Really Need Some Advice - Wiring Diagram

Csecrist3

10 mW
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
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So I have been working on this for a little while. I have my wiring diagram of my conversion I am getting ready to start. I am using a '96 Kawasaki zx600 rolling frame as the chassis and a lot of bits from an electric car I was given. Most of my components are in the wiring diagram as far as what components I am using.

I took my controllers wiring diagram and combined it with my BMS diagram they give in the manual.

Some of the questions I have:
Is this looking correct and would it work?
What do I need to change or include if I forgotten anything?
What size wire should I need for the different components?
What connectors should I get and where should I put them?

I am getting ready to start making my battery bank of LiFePo4 a123 26650. I am making a 32S 15P system.

https://www.zeva.com.au/Products/datasheets/EVMS3_Manual.pdf
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/Manuals/1231.pdf
 

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Csecrist3 said:
Is this looking correct and would it work?

You show two different keyswitches, one labelled as a relay, one just as a keyswitch. Are they mechanically connected? If so, how do the things they control operate from it? Or is it only just as the wiring diagram shows?

It looks as if the keyswitch and the pedal (throttle) footswitch are wired in series to the contactor relay coil. If this is the case, then everytime you lift your foot off the switch (or let go of a twist throttle with such a switch in it), it will shut off the whole system. Is that the intent? Or do you want the system to be on and ready any time the keyswitch is "on", and just to disable the controller's throttle input whenever the throttle is not engaged?

Since this is a brushed motor system, it's probably safer to do the way you have, which cuts all power to the motor system via teh contactor when not using the throttle, because these types of controllers, when they "blow up" usually do it in a way that leaves the motor stuck on full power.



The DC-DC appears to always be powered on. That means all the stuff powered from it will also always be on (lights, etc). Is that intended?


The DC-DC is marked as 96v. Is that it's upper limit, or it's nominal voltage input? If the former, you won't be able to fully charge the battery pack without damaging it.



What do I need to change or include if I forgotten anything?
What is the "relay" at the charger? What does it connect to, and what is it activated by?

Some wires go to devices but do not list pin or contact numbers or names at that device, so we don't know for sure if they're connected right or not.

For your own reference later (because when troubleshooting later, nobody ever remembers as much as they think they will when building it ;) ), I highly recommend that you get as specific as possible with each and every wire and connection, and show the function name of each wire along the wire, and then also show the pin number and signal name at the device itself, that the device uses. So if you have for instance a battery negative wire, that you call B-, but your charger calls Ground, actually mark it as B- everwhere but at the charger *also* mark it ground. I recommend marking the device-specific names inside the outline of the device.

You can also start using specific wire colors as the actual line colors, whcih will help you do the actual wiring as well as troubleshoot stuff later.

(trust me on this as someone that rarely does this, and always regrets it later, because as we know nothing ever goes wrong with wiring. ;) :oops: ).

I also recommend drawing up a complete lighting wiring diagram the same way, which can be separate except where it requires interconnection to the power source or brake switches, etc., within the traction wiring diagram. If using the existing wiring harness, I still recommend completely tracing it out *as it is actually wired on the bike*, and drawing it up including the wiring colors, for later ease of troubleshooting.

What size wire should I need for the different components?
What current flows do you expect in each wire pair? (how many peak amps, and how many continuous) How long, approximately, are the wiring runs for each going to be? To determine good wiring sizes without going overkill (excess cost, size, weight) you'll need to know those things at least to a good first approximation.



What connectors should I get and where should I put them?
First, same question as above. Are these connections you wish to be able to easily disconnect? Will they be housed in a weatherproof area, or do you need weatherproof connectors?
 
I really appreciate the honest feedback. I am still a beginner when it comes to conversions as it is my first. I do have a little advantage with fully thinking out as much as possible along with getting good feedback from everyone and make the decision based on that.

As far as the key switch item as that seems to be the big ticket item on my diagram as I have it in multiple places. The main portion on the right hand side was from the controller's manual. They had the key relay in series with the contactor per their requirements.

What would your thoughts be on the key and how should I go about changing the diagram to reflect the ease of installation? Could you possibly draw on the diagram as it's a bit easier to see a visual!

As I narrow down the precise wires of what goes where, I will then lay out them according to the bikes contours and where they will lay when the time comes. I've done quite a lot of wiring on motorcycles and trouble shooting issues within the system and you are right with it being a lot easier to have it precisely located where it needs to be on the bike. Not the most fun job to do the cad/manual work to lay it out properly, but helps a lot plus if I ever sell it, I can have something to go with the new owner.

I added a photo showing the controller's manual specs as far as the amp draw. It's showing a 500 amp draw max if I am reading that correctly. I also attached the manual itself on my first post, page C-2 in appendix C (Very Last page of the document).

This would entail the wring size and connector requirements for what I am needing. What would you recommend for this set up if this portion is correct?
 

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  • Controller Specs_Amp Draw.JPG
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Csecrist3 said:
As far as the key switch item as that seems to be the big ticket item on my diagram as I have it in multiple places. The main portion on the right hand side was from the controller's manual. They had the key relay in series with the contactor per their requirements.

What would your thoughts be on the key and how should I go about changing the diagram to reflect the ease of installation? Could you possibly draw on the diagram as it's a bit easier to see a visual!
Well, really I was trying to figure out what you actually intend to do. Do you want two separate switches? Or do you want a single keyswitch that will turn a relay (or set of them) on that controls all the other functions? Some keyswitches have mulitple positions with independent contact sets that let you turn on some things but not others, etc.

So before deciding the wiring, you would decide the functionality you want. Once you know how you want it to work, then I can help you draw that out.

This question might seem unrelated, but do you know any programming, like BASIC? Or at least flowcharting a process? I ask because an easy way to determine functionality and then convert it to hardware is to either make a flowchart or to write it out as "if-then" / etc type statements. An example of this "pseudocoding" is here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=110497&p=1618943#p1619126
in a thread where I'm actually preparing to make code *and* hardware, but first I have to make sure I define exactly what I want to happen and under what conditions. Yours isn't likely to be that complex, but you may want some things to happen first, or alone, etc.

For instance:
If KEYSWITCH = RUN position, then CONTACTOR = CLOSED and KEYSWITCH RELAY = CLOSED
but that can be broken down further as you may need more than one step to happen, where the KS first turns on the KS relay that engages a precharge of the controller before turning on the contactor, and/or also provides power to the DC-DC t power lights (and may even have to first provide power to the DC-DC to even be able to turn on any relays).

Doesnt' have to be written out this wya, but myself i find it helpful to figure it out using this kind of method, cuz for me it's easier to type out an ordered list and reorder and extend it than it is to draw and redraw diagrams and keep my eyes on which wire went where. :oops:


As I narrow down the precise wires of what goes where, I will then lay out them according to the bikes contours and where they will lay when the time comes. I've done quite a lot of wiring on motorcycles and trouble shooting issues within the system and you are right with it being a lot easier to have it precisely located where it needs to be on the bike. Not the most fun job to do the cad/manual work to lay it out properly, but helps a lot plus if I ever sell it, I can have something to go with the new owner.
With the wiring diagram, it doesn't even have to show where it physically goes on the bike (though this is helpful in actual troubleshooting), but it should definitely show which wires electircally connect to which pins on which things.

I added a photo showing the controller's manual specs as far as the amp draw. It's showing a 500 amp draw max if I am reading that correctly. I also attached the manual itself on my first post, page C-2 in appendix C (Very Last page of the document).

This would entail the wring size and connector requirements for what I am needing. What would you recommend for this set up if this portion is correct?
I'll have to come back for that part; I can feel msyelf dozing off (just got home from work and fed the dogs and now myself).
 
amberwolf,

I really like the idea of breaking down the wiring diagram to a code based setup in a sense or a flow chart. I may mess around with the flow chart idea first and get my ideas out and go from there. I have done a little bit of basic coding in a class I had for my degree, but that is the extent of my knowledge.

My intentions for the key switch would be to have 1 key and 1 kill switch basically. Just like a normal motorcycle, I would like the key switch probably to precharge the resistor and get things "going" and the kill switch would be the on and off for the motor in sense. I like this option in case anything happens, the kill switch is right by my hand on the twist throttle.

What ideas would you have for this setup and how should I configure the relays? Any specific relays I need in order to handle the amount of power coming and going through it or?
 
Csecrist3 said:
My intentions for the key switch would be to have 1 key and 1 kill switch basically. Just like a normal motorcycle, I would like the key switch probably to precharge the resistor and get things "going" and the kill switch would be the on and off for the motor in sense. I like this option in case anything happens, the kill switch is right by my hand on the twist throttle.

What ideas would you have for this setup and how should I configure the relays? Any specific relays I need in order to handle the amount of power coming and going through it or?
Since you have two switches, and one of them is for emergency shutdown, then they can be in series, so that the killswitch simply cuts out everything regardless of keyswitch state. So the killswitch would come "first" in the line of power into the keyswitch, at the common pin, so that no matter what else is going on, opening hte killswitch opens all power to what the keyswitch controls.

A potential problem that arises in that case is the lights and everything go out, if the keyswitch also controls those.

What you want the keyswitch to do, exactly, will determine how it's wired and what kind to get.

So...let's say the keyswitch is wired so that it has three positions, one of which is momentary springloaded Start (like a car "starter" position). Let's say Start is to the left, Off is in the middle, and RUn is on the right.

You turn it to "start", hold it for a few seconds (however long you calculated the PC resistor to do this in), and it precharges in this position. It's momentary so you can't accidentally leave it in that position and burn up the precharge resistor trying to run the motor thru it. ;)

Then you turn it right past off (whcih is simply not connected to anything) to the "run" position, where it then turns on the relay that controls everything by connecting battery power to the input of the DC-DC, which then powers up and provides "12v" to the relay coil (and anything else that is powered by 12v, like your lights).

If you only have one function for the keyswitch (besides precharge) then you can probably just directly power the contactor coil from the DC-DC output, skipping any secondary relays.

The killswitch could be in the common wire to the keyswitch from the battery, so that if the killswitch is off, no power can ever go anywhere, killing the whole system.

If you were to use it for "accessory" positions, then you could use relays to turn on lights or other things in that position, without turning on the contactor coil, so it doesnt' allow the motor to run but it does let you use other stuff.

For that setup, the killswitch could be in just the wire from the "run" position of the keyswitch, so that it only stops you from using the run position, but you could still turn the siwtch back to "accessories" or whatever to run lights and so on.


You can also wire power out of the "run" position to allow the lights to be kept on while the killswitch still cuts power to the contactor coil, preventing motor usage. Doing this gives you an "effective" accessory position, by making sure the killswitch is off, but leaving the key in "run" position, and doesn't require a key that actually has a separate accessory position.

There are a lot of ways to wire it...but you have to decide how you want the system to operate before you can choose the wiring. :)
 
amberwolf,

You have a lot of great insight and didn't realize the different combinations one could have for a simple key switch!

What I would like to do is have 2 positions for the key switch, on and off only. When it is on, the lights and accessories would be turned on, precharge would start to happen. Then I would like the kill switch to turn the precharge off and have power running to the motor as it's good to go. That way I can have the accessories on, but no power to the motor. In doing this setup, I would then have to still have the key switch in series with the kill switch, but have the kill switch after the key switch to allow this to happen. Would I need relays to consider this and could you map out a small drawing of what it may look like by chance? If I'm not mistaken, a pin from the contactor would be triggered by the kill switch is this correct?
 
Csecrist3 said:
You have a lot of great insight and didn't realize the different combinations one could have for a simple key switch!
There's more than what I listed...but you're unlikely to use any of those. :)


What I would like to do is have 2 positions for the key switch, on and off only. When it is on, the lights and accessories would be turned on, precharge would start to happen. Then I would like the kill switch to turn the precharge off and have power running to the motor as it's good to go. That way I can have the accessories on, but no power to the motor. In doing this setup, I would then have to still have the key switch in series with the kill switch, but have the kill switch after the key switch to allow this to happen. Would I need relays to consider this and could you map out a small drawing of what it may look like by chance? If I'm not mistaken, a pin from the contactor would be triggered by the kill switch is this correct?

I can make a (really bad :oops:) drawing later, but first want to work out how you need it to work:

So IIUC, the very basic logic you want is:

If KYSW = ON and KYSW = OFF, then Precharge = ON and DC-DC = ON and CONTACTOR = OFF.
If KLSW and KYSW = ON, then Precharge = OFF and DC-DC = ON and CONTACTOR = ON.

Presuming the kill switch is just a simple on/off switch, and some other assumptions, here's some thoughts.

If you don't have an absolute requirement to actually turn off Precharge (because you don't really need to, exactly, though there may be good reasons to do it in some cases), then it simplifies things.

Keyswitch should probably only control a relay, and not directly control any "power", so that it can be a minimal current, which will save wear and tear on it's contacts (and might be a cheaper switch). They make "automotive" style 48v (etc) relays, that just plug into a socket, so that if it ever fails you can just pop it out and replace it. Like these:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=288864
or other similar types. If you don't want to use a relay, it will still basically work the same way, except the stuff that would connect to the relay output would instead connect to the switch.

Assuming a relay is used, we'll give some names to things to save typing. ;) I dont' define any negative connections, as those are assumed to all be connected together all the time.

KYSW = keyswitch
KLSW = killswitch
CT = contactor main pins
CTC = contactor coil pins
KYSWRNO = the Normally Open (open when relay is off) contacts of the keyswitch relay
KYSWRCOM= the common pin of the keyswitch relay
KYSWRC = keyswitch relay coil pins
B+ = battery positive (or rather, the "bike side" of whatever fuse or circuit breaker you have on the battery positive).
CONT+ = controller battery positive terminal
12V+ = DC-DC 12V positive output. (or the bike side of a fuse)
12VBAT+ = DC-DC battery input

KYSW connects on one side to B+, and the other to one of the KYSWRC pins, so when it is on, it turns on the relay.

12VBAT+ connects to KYSWRNO, so it gets powered and DC-DC turns on when key is turned on. Anything powered by 12v is now turned on unless it has it's own switch.

KYSWRCOM connects to B+.

Precharge resistor is wired from KYSWRNO to the controller side of CT. So whenever contactor is not active, but KYSW is on, precharge provides it's small current to the controller, allowing precharge of the capacitors in it (to prevent damage to contactor contacts). Whenever contactor *is* active, it shorts across precharge resistor, effectively cutting it out of the circuit.

KLSW connects on one side to 12V+ and the other to one side of CTC. (so when it is active, and 12v is available, it turns on the contactor, which then provides power to the controller/motor).

I think that is all the stuff, but you'll have to go over it and tell me if i missed something (brain sez itz naptime).
 
amberwolf,

Yes those are the conditions and logic behind what I am wanting to do. I do not want the precharge resistor to be charged the whole time and would like the ability to keep that off.

The wording of the wiring is a bit confusing and would greatly like the rough drawing whenever you can!

The B+, is this the HV + coming from the traction pack?
 
Csecrist3 said:
I do not want the precharge resistor to be charged the whole time and would like the ability to keep that off.
OK. Then AFAICS you'll need at least one more relay and more complicated wiring for that, since engaging kill switch will have to disengage the precharge, after the keyswitch has turned the precharge on.

Or a timer to automatically disconnect it would have to be made (adding more complexity and wiring). If you have a timer then you'd need to engage the killswitch within some certain amount of time after the timer shuts off, or you would have to re-precharge as the capacitors will drain over time if not connected to the battery. (how long depends on the controller's internals, mostly).


The B+, is this the HV + coming from the traction pack?
Unless you have another battery, then it must be from the traction pack. ;)
 
amberwolf said:
Csecrist3 said:
I do not want the precharge resistor to be charged the whole time and would like the ability to keep that off.
OK. Then AFAICS you'll need at least one more relay and more complicated wiring for that, since engaging kill switch will have to disengage the precharge, after the keyswitch has turned the precharge on.

Or a timer to automatically disconnect it would have to be made (adding more complexity and wiring). If you have a timer then you'd need to engage the killswitch within some certain amount of time after the timer shuts off, or you would have to re-precharge as the capacitors will drain over time if not connected to the battery. (how long depends on the controller's internals, mostly).


The B+, is this the HV + coming from the traction pack?
Unless you have another battery, then it must be from the traction pack. ;)

Yes the battery would make sense! ha What drawing do you have of this complicated set up for the key switch? Could we almost have 3 key switches turning on and off the individual processes?

1 Keyswitch for the pre charge only, 1 Key switch for the contactor to close for the main motor and traction pack and the kill switch being for the lights and accessories? And when the pre charge has been on long enough, I can simply turn that key switch to off?
 
Csecrist3 said:
What drawing do you have of this complicated set up for the key switch? Could we almost have 3 key switches turning on and off the individual processes?

1 Keyswitch for the pre charge only, 1 Key switch for the contactor to close for the main motor and traction pack and the kill switch being for the lights and accessories? And when the pre charge has been on long enough, I can simply turn that key switch to off?

It's going to take some time to make a drawing, so you'll have to be patient on that. :) I don't have much "awake" time that I'm really functional that I'm not doing one of the many other things I have to get done (or working at the dayjob that is the main reason for not much awake / functional time)...so it takes me sometimes a long time to do things like this that have to be "perfect" (if the connections are drawn wrong, bad things can happen if wired from it that way :oops: :flame: )

It is not really less complicated to wire up multiple switches than to wire relays controlled by the existing ones, but it is definitely more complicated for you to use.
 
Had some much needed time to revise the wiring diagram. This is the more crucial of the 2 diagrams as I am still working on the accessories (lights, blinkers, stop switches, etc.)

What is everyone's thoughts on the matter?

A few concerns I had and couldn't find the answer to:
- The charge sense (4) and the charge enable(11), can these be activated by the magnetic reed switch I have for the charging latch hinge? Basically when the latch opens, both of these would see a signal and be able to charge correctly or would I have to have a relay for the charge enable? The ZEVA BMS Manual states:
Connect to the +12 terminal of a relay which can enable your charger (usually turning the AC supply on, or charge enable input pins supported by some chargers). The other side of the relay should be connected to ground/chassis.
Would I need a 110V/220V relay that sends out a 12V signal for this and if so, where can I find one?

- Would the key switch and kill switch configuration work? In this set up, this is keeping the precharge resistor on the whole time, would I have to have a different relay, maybe a 2 way relay some how to turn the precharge off or? My thought in this was to have the estop button shut everything off, turn a key to enable the head lights, maybe tail lights along with the precharge resistor and then the kill switch would turn on the main contactor giving full power to the motor and the rest of the accessories, blinkers, horn. Would this work?

-The ZEVA BMS has temp sensors with 2 connectors, where would the second connector go? Does it simply go to ground? The manual doesn't have any information on this. Could I put more sensors on even the the main control board for the BMS only has 2 MPO (Multi purpose outputs)? I wouldn't mind having another temp sensor in the controller and motor area to monitor those temps. Applying those temp sensors to the respected components, can I use simple tape to adhere to the surfaces I am wanting? Will the heat make the glue of the tape come off?

-What size of fuses will I need for my accessories? Anything major should be over 10-15A?
 

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I have uploaded the changes that were recommended. I do believe my key switch and kill switch are wrong and would like some help for this configuration:

I am wanting to turn on the EVMS which has the internal precharge resistor needed, but not turn on the main contactor. I would like the kill switch on the handle bar to be able to turn the HV main contactor on in case I need to kill the motor power.

As far as the temp sensors, what is the second lead for the temp sensors? Does it loop back into itself with the connector from ZEVA or?
 

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So I have been doing some work on my wiring diagram, mainly for my low voltage setup coming off of the DC-DC converter. I basically dumbed a cbr 929 wiring diagram to the basics for the lights, turn signals and other bits.

What do you guys think of LV setup? Any concerning issues with it?

Also, on my HV, I believe I fixed the current sensor issue, but correct me if I am wrong. One question I had is, would my charger be able to handle a J1772 commercial plug the way I have it wired up? I have a Delta QuiQ 1000 Charger for 96V. I am having one of our locals on here add the algorithms I needing. Someone mentioned on a group I am about having this ? Affordable Electric Vehicle Batteries & Components from Electric Car Parts Company

Thoughts?
 

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  • Wiring Diagram_LV.pdf
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