Oatnet goes Vectrix!

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oatnet
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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by oatnet » Sep 04, 2011 8:36 pm

Hey, if you missed the last post, with (10) pictures showing the battery being removed from the bike, and the new headway cells being test-fit, go back to the last page!
A few more pics for good measure:
a_IMG_0308.JPG
This is the 26-cell PSI battery I built, on cells I got from the cycle-9 clearance. I paid $170 for the cells, and I got a whole mess of the building blocks for next to nothing. This pack is what now powers my VW bus conversion as it makes its lonely sojurn from one side to the other for street cleaning. I removed all the other cells to build the battery for the Vectrix, and the harnesses too.
a_IMG_0308.JPG (76.21 KiB) Viewed 5475 times
b_IMG_6656.jpg
Hauling with the Vectrix - two rare Alex DX-32 rims with black sidewalls in an oversized box.
b_IMG_6656.jpg (78.7 KiB) Viewed 5475 times
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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by heathyoung » Sep 05, 2011 12:23 am

Nice...

I'm going the larger (16Ah) cells in 3P44S, just getting the funds together. Its getting filled with lead at the moment as a proof of concept, it definitly fits, but - it weighs a TON. (well, 120Kg, which is excessive).
Last edited by heathyoung on Oct 04, 2011 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GNG offroad build on Craftworks DHR with 12S2P lipo. Light, balanced, powerful, able to climb a tree.
Project Vectrii (2) - status - Finished. Nope. 38S Leaf cells are next. Now have 2 of them - Averages 50Wh/Klm

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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by oatnet » Sep 06, 2011 10:16 pm

c_IMG_0396.JPG
The Vectrix Battery, Yogurt for scale. The rear battery is on the left, the front battery on the right. The controller plugs in on the left, to the rear battery. The rear battery plugs into the front battery, both connectors at the front. The circuit loops around in the bottom tray of the front battery. When it is not plugged into the front battery, the rear batt does not make a complete circuit.
c_IMG_0396.JPG (51.83 KiB) Viewed 5447 times
D1_IMG_0397R Top.JPG
Top Layer of rear battery. Cells 9-1 are on the top row, and cells 93-102 are in the bottom row.
D1_IMG_0397R Top.JPG (73.85 KiB) Viewed 5447 times
D2_IMG_0398R_Mid.JPG
Middle layer of rear battery. Cells 10-19 are on the top row, and cells 92-84 are on the bottom row.
D2_IMG_0398R_Mid.JPG (79.52 KiB) Viewed 5447 times
D3_IMG_0400R_bottom.JPG
Bottom layer of rear battery. Cells 29-20 are on the top row, and cells 75-83 are on the bottom row. These connect to cells 28 and 74, in the top layer of the front pack.
D3_IMG_0400R_bottom.JPG (78.65 KiB) Viewed 5447 times
D4_IMG_0402F_top.JPG
Top layer of front battery. Cells 28-36 on the top row, cells 74-66 on the bottom row
D4_IMG_0402F_top.JPG (68.95 KiB) Viewed 5447 times
D5_IMG_0403f_middle.JPG
Middle Layer of front battery. Cells 44-37 on the top row, Cells 65-56 on the bottom row. Looks like I failed to take a picture of the front bottom layer, which connects the top and bottom rows to complete the circuit.
D5_IMG_0403f_middle.JPG (87.48 KiB) Viewed 5445 times
D6_IMG_0399.JPG
Antiscab's video mentioned that these nuts were difficult to remove, I dropped a socket over the bolt and turned them by hand.
D6_IMG_0399.JPG (98.98 KiB) Viewed 5445 times
d7_IMG_0404.JPG
The harvest for the day - the two battery harnesses that I will need to connect to my pack, to fool the Vectrix into thinking the old pack is still there. Front harness white, Back harness black.
d7_IMG_0404.JPG (63.93 KiB) Viewed 5447 times
e_IMG_0408.JPG
Looks like I have about 1/2" to spare, for clearance against the back of the battery box, when running 5 serial Headways in each row.
e_IMG_0408.JPG (57.92 KiB) Viewed 5447 times
f_IMG_0413.JPG
More of yesterday's harvest - I cut a layer of phenolic plastic to cover the live terminals and the front and back of the new battery. I also cut 2 sheets of 3/16" plywood to the size of the bottom of the battery box. I'll build the first 6 rows of the battery on one sheet, put another sheet on top, and use them to hoist the 6 rows into the battery tray. Then I'll build 3 more rows on it, while it is in the battery tray. Confused? Well, wait until I do it and post pics. :D
f_IMG_0413.JPG (53.96 KiB) Viewed 5447 times
g_IMG_0416.JPG
Much of my work from today. The black rods will be the battery terminals at each end of the pack, and are 3 layers of 1" copper strap, notched to fit the headway cell holders, wrapped in heatshrink, waiting to have holes cut out for battery terminals. (13) battery harness mounts, bare drilled copper this morning now with fuses and heatshrink for between the cells. A dozen row-joiners, notched to fit the headway cell holders. Also the harness for the Vectrix cell monitors.
g_IMG_0416.JPG (56.47 KiB) Viewed 5447 times
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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by heathyoung » Sep 07, 2011 9:38 pm

