Yamaha YZ250F

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dougf   10 W

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by dougf » Jul 04 2022 9:06pm

So long as the mosfet is rated for the voltage it should be fine. Lower Rds will mean less heat disappation while running but we are talking pretty low loss with most fets. Any TO220 or D2pak package will handle the current.

I believe the pinout of my 961800 is different internally. I queried the supplier about it when i first got the drive. The contactor control is basically useless because it doesnt wait for the caps to finish charging. If you lookup encoder version fardriver you should find some stuff.

Doug

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jul 11 2022 12:32pm

I decided to do a proper mount right away for the controller:

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Cut down the bracket for a good fit.

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Cut the phase and battery wires.
After that there are no turning back anyway, so I started with a cover for the controller as well:

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I went back to the trusted old fiberglass plug and mold.
I dont want to paint that plug, I wonder if I dare to take a chance with just release film :?
It is rounded in several directions, it would be hard to tape it without getting it hideous.

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jul 12 2022 1:36pm

I ended up taping most of the plug, just leaving the most rounded corners:

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That way I can test if the rest loosens but not the corners, then I know that just release film wont work.
But hopefully the damage wont be that bad, so the mold should still be useful :)
That is the plan anyway..

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Here it is, one layer gelcoat. I didnt want to wait to tomorrow to lay another one..
I waited an hour before starting with the fiberglass, and it seems to have worked out.
It was rather warm, maybe 25 degrees C and 1,5-2% hardener.

I dont think I have even test ridden the bike with the fardriver, so now seemed like a good time to do so.
And I started playing a little with the settings:

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There are some confusing things:

Rated speed, I havent tried changing it and I dont know if it is the default setting or a learnt setting after self learn.
The manual seems to list it as a learnt setting, but shouldnt it be about double of what it is?

I dont know what the LD, LQ, FAIF or phase offset does, or if I am supposed to change anything there.

Rotation limit ratio, this I thought had to do with field weakening.. maybe. Haven't tried changing anything yet.
It seems to be used for rpm limit in high. Low and mid has an rpm limit.

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I havnt messed with the ki/kp settings, those seems to be default for "high power motor" or something like that in the manual.
I changed AN from 0 to 16, that seemed to be default for IPM according to the manual. Unclear what it does..
LM seems to have something to do with current build up, 22 is default. Havent tried changing it. I suppose it is influenced by the ki/kp values.
The other four is interesting, MOE ? I dont think I saw that on the computer. Same thing with weak response and release throttle.
I tried changing release throttle (0-7) not sure if there was a difference.

Throttle rate, it was 128 first. I tested it and didnt like it. I always got wheel spin and no wheelies. I raised it up, and it got a lot better :) I didnt feel like there was a throttle delay, but it still resulted in that I gave to much throttle before I changed. Now it feels very responsive :D I think 224 is max, so I guess I might as well change to that.

ECO coeff, I thought at first that it was some throttle tamer and set it to 0 or 1 or whatever. But it was the other way around, it got sluggish then. So back to 8 (max). Havent tried the other settings.

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A few more settings, Follow is interesting.
It seems I can only get regen on a button or throttle release.
The throttle release seems buggy, sometimes I get a delay when I get back on throttle after throttle release.
So that seems pretty much unusable as it is, and that is something I really want :(
I guess the best way is to use a domino throttle and use the switch for brake regen, that seems to work better. Even if there seems to be a little delay before it kicks in sometimes.

PC 13 is boost I think, seems pretty much useless. It can do the same thing as the brake, and some sort of cruise control.
There is also a wire for cruise, I wonder what that is good for then :?

I dont think I can do anything with the calibration, I dont think I have tried though..

dominik h   100 W

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by dominik h » Jul 12 2022 3:15pm

j bjork wrote:
Jul 12 2022 1:36pm
A few more settings, Follow is interesting.
It seems I can only get regen on a button or throttle release.
The throttle release seems buggy, sometimes I get a delay when I get back on throttle after throttle release.
So that seems pretty much unusable as it is, and that is something I really want :(
I guess the best way is to use a domino throttle and use the switch for brake regen, that seems to work better. Even if there seems to be a little delay before it kicks in sometimes.
I also noticed the delay in the throttle while testing my Fardriver. As I always wanted a switch for regen , this will be no problem for me.
The unfinished or wrong manual is typical for chineese products and does not realy help while setting up rhe Controller.

