Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

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Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by olaf-lampe » Sep 12, 2010 5:26 am

Hi guys,

a friend of mine is driving in the dutch mini bike race series for a few years now. He also builds his own frames:
pocket%20bike.jpeg
65cc Puch motor w 15HP limited power
pocket%20bike.jpeg (22.29 KiB) Viewed 12967 times
He was kind enough to sell me an old frame and helps me to convert it to electric. :D
It'll be driven by the turnigy CA120-70 running at 8s/53AH Kokam cells. Controller is still under investigation. I ordered the watercooled turnigy aquastar 240A. Another option is a (soon to be modded) 18 FET infineon controller I already have as spare for my recumbent.

Today I started to take some pictures to discuss the packaging of components:
The motor will drive an adjustable centrifugal clutch. I'll use a 4:1 - 8:1 single reduction with common mini bike chain and sprockets.
Target speed is 35-70km/h depending on the race track.
motor_side.jpg
ca120 above the rear frame
motor_side.jpg (86.08 KiB) Viewed 1778 times
The 8s battery will fit between the tubes of the frame. I have to cut off the Puch motor mounts to place the battery a bit lower and move it closer to the rear tire. I will also mount them with the connectors upwards. The controller will fit under the seat. Waterpump and other stuff will be placed under the fake tank. Radiator will be in front of the battery or also under the seat.
ground clearance.jpg
8s kokam 53ah between the tubes
ground clearance.jpg (106.74 KiB) Viewed 1778 times
To cover and protect things, I have Polini side covers. I have to modify them to suit the different airflow.
ground clearance w cover.jpg
ground clearance w cover.jpg (86.33 KiB) Viewed 1778 times
I hope to have the bike running in three weeks. Than there is a 2 hour endurance race comming up. I hope, we find some time to introduce the e-mini bike to the public.

BTW: I'm looking for a cool name for the pocket rocket... any suggestions?
-Olaf

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by Arlo1 » Sep 12, 2010 5:34 am

Well I named my bmx "bad Idea" so thats taken.
But good work great idea.
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
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RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by Jay64 » Sep 12, 2010 7:35 pm

Looks like a cool project. Look forward to seeing the finished project.
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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by olaf-lampe » Sep 13, 2010 9:14 am

A colleague of mine suggested: mean-e-bike
This is my favorite for now.

-Olaf

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by vanilla ice » Sep 13, 2010 11:09 am

Great! What is the projected run time? Are you going to swap batteries for the 2h race?

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by olaf-lampe » Sep 14, 2010 1:18 am

vanilla ice wrote:Great! What is the projected run time? Are you going to swap batteries for the 2h race?
A usual heat is 15 minutes. I will not race with it in the 2h endurance race.
The battery has ~1.5kwh which is enough to deliver an average power of 6.5kW over 15 min. Than I have to recharge in 1h before the next heat starts.

-Olaf

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by Gregory » Sep 14, 2010 3:40 am

Looks great.

Paint it green and be the "Green Mean-E"


1) x5305 Hub Motor in a 24" Sun rim with 10G spokes, Kelly 72601 controller, 74V 10Ah Turnigy LiPo 20C Battery and CycleAnalyst
2) Mac 10T rear hub in a 700C "comfort bike" 15S 5Ah LiPo, stock 28A Xie Cheng controller
3) 38" Longboard, Turnigy 6374, CC Mamba XL2 ESC

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by vanilla ice » Sep 14, 2010 12:58 pm

That would be cool if you could charge in 15 minutes. Then you could do an endurance race with only two packs..

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by olaf-lampe » Sep 15, 2010 1:27 am

vanilla ice wrote:That would be cool if you could charge in 15 minutes. Then you could do an endurance race with only two packs..
The only cells I know that can handle 4c charge rate are a123 pouches. Hard to get these days.
Actually I would like to try a 30Ah cell instead of 53Ah. For the same weight and space, I would then get a higher voltage and could reduce the gear ratio. But we only have these Kokams on stock now.

I received a new clutch housing. It comes with an extra support for the sprocket. The baseplate of the centrifugal arms will be threaded directly to the motor bell.