The thing that complains about the battery temperature, voltage blah blah is the (rather crappy) charger.

If you get rid of it, you get no problems, and you have a voltage meter on the dash rather than the inaccurate 'AH' gauge.

I've had mine running all of the lights etc. off a pair of modded 48V meanwells in series (112V).
GNG offroad build on Craftworks DHR with 12S2P lipo. Light, balanced, powerful, able to climb a tree.
Project Vectrii (2) - status - Finished. Nope. 38S Leaf cells are next. Now have 2 of them - Averages 50Wh/Klm

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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by MitchJi » Sep 08, 2011 3:26 pm

Hi,
heathyoung wrote:The thing that complains about the battery temperature, voltage blah blah is the (rather crappy) charger.

If you get rid of it, you get no problems, and you have a voltage meter on the dash rather than the inaccurate 'AH' gauge.
Or a Cycle Analyst :).
Best Wishes!

Mitch


The best quality batteries and lowest priced batteries for DIY EV's are tier 1 OEM Quality Cells from salvaged (wrecked) EV packs. Two examples are Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf packs.

Nissan Leaf Module specs are here
Chevy Volt Pack Info - Salvage 16kwh Packs Under $2k here
The cells are rated conservatively by GM at 7.8C, Yabert's tests of Volt packs on the DiyEv car forum suggest a higher C rate, 15+ C!.

$1,400 plus $360 freight. Still over $1k less than new lead!

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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by heathyoung » Oct 04, 2011 10:01 pm

Out of interest - any more photos? Love to see the finished thing (and keep dreaming of lithium conversion, some financial setbacks will keep me from achieving this, at this rate anyway) :|
GNG offroad build on Craftworks DHR with 12S2P lipo. Light, balanced, powerful, able to climb a tree.
Project Vectrii (2) - status - Finished. Nope. 38S Leaf cells are next. Now have 2 of them - Averages 50Wh/Klm

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Vectrix Battery Replacement-From NiMh to Headway 38120s LiFe

Post by oatnet » Nov 19, 2011 4:18 pm

We had a lot of fun with this, I hope you do too. :D

-JD

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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by BLUESTREAK » Nov 20, 2011 1:35 am

BEAUTIFUL OATNET: :D :D :D :D

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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by darkshirikens » Nov 21, 2011 4:11 pm

That is nice build video and music was a nice touch lol how many Ah does your have ?
When you get to ride it let us know the difference in the feel of it before and after.
Schwinn Sidewinder Crystalyte 7240 controller, X5305 motor, Headway 72v 12ah 50/100 bms done !!!
Next project on way: Crystalyte Ht rear 3525

