Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Gordo » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:34 am

inspiredvoltfreak wrote: :x A good friend of mine is going to help me with designing the body. My plan is to put up a layer of thin ABS and glue foam to it. I will then cut and sand the foam to the shapes I want and then fiberglass over and paint it.


The trike it is looking very good. Is the final drive from a Justy? Better get it done before the monsoons return, but then they really haven't quit yet have they?
I imagine you know to use Polyurethane foam so the polyester resin does not eat the foam away? If you track down a source of Polyurethane foam sheets you will find they have "offcuts" available cheap, especially if they are tapered in thickness from end to end. The foam bun sometimes shifts on the table and weird cuts result. I used to buy 5 ton truckloads of offcuts in Vancouver, for next