I'll add a picture later...
-Olaf

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by Arlo1 » Sep 15, 2010 1:49 am

olaf-lampe wrote:
vanilla ice wrote:That would be cool if you could charge in 15 minutes. Then you could do an endurance race with only two packs..
The only cells I know that can handle 4c charge rate are a123 pouches. Hard to get these days.
-Olaf
Lipo??????????????????? Just used Lipo!!!!!!!!!! :mrgreen:
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by Arlo1 » Sep 15, 2010 1:51 am

Looks like he already has lipo lol!
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by olaf-lampe » Sep 15, 2010 9:33 am

Arlo1 wrote:Looks like he already has lipo lol!
Kokam cells have a bit different chemistry in that size. They don't catch fire like the LiCobalt cells for RC-purposes. IIRC it's LiNiCoMn...something.
Fast charge is rated 2C for them.
-Olaf

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by olaf-lampe » Sep 15, 2010 2:29 pm

Here are some pics of the radiator and the clutch(-es. They are available with 6,7,8,9,tooth ). Nothing spectecular, but they fit like a glove.
I also have a slightly larger aluminium radiator which is a lot lighter, but will not fit as easily.
radiator side.jpg
radiator side.jpg (70.78 KiB) Viewed 1567 times
clutch.jpg
clutch.jpg (76.93 KiB) Viewed 1567 times
I have a MES-DEA waterpump that runs on 12V but I don't know where to get 12V from?( maybe I put a separate 3s Zippy Lipo under the tank)
The other option is a mechanic waterpump driven by a belt from the rear wheel, but I want to cool the controller down, even when the bike isn't rolling anymore.
If the turnigy aquastar isn't up to the task, I consider a watercooling-mod for the 18FET infineon. That'd require a higher voltage and different batteries. I hope the aquastar does the trick... :(
-Olaf

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by johnws6 » Sep 18, 2010 8:44 pm

I think this may work for your application to drop down the voltage to 12 volts if you want to run the water cooling idea. I think if yo ucan find a surplus automotive washer pump motor it may work. Anyways here is what i saw on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Powerful-DC-24V-12V ... 53e2a36b37

I'm also wondering, where did you go about finding 53 ah kokam cells? Are these LiMn cells or lipo cells?

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by olaf-lampe » Sep 19, 2010 9:47 am

Thanks John for the link.
I guess a common windscreenwasher-waterpump will do, My MES-Dea pump is way to big for the task.

I'm working at http://www.ececars.nl :D
IntroECELotus.jpg
IntroECELotus.jpg (8.55 KiB) Viewed 12713 times
Most of our cars are powered by these LiNiCoMN Kokam cells and some are not fulfilling our qualitytest and are therefor available for such fun projects. ( approx. 1-2% are slightly bent or have small marks in the pouches whereas the foil is stressed)

-Olaf

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by scouser-nick:) » Sep 23, 2010 2:56 pm

looks like fun to me :D wont water and lecy clash if something goes wrong....like a crash? :shock:
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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by olaf-lampe » Sep 24, 2010 2:10 am

scouser-nick:) wrote:looks like fun to me :D wont water and lecy clash if something goes wrong....like a crash? :shock:
Good question,
at hobbycity they claim the controller is waterproof, but several users have reported different stories of leaking water and fried controllers.
I'll take it apart and seal it before use.
The batteries will be mounted with the connectors up. I'll protect the connectors with 'conductive grease' that keeps the water from the battery tabs.
Even a rainy day or wet track shouldn't harm them.
Another issue is the motor sitting above the rear wheel. We have to protect it against any obstacles that may fly around.

-Olaf

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by AussieJester » Sep 24, 2010 2:36 am

Run Fluid XP instead of water then if it leaks it wont matter its non conductive fluid some use
when watercooling PCs ...

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by olaf-lampe » Sep 24, 2010 3:47 am

AussieJester wrote:Run Fluid XP instead of water then if it leaks it wont matter its non conductive fluid some use
when watercooling PCs ...

KiM
Good advice, thanks KiM!
I used to use demineralized water in my overclocking days.
I flooded the cpu-socked and the graphic card several times with no problems.
-Olaf

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by scouser-nick:) » Sep 24, 2010 9:43 am

huh cool :) good luck should be interesting to see this!
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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by olaf-lampe » Sep 25, 2010 2:04 pm

I had the chance to use our workshop for some private jobs today.
So I started to build the battery:
kokam_stacking.jpg
two copperstrips and a little conductive grease
kokam_stacking.jpg (81.87 KiB) Viewed 411 times
Kokam_whole_top.jpg
the first and last connectors are longer to attach cables
Kokam_whole_top.jpg (88.2 KiB) Viewed 411 times
I could fit 8 cells between the frame but without any room for protection covers.
So I decided to add another two cells to the pack and put six cells in the frame and two cells on each side.
Kokam_frame-side.jpg
Lots of room left for the radiator
Kokam_frame-side.jpg (110.84 KiB) Viewed 411 times
Kokam_frame-top.jpg
The outer cells 'spoon' nicely between the bends of the frame
Kokam_frame-top.jpg (80.26 KiB) Viewed 411 times
Now I have to develope a nice rack for the cells and a quicklock for the battery poles to be able to exchange the whole battery in less than 10sec. ( Mr. Shai Agassi will be proud of me :lol: )

-Olaf

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by Bluefang » Nov 03, 2010 9:10 pm

Hey mate, Have you made any progress on the bike recently? How well does the clutch fit with the motor, are you using a transmission from the pocket bike to gear it down abit or going direct drive? I have been looking at some pocket bikes and you can get some cheap ones with 3-4 speed sequential automatics, seeing as you know abit about the pocket bikes do you think that those gearboxes can be separated from the engine and adapted for use with a electric motor?
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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by olaf-lampe » Nov 04, 2010 3:23 pm

Hi Bluefang,
thanks for reminding me to update the blog. :oops:
Things are going slow in the welding department and also the aquastar-controller is giving me a hard time to set the parameters right.
I already bought a nice PC watercooling radiator with integrated 12v pump and a big fan ( i won't need the fan )
radiator_w_pump.jpg
radiator_w_pump.jpg (92.54 KiB) Viewed 332 times
As backup plan I bought a 'naked' 12 FET infineon controller from ES member Lyen, which will have watercooled irfb3077 FETs and my homebrew 'overkill' massive copper power traces. ( more of that soon :twisted: )

In the meantime I made an adapter from nylon for the clutch. Unfortunately all clutches I got from my college aren't fitting in the clutch bells I had. So I have ordered another clutch, then finish the adapter.
clutch_adapter.jpg
clutch_adapter.jpg (80.78 KiB) Viewed 332 times
clutch_adapter2.jpg
clutch_adapter2.jpg (81.48 KiB) Viewed 332 times
clutch_adapter3.jpg
clutch_adapter3.jpg (97.44 KiB) Viewed 332 times
On sunday I will have my first practice session on a 49cc chinese pocket bike on an indoor kart-track. :shock:
Man, these things are weird to drive :D
-Olaf

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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by Bluefang » Nov 06, 2010 7:45 pm

So you are attaching the clutch to the bell of the motor and not to the shaft on the other end where the motor mount is? I am looking to attach a CVT to a electric motor eventually like http://cgi.ebay.com.au/X-2-X-8-R-6-Pock ... 5ad3d49139. I have never worked on these and i was just going to buy one and see how to directly connect it to the motor, but i assume all i need to mount it to the motor properly with a clutch is make a adapter plate that mounts on to the motor that the CVT can bolt to with a clutch pack fixed to the motor shaft on the inside of that bronzy colored bell on the CVT. This will all be very useful if i use a CC controller on the motor

FYI these CVTs have been used on another forum http://motorbicycling.com/#motorized-bicycle a fair bit and seem to be able to handle some fair abuse when used as the primary reduction.
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Re: Building a pocket bike with CA120-70 [8.6kW]

Post by olaf-lampe » Nov 07, 2010 8:36 am

It's an interesting CVT box, but it would only be useful when the motortorque is too low. In my case I have to limit the torque with the clutch to keep the controller alive. If I'd use the CVT instead, it would imediately switch to the fastest gearing ( in my imagination at least) :?
I wouldn't suggest to use the motorshaft to drive something. The power of the motor comes from the bell. The shaft should only work as the guiding centerpoint.

Here in the Netherlands it's not allowed to have gearboxes with more than one gear. ( I'm talking about the dutch minibike challenge) Therefor I didn't look much into those semiautomatic or CVT gearboxes. There is also no room left in the engine department. Even less in an electric version...
Probably for dirt-bikes or midi-bikes?

Anyways, today I had a few nice laps on the karttrack. :mrgreen:
I had several technical problems with the carb and exhaustmounts. ( all solvable and not unexpected )
I twisted my left knee and ankle, when I cornered too hard. In other words a perfect racing day :twisted:

I spoke to the admin of the dutch minibike forum and he was interested to see some pictures. My workmate who sold his selfmade frame to me, will start a buildblog in the dutch forum and hopefully next spring we'll have something to show.

-Olaf

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