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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by oatnet » Nov 21, 2011 6:09 pm

darkshirikens wrote:That is nice build video and music was a nice touch lol how many Ah does your have ?
When you get to ride it let us know the difference in the feel of it before and after.
Thanks darkshirikens and Bluestreak! :D :D :D

The new 7.4kwh LiFePO4 pack is configured 45s5p, 50ah and 164v off the charger, roughly double the capacity of the 3.7kwh NiMh pack the bike came with. I travelled 46.5 aggressive miles on an '80% DOD test ride' that pulled 40ah/5700wh from the pack. Resting voltage only dropped to 144.7v, or 3.21v/cell, so there was enough juice left in the pack to accomodate an out-of-balance condition on future 80%DOD cycles. The range of 46.5 miles would be enough to do my work commute for (3) days (although I keep the battery topped up), or to do 30+ miles of errands after work. 8) Frankly, my old body was exhausted by the 46.5 mile test, so I think I will run out of energy long before the moto does. :oops:

The Vectrix 2.0 pulls low amps (40-50) on launch, increasing with speed to a maximum of about 220 amps. I noted cruising up a steep hill at 50mph only pulled 60a. The Old pack was only 136v after charging, and after a few miles easily sagged under load to <108v to trigger the 'reduced performance' mode. This means the old pack was getting 24kw peaks into the motor, but the new one gets about 32kw into it, 33% more power. 70mph comes up very very fast now. The moto pulls MUCH harder from 30mph to the 72mph speed-limiting cutoff, and it is pulling so strong at cutoff that my helmet bounced off the windscreen the first time it kicked in. :P

I've been riding it for a few weeks now, range anxiety is a thing of the past, and I still haven't gotten used to all the new power, so I am thrilled. With the upgrade, my Vectrix has become exactly the bike I fantisized it was before I bought it. :lol:

-JD
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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by BLUESTREAK » Nov 22, 2011 6:33 am

YES IT MUST BE NICE WHEN A DREAM COMES TRUE. I hope my vectrix trike project comes true like your battery swap, I hope to get back on it this winter. I spent all spring and summer working on my (1966 IMPALA SS SHOW CAR) and its almost finished (working on this car since 1974). I love my MERIDIAN TRIKES and will continue this ELECTRIC JOURNEY. OATNET we love your work keep it going. BLUESTREAK. :D :D :D :D :D

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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by heathyoung » Nov 22, 2011 5:10 pm

Its interesting how that happens with the LVC mode that drops the power to the MC - I would have loved to have gone headways for my build, but some thundersky cells came up at a price I couldn't refuse - $16 each for the 40AH units...

Looks like 44/45S is a good setup.
GNG offroad build on Craftworks DHR with 12S2P lipo. Light, balanced, powerful, able to climb a tree.
Project Vectrii (2) - status - Finished. Nope. 38S Leaf cells are next. Now have 2 of them - Averages 50Wh/Klm

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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by oatnet » Nov 22, 2011 5:55 pm

Thanks Bluestreak, good luck with your Impala, nice car!

Heath, $16 each is a worthy price. I am pretty sure that the T-Sky's are rated at 3c which would be 120a. I have seen the bike pull 220a, so I am curious whether you will get the full cycle life from them. At $16/pop, who cares! :lol: One thing is for sure - there is a good reason the piddly 125a fuse's these were built with kept blowing.

45s is pretty sweet, way more power than I am used to :lol: but I have no idea how it would compare to a gas bike. You've poked around the MC, what do you reckon the max voltage it will handle is?

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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by darkshirikens » Nov 28, 2011 5:43 pm

That is great to have your dreams come true it always a good feeling of accomplishment !!!
oatnet wrote:
Frankly, my old body was exhausted by the 46.5 mile test, so I think I will run out of energy long before the moto does. :oops: [/quote wrote: "
:lol: At least you know you did a good job just don't let a women hear you say that the battery out lasted you Lmao...!

