+ into the 60Vkey wire without the battery connected to the main terminal while measuring the voltage on the controllers batt+ terminal lug. If it comes up to pack voltage you wont need an external circuit.

Doug

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by ray88 » Jul 03 2022 4:52am

j bjork wrote:
Jun 27 2022 1:43pm

At the moment I struggle with the controller:

Image

I have actually finally been able to connect with the phone with Bluetooth, and also a computer with a usb cable I modified.
But it seems like I am stuck is self learn, it constantly beeps in a very annoying way in idle.
If I give throttle it change the phase offset a little every time, eventually it starts rotating backwards.
After a while and a lot of throttle on/off it goes forward again and this just goes on and on..
You want to do the Auto learn with help of phone App and only then use PC software for fine tuning .

Here's a video on how to do it .
You hold the throttle wude open abd domt let go untill it finishes auro lern https://youtu.be/gl64_oTQa1w

If you need any help with settings or tuning please visit Electric Motorcycle Builds Facebook group., soo many people use these controller's..

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by larsb » Jul 03 2022 1:09pm

I saw that the fardriver app has an MTPA button, i could not get further into the menu since i don’t have a controller. Does it work? It’s highly interesting for IPM motors.

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jul 04 2022 2:20am

dougf wrote:
Jul 02 2022 1:01am
Should be fine. The zener is only for protection so as long as its lower then the absolute max rating of 20v then it will be fine.

Interestingly, was looking at the contact control feature of my ND961800 and noticed it has a precharge circuit inside it. Its a bit on the slow side but thats from completely drained, i dont think they put a bleed resistor on the cap bank so it will probably hold charge for a long time. The contactor control in the fardriver is a bit rudimentey, looks like a fixed delay before closing a relay. I was hoping it would measure the voltage. Anyway, might be worth seeing if your controller also has the precharge circuit. Just feed batt+ into the 60Vkey wire without the battery connected to the main terminal while measuring the voltage on the controllers batt+ terminal lug. If it comes up to pack voltage you wont need an external circuit.

Doug
It seems those mosfets are unavailable now, they only had a few. What should I look for, 150V<, 10A<, lower rds on is better?

Interesting on the pre charge, I will try. I dont think I have any contactor control circuit though. But there is a 60V out (the anti theft part) that I dont know what it does. Do you know what pin(s) in the controller connector your contactor control is connected to?

Ray88, it is sorted since a while back. Thanks anyway :)

Larsb,
I suppose you mean the symbol on the screen? I dont think there is a button to push. I dont know if it is real, the manual doesn't say anything about it.

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by larsb » Jul 04 2022 6:13am

Ok, too bad :wink: If it really had MTPA then i’d just get one. Does it have Id and Iq lookup tables somewhere? That’d also be interesting for IPMs

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jul 04 2022 7:38am

I dont really know, I think you can at least log id and iq.
Then there is this weird FW "depth" to set up each 500 rpm step, 0-100%
There are some other settings I dont really know what they are, I havent started tuning much yet.

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