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Eastwood   10 kW

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by Eastwood » Jul 12 2022 6:55pm

Interesting feedback guys, y’all got me questioning whether I’m going to buy a far driver now lol
:bolt: Suzuki Rmz 250 EV Restomod :bolt:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=116038&p=1716022#top

:bolt: Enduro Frame build :bolt:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=113133

j bjork   1 MW

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jul 13 2022 3:55am

It is too early for me to say much really, it is just my first impressions from an hour of testing or so.
Not very hard testing either, as I have a new tire on that I dont want to destroy.
I was also in shorts, t-shirt and clogs :?

I mostly posted hoping that others would chime in with what they found the settings to do, or a solution to the regen problem :wink:
But it seems very easy to get going, a few basic settings and a self learn and you got a working setup it seems.

After that it seems harder to find out what the rest does. But it is a few settings, so you would probably get far with trial and error.
I do worry that there are too few settings, it might be limited what you can do if there is something you are not happy with.
The program seems decent and the settings relevant so far, not like the newer votols for example.

I would like to see something between sevcon and this, easy like this to set up but sevcons possibilities for personification if needed.
The 3 speed switch here is different top speed (rpm), phase amp and battery amp. On sevcon it could be a totally different experience with different throttle behavior, different rpm/sec rise, different amp/sec rise, and the same thing on lowering, different engine braking on throttle release, different variable regen and so on.

Anyway, it seems to control throttle-motor good, but maybe not the regen part that good.
It seems like you can have regen on throttle release OR on on a separate switch, not both.
I was expecting to be able to have a weaker regen on throttle release, than a stronger on a separate button. But that dosent seem to happen.

It seems like I cant adjust any calibrations, I can understand the amp and voltage calibrations and such. But I would like to be able to adjust my motor temp.

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jul 14 2022 4:53am

It was a good thing that I did tape most of the plug:

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The filler at the corners did stick to the mold even with release film.
I was able to dig it out and get a more or less decent surface.
I was in a hurry to make the cover, so I didnt wait as long as I should between and after waxing the mold.
But I used release film again, and it went fine:

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As you can see the surface isnt too inspiring after taped plug and 2x release film.

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But after sanding it with 1000 grit and a little rubbing to a relatively flat black I think it looks fine :)

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tylerwatts   100 W

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by tylerwatts » Jul 14 2022 6:36am

j bjork wrote:It was a good thing that I did tape most of the plug:

Image

The filler at the corners did stick to the mold even with release film.
I was able to dig it out and get a more or less decent surface.
I was in a hurry to make the cover, so I didnt wait as long as I should between and after waxing the mold.
But I used release film again, and it went fine:

Image

As you can see the surface isnt too inspiring after taped plug and 2x release film.

Image

But after sanding it with 1000 grit and a little rubbing to a relatively flat black I think it looks fine :)
I personally think it looks fine. The Matt sheen is better and frankly people should only be looking at it covered in dirt! But the cover is a really smart finish in my opinion. Is the edges sealed somehow to limit dirt and water ingress? Perhaps a simple edge trim or small window seal type is ideal, quick removal but resistant to dirt and water soaking in. Don't pressure wash it if course but if anybody took a pressure washer near my electric bike I've put it to their eyeballs...

cheers
Tyler


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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jul 14 2022 6:37am

I was out on a testdrive it the woods, it dosnt feel good :(

I am at 224 in throttle rate and sport throttle now, but it still feels sluggish.
It is like there is a 0,5sec delay if I hit the throttle, and on release..
It is touchy at very little throttle, it will probably be difficult at slippery slopes.
But on a fast throttle blip the response just isnt there.

If I hit the throttle fast I want instant wheelspin, and instant stop on release.

I tried changing "weak response" (I suppose that has to do with field weakening, but you never now?) and "release throttle" but no obvious change.
I suppose I should look at what can be done with the logger and kp/ki

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jul 14 2022 6:49am

tylerwatts wrote:
Jul 14 2022 6:36am
Is the edges sealed somehow to limit dirt and water ingress? Perhaps a simple edge trim or small window seal type is ideal, quick removal but resistant to dirt and water soaking in. Don't pressure wash it if course but if anybody took a pressure washer near my electric bike I've put it to their eyeballs...

cheers
Tyler
It is not really sealed, just edges to steer water and dirt away from the controller.
I cant seal it in every direction anyway.
The point with the cover is to limit how much dirt gets to the controller and battery etc. from the rear wheel, also keep fingers from the high voltage and high pressure water from hitting the controller when washing.

I have pressure washed the ktm after every ride, I plan to do the same with this one :wink:

speedy1984   100 W

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by speedy1984 » Jul 14 2022 9:53am

j bjork wrote:
Jul 14 2022 6:37am
I was out on a testdrive it the woods, it dosnt feel good :(

I am at 224 in throttle rate and sport throttle now, but it still feels sluggish.
It is like there is a 0,5sec delay if I hit the throttle, and on release..
It is touchy at very little throttle, it will probably be difficult at slippery slopes.
But on a fast throttle blip the response just isnt there.

If I hit the throttle fast I want instant wheelspin, and instant stop on release.

I tried changing "weak response" (I suppose that has to do with field weakening, but you never now?) and "release throttle" but no obvious change.
I suppose I should look at what can be done with the logger and kp/ki
Did you notice any of this on the paddock stand?I ask as i run the 96v850 version of this controller and mine feels fine on the stand and not under any load as such.Bike is not ready to be ridden just yet so wonder if it has to be under load before you can feel these responses.

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jul 14 2022 10:48am

I didnt even notice on the road.
It is on the trail when I want very precise throttle control, like driving and suddenly hitting the throttle to lift the front on the spot while moving. Not 1-2m ahead of where I am when I hit the throttle, or not at all if the throttle blip is fast enough.

speedy1984   100 W

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by speedy1984 » Jul 14 2022 10:56am

Really right ok well hopefully mine dont act the same as mine is purely for enduro woods ect

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jul 15 2022 4:31am

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Where I am now, I tried raising up "rotation limit ratio" I think it made it a little more responsive.
I havnt bothered with the higher rpm´s as I havnt ridden very fast.

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I tested messing with the ki/kp, it was easier than I expected. They change in pairs, so there dosent seem to be any figuring out what goes with what. No overcurrent faults either, but I havnt figured out the logger, so I dont know what happens with the currents..
It seems lower makes it more responsive :?

I havnt messed with speed ki/kp, does anyone know what it does?
I havnt played around with AN more than changed it to 16 in the beginning.
I tested LM a little, that seems more sensitive. I lowered a little first,(18 I think) and the throttle felt more twitchy at low throttle.
Tried raising (33) and the power got pulsing and I got a cutout.
Still I havent tried MOE or weak character.

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I have tried weak response and release throttle, but I havnt noticed and difference.
I want something to happen with the release throttle setting..

So where I am now, after all this it seems like the throttle response is pretty good. But I think it is too twitchy at small throttle, I want to be able to crawl carefully at a little throttle and just explode at a fast twitch.

I havnt been able to get the regen how I want it, if I use it on throttle release the throttle often dont respond if I hit it during regen. The regen with a button seems to not always respond very fast (might be my button) and is a bit soft.

I guess I need to take it to a proper track and try riding it normal, now I have just been on and off the throttle all the time and trying to judge how it feels. Everything just feels wrong after a while.

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by dougf » Jul 15 2022 6:30am

Interestingly you seem to have more settings then me. Ive been pretty happy with my settings so far. It will wheel spin when applying throttle on the road. If your interested I have;

StartKI:2
MidKI:2
MaxKI:4
SpeedKI:7
SpeedKP:20(not adjustable on my app)
MidKP:20(Not adjustable on my app)
MaxKP:40(Not adjustable on my app)
SpeedKP:8
LM:22
AN:16
MOE: ON
WeakResponce and release throttle:0
Weak charactor: Fast

Throttle Acc step:128
Throttle:Sport

I set my initial Ratio % a little bit down to tame the throttle a bit. I also have my max current set to 400A and max Phase to 1300.

I cant run any lower then AN:16 or I get MOE cut outs. The throttle release Regeneration is useless, I havent got it to work at all. It starts regen fine but is hit and miss if you get throttle back when you twist the grip. I have brake wired to a switch on the handlebars and from memory (couple of weeks since I rode my bike) that works.

Sounds like your getting there though. Ive been too busy to do anything..

Doug

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jul 15 2022 9:26am

Thanks :)

When I change KI, Kp also changes with it. So with KI 2 Kp becomes 20, KI 3, Kp becomes 30 and so on.
Have you tested a lot before you settled on these settings?

Initial ratio %, do you mean the 500rpm setting in "rotation limit ratio"?

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by dougf » Jul 15 2022 7:17pm

j bjork wrote:
Jul 15 2022 9:26am
Thanks :)

When I change KI, Kp also changes with it. So with KI 2 Kp becomes 20, KI 3, Kp becomes 30 and so on.
Have you tested a lot before you settled on these settings?

Initial ratio %, do you mean the 500rpm setting in "rotation limit ratio"?
Nah I really havent tested much at all. I had lots of cutouts and MOE errors initially. Most of that was solved by turning AN up to 16 and setting LM to 22. If I drop LM to 16 I get cutouts. The PID values are straight out of the manual. I plan on putting the bike back on the dyno but I probably need to have a proper think about how Im going to know if im making it better or worse. Output power wont really tell me if Im having oscillations but battery current might If I put my scope across a shunt....

Yes I mean the 500rpm setting. I ramped it right up to 100 at the drags to try and improve my 60ft time (which it didnt). I had mine at 70% initially and it felt pretty good and still pulled 1.9s 60ft times.

Doug

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jul 18 2022 11:43am

I had another welded contactor incident, so I decided something had to be done immediately.
I bought one of these timer build kits:

Image

I filled the back completely with silicone, but just that plastic paint on the front of it for now.

Image

A pretty well shielded position at least. Now I have about 2,5 seconds pre charge, I dont think welded contactors should be a problem now as long as everything works..
My bike that should have everything built in the batteries and waterproof connectors etc. is not really there anymore with dc dc, pre charge resistor and pre charge timer out in the open :(

Anyway, that dosent matter as long as the bike isnt ridden :?

I have been out again trying to tune the throttle behavior, I havent been very successful..
It is a disaster, the throttle behaves like a rubber band. The softer you set it, the worse the backlash.

The only almost rideable setting I have found is sport, throttle rate 224, ECO Coeff 8. (the most aggressive setting possible)
Then the throttle is super twitchy, you cant really walk with the bike and just hold a little throttle to not have to push.
It will move from off to a little wheel spin on gravel. But when up to some speed it is relatively responsive with not too bad backlash. (Meaning not still pulling very much after throttle release)

The ECO Coeff seems totally useless, anything other than 8 is totally powerless. At least when you are in sport mode (I didnt try in other modes)

I tried ECO throttle also, it is very smooth from a stand still. But then if you twist the throttle a bit more you will have crazy rubberband effect, a big wheelie that keeps rising after throttle release :shock:

I tried messing with the "Release throttle" setting again, still I am not sure if it does anything. 7 for sure was not better than 0..
I also tried the speed Ki/Kp settings, not sure if there was any difference.

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tylerwatts   100 W

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by tylerwatts » Jul 19 2022 5:10am

Sorry to read.of your troubles jbjork. Hope you can find support and get to worked out.

cheers
Tyler


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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jul 19 2022 6:06am

According to Doi in the fardriver thread it is a known firmware issue. I contacted siaecosys and described the problem yesterday to see if they have a solution, and I actually got a reply today. But they only asked about order nr and store name "Then we could clearly about the cargo situation and provide correct service"

I dont know if I read too much in that answer if I think it sounds like they will want me to send it back? :?
What would cargo have to do with anything otherwise?

Anyway, in the mean time I have been taking some measurements on the throttle signal.
It is a cheap chinese hall throttle, but I have used the same model on two bikes before with success.
What the controller see is as follows, fist I took 4 positions:
0=0,82v, 1=1,82v, 2=2,88v, 3=4,18 (3=full throttle)

Then I did it again, but with 5 positions:
0=0,82v, 1/4=1,56v, 1/2=2,34v, 3/4=3,1v, full=4,01v

Note that full throttle has lost almost 0,2v between the tests but 0 throttle is unchanged.
I tested several times to verify on the second measurement, and it stayed the same.

Image

This is how I did my markings..

Tested on the scope:

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Image

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The green is the 5v supply, the yellow the throttle output.
I think the signal looks decent?
As you can see the supply looses some voltage, I dont know if that is significant.
These measurements are with the motor turned off.

Im thinking an arduino might be able to fix the problem?
If it is programmed to send a brake signal when the throttle is less than 1v or so, to get rid of the delay after throttle release.
Then lower the output in the first 1/4 or maybe a little longer to get a controllable low power region, then ramp up over 1/2 throttle or so.

A problem will be to be able to program though, I tried once a bunch of years ago with limited success :roll:
But it seems like there are new, maybe easier ways now..

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by dougf » Jul 19 2022 6:01pm

Are they talking the regen throttle release issue or the throttle feel issue? If they want you to send it back its probably a hardware issue, not a settings issue :( .

I can write you some arduino code, you just want an output to turn on at a programmable throttle position? A bit harder to flatten out the voltage at the bottom. Might be able to have the arduino hold the signal lower during first portion of throttle but the signal would step when it turned off.

Doug

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by hugok » Jul 20 2022 5:50am

If you want regen when throttle is low you could try add a comparator with voltage divider preferably a tuning potentiometer and set preferred voltage level when regen should turn on or off, or use arduino but it feels a bit overkill if you´re not going to use other features.

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by TysonScott » Jul 20 2022 1:21pm

j bjork wrote:
Jul 18 2022 11:43am
I had another welded contactor incident, so I decided something had to be done immediately.
I bought one of these timer build kits:

Image

I filled the back completely with silicone, but just that plastic paint on the front of it for now.

what is that timer build kit? also what contactor are you using?

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jul 21 2022 4:31am

dougf wrote:
Jul 19 2022 6:01pm
Are they talking the regen throttle release issue or the throttle feel issue? If they want you to send it back its probably a hardware issue, not a settings issue :( .

I can write you some arduino code, you just want an output to turn on at a programmable throttle position? A bit harder to flatten out the voltage at the bottom. Might be able to have the arduino hold the signal lower during first portion of throttle but the signal would step when it turned off.

Doug
The focus is on the delay after throttle release, I see that as the biggest problem and not an ok behavior.

If that is resolved I might be able to have another throttle setting that is less aggressive in the beginning of the twist, but I doubt I will find a setting with the best of two worlds. But I see that more as I want a setting that the controller doesn't have.

The throttle release regen, where the throttle often gets unresponsive after activation:
I will see where the other problem leads, I will sure ask for a solution if the other problem gets solved.

According to Dui in the fardriver thread the dalay after throttle release is a firmware issue, and he flashed with another that solved that (but created another) problem.

I got handed over to another support handler that think it is a problem in the motor settings, and want me to do a new self learn where I should make sure it is no load.
So I will take off the primary chain and do it again, last time I just had the wheel in the air.

Arduino or otherwise:
I guess I will lay low with this for now, and see what happens.

But my plan was 1 input, the throttle.
2 outputs, brake under a fixed input value about 1v.
Throttle output where input 1v is output 1v, but input 1,5v is maybe 1,2v output, 2v in maybe 1,5 out. But at 3,5v they are both equal again.
A problem might be that arduino only seems to have pwm outputs, maybe it works if they are fast enough?

Im not sure what you mean it would step when it turn off?
The plan is that the arduino should control the output all the time, I suppose it would get its power from the 12 converter.
It could be a problem possibly that the output is wrong before the 12v is on and after it is off.
hugok wrote:
Jul 20 2022 5:50am
If you want regen when throttle is low you could try add a comparator with voltage divider preferably a tuning potentiometer and set preferred voltage level when regen should turn on or off, or use arduino but it feels a bit overkill if you´re not going to use other features.


Interesting, do you have more info?
I think I have read something about modifying throttle output with a few simple components somewhere before :?

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Re: Yamaha YZ250F

Post by j bjork » Jul 21 2022 4:39am

TysonScott wrote:
Jul 20 2022 1:21pm

what is that timer build kit? also what contactor are you using?
The timer is: Velleman MK188 and the contators are VW passat GTE.

It probably works fine, but it is just a "dumb" timer. It has no check that the pre charge is finished or anything, and is probably more advanced than necessary for the simple thing it is doing in the circuit.

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