Keep up the good work !
Schwinn Sidewinder Crystalyte 7240 controller, X5305 motor, Headway 72v 12ah 50/100 bms done !!!
Next project on way: Crystalyte Ht rear 3525

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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by slayer » Nov 30, 2011 10:11 pm

Wow very nice Oatnet ...good job and impressing improvement i am very happy for you.
can t wait to come back home and watch the video

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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by deVries » Apr 25, 2012 2:46 am

oatnet wrote: The new 7.4kwh LiFePO4 pack is configured 45s5p, 50ah and 164v off the charger, roughly double the capacity of the 3.7kwh NiMh pack the bike came with. I travelled 46.5 aggressive miles on an '80% DOD test ride' that pulled 40ah/5700wh from the pack. Resting voltage only dropped to 144.7v, or 3.21v/cell, so there was enough juice left in the pack to accomodate an out-of-balance condition on future 80%DOD cycles. The range of 46.5 miles would be enough to do my work commute for (3) days (although I keep the battery topped up), or to do 30+ miles of errands after work. 8) Frankly, my old body was exhausted by the 46.5 mile test, so I think I will run out of energy long before the moto does. :oops:

The Vectrix 2.0 pulls low amps (40-50) on launch, increasing with speed to a maximum of about 220 amps. I noted cruising up a steep hill at 50mph only pulled 60a. The Old pack was only 136v after charging, and after a few miles easily sagged under load to <108v to trigger the 'reduced performance' mode. This means the old pack was getting 24kw peaks into the motor, but the new one gets about 32kw into it, 33% more power. 70mph comes up very very fast now. The moto pulls MUCH harder from 30mph to the 72mph speed-limiting cutoff, and it is pulling so strong at cutoff that my helmet bounced off the windscreen the first time it kicked in. :P

I've been riding it for a few weeks now, range anxiety is a thing of the past, and I still haven't gotten used to all the new power, so I am thrilled. With the upgrade, my Vectrix has become exactly the bike I fantisized it was before I bought it.
Seems like just yesterday I was reading your posts about getting this bike & being licensed to ride a motorcycle for the 1st time... :shock:

How safe do you feel riding this as far as handling for any emergency "defensive driving" to avoid an accident with automobiles? :?: :?: Do you think it's safe enough with your skills & dealing with traffic to ride defensively to avoid auto accidents long-term? :?:

Would your setup be able to ride 65mph on the highway for 20 miles then 60mph for 15 miles? :?:

Could you recharge enough for 6-hours & repeat above? Then overnight charge to do it again. :?:

I have a friend that is interested in doing this. :D

Well, you've been riding this setup for awhile now. How do you like it so far? :?: Anything you would change at this point if you had to do it over again? :?: :idea:

I read somewhere you have a pre-order in for the Brammo Empulse... :shock: :twisted:

What is the sticker shock on these? :?:

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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by oatnet » Apr 25, 2012 11:22 am

Last month was my 2 year anniversary of owning the bike, so I made it that far without laying it down, and I hope I never do. I read somewhere that 70% of new riders lay it down in the first year, glad I didn't join that statistic, and I will work hard to avoid becoming part of any similar statistics.

Riding a moto, or an ebike, is never safe. I think fear is a good motivater to keep your attention on the road. I used to follow the MSF's advice to "ride like you are invisible", now I "ride like they are out to get me". I pretend my ride is a video game, where my 'opponent' could be hidden around any blind curve, waiting to pop out of any driveway, and has littered my path with gravel on every turn. This keeps me seeking out potential hazards and planning on how to react.

Given my initial tests, I am pretty sure it could handle the 35 mile duty cycle you describe, and recharge as well, but you would probably need a 240v charger to pump that much current in 6 hours.

The bike suits me well, I like having a trunk, but moto riders laugh at the scooter format. The sit-up seating format is comfortable, but it doesn't have the control of a bike you can grip with your knees.

I used headway cells because I had them sitting around, so they were free to me, but as you can see from the video below they were a real pain to engineer into the battery box, and they just barely fit. If I were to do it again, I would use the 20ah a123 prisimatics - one of those 43s3p modules would probably drop right in, but I'd probably make my own 45s6p 120ah pack.

The "100 mile" version of the Empulse is 14k.

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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by grindz145 » Apr 27, 2012 11:04 am

Holy awesome! I've been trying to snag one of those guys for a while. I missed a chance last year.

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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by velias » May 05, 2012 8:01 pm

What are the orange zip-ties around the end of each cell in the upper layers for?

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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by oatnet » May 05, 2012 8:47 pm

velias wrote:What are the orange zip-ties around the end of each cell in the upper layers for?
The orange cell holders only support one side of the cell, and the other side is supported only by the compression held by the set-screw joining the cells. I looked for zip ties that were the same thickness compressed, as the gap made by the cell holders. One of the colors they came in an orange color similar to the cell holders. I don't know how effecitve it will be in the long run, and compression may be more than enough to hold the cells in place anyhow, but time will tell.
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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by deVries » May 06, 2012 7:35 am

oatnet wrote:The Vectrix 2.0 pulls low amps (40-50) on launch, increasing with speed to a maximum of about 220 amps. I noted cruising up a steep hill at 50mph only pulled 60a. The Old pack was only 136v after charging, and after a few miles easily sagged under load to <108v to trigger the 'reduced performance' mode. This means the old pack was getting 24kw peaks into the motor, but the new one gets about 32kw into it, 33% more power. 70mph comes up very very fast now. The moto pulls MUCH harder from 30mph to the 72mph speed-limiting cutoff, and it is pulling so strong at cutoff that my helmet bounced off the windscreen the first time it kicked in
Does this mean you can out accelerate most cars from a stop or when entering the highway without big drain on the battery to do it? :?:

Do cars give you more "respect" and see you better vs riding an eBike? :?:

How is the suspension & ride at higher speeds, especially, 65-70mph? :?: Road bumps, wind drift or push, being passed by 18 wheelers or big cars/trucks with suck/push feel, twitchy in any way, or just some other negative aspect about going at those higher speeds on the highway that would make you nervous doing it day in and day out? :?: In other words, it really does ride very good with handling & speed to be a true highway cruiser though range is limited. AND, you prefer the heavier weight & big bike feel at these higher speeds too? :?:

Lastly, does it really feel very nimble for dodging city traffic & weaving city streets without being ungainly or less responsive than you would hope for? :?: (Since it is a big & heavy bike.)

Thanks! :D

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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by oatnet » May 06, 2012 11:43 am

deVries wrote:Does this mean you can out accelerate most cars from a stop or when entering the highway without big drain on the battery to do it? :?:
I do out-accellerate most cars, but that also seems to happen with the old honda civic sedan/beater I drive when its raining, so I think that is more a function of driving style than performance.
deVries wrote:Do cars give you more "respect" and see you better vs riding an eBike? :?:
Well, cars are not suprised to see you take a lane and I guess that is a form of respect, but many times you are invisible to them, so it is a mixed bag. Somewhere around here is my story of converting from MSF's (Motorcycle Safety Foundation) saying "Ride like you are invisible" to "Ride like they are out to get you". That saved my ass on last Friday.
deVries wrote:How is the suspension & ride at higher speeds, especially, 65-70mph? :?: Road bumps, wind drift or push, being passed by 18 wheelers or big cars/trucks with suck/push feel, twitchy in any way, or just some other negative aspect about going at those higher speeds on the highway that would make you nervous doing it day in and day out? :?: In other words, it really does ride very good with handling & speed to be a true highway cruiser though range is limited. AND, you prefer the heavier weight & big bike feel at these higher speeds too? :?:
There is a gladiatorial aspect to riding a moto, a tension of will overcoming fear to achieve grace, so I am always nervous. The Vectrix associated with that effort, however, is a comfortable, stable ride, appropriate to a low COG from the battery pack set low between the wheels. It is by no means a sport bike, but it leans over nicely. The seat and the upright seating position are very comfortable but I wish I could grip the bike with my knees and not my butt. I am not a fan of the bench-seating format, but the shape of seat does really hold your butt in place for moderate control.

The smaller wheels and Maxi-Scooter format don't get much respect from the motorcycle crowd, but it does 72mph and has a trunk I can store my helmet and bring groceries home in. It is also has a bunch of brand name kit on it, whatever. :roll: :D

I don't have cause to ride it on the highway.
deVries wrote:Lastly, does it really feel very nimble for dodging city traffic & weaving city streets without being ungainly or less responsive than you would hope for? :?: (Since it is a big & heavy bike.)
I think agility has a lot to do with the rider. This is capable of the duty you suggest, but it is not a sport bike. If this is your first moto, it will feel heavy and ungainly at first, and everytime you lean it will feel like it is going to fall over. Then you adapt, find the balance, and don't think about it anymore. I think the experience helped me adapt to a heavy front-mounted battery pack on ebikes and unlock the superior handling. For a beginner I'd highly recommend an MSF "BRC" (Basic rider course), they supply the motos, teach you how to ride them, and in California it replaces the driving test for getting your motorcycle license.

-JD
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deVries
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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by deVries » May 10, 2012 1:48 am

oatnet wrote:I think agility has a lot to do with the rider. This is capable of the duty you suggest, but it is not a sport bike. If this is your first moto, it will feel heavy and ungainly at first, and everytime you lean it will feel like it is going to fall over. Then you adapt, find the balance, and don't think about it anymore. I think the experience helped me adapt to a heavy front-mounted battery pack on ebikes and unlock the superior handling. For a beginner I'd highly recommend an MSF "BRC" (Basic rider course), they supply the motos, teach you how to ride them, and in California it replaces the driving test for getting your motorcycle license.
As you know, I've been looking into buying an EV motorcycle or scooter new/used or do an ICE conversion.

One thing I came across also is the ZEV. They seem to boast a lot of improvements over the Vectrix, etc. Have you researched or looked into this to know anything about this brand? :?: Just curious if you have any opinions about it.

Thanks. :D

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oatnet
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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by oatnet » May 10, 2012 11:40 am

deVries wrote: One thing I came across also is the ZEV. They seem to boast a lot of improvements over the Vectrix, etc. Have you researched or looked into this to know anything about this brand? :?: Just curious if you have any opinions about it.
They boast about a lot of things - like being the "worlds most powerful" by supplying 9200w continious, which is only 60a on my Vectrix, which does 200a. Then you look at that 7100 model, which only does 7100w, although you can order an 8500w model, 700w short of 9200w. I've always been turned off by their marketing, it seems disingenious to me.

To me, the Vectrix is an overpriced larger moto built to US manufacturing standards, and the ZEVs are a less expensive chinese design/parts purportedly "assembled in the US". In the used market, the Vectrix would come with aging NiMh, and the ZEV with low-grade lithium. I have to figure I am biased though, so I'd advise you to take a spin on both and form your own opinions. Look at the build of the battery boxes on both, look how the controllers were placed, look at the build of the swingarm, look at manufacturer of the brakes/tires/suspension,

-JD
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153v DUNE BUGGY © 164v Vectrix E-Moto © 72v Norco A-line/x5403 © 60v Specialized Enduro Comp/BMC © 72v x5tracycle © 48v TF IO/BMC © 36v Kepler FrictionDrive © Spot-Welding a123 © Pelican Front Packs © Vectrix Battery Replacement © MORE !!


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Re: Oatnet goes Vectrix!

Post by velias » May 21, 2012 12:01 am

I must have missed something, but what BMS is it using for balancing etc. now? does it shut it down at LVC? Does the original motor controller still work with the different batteries/higher voltage or did you replace the motor controller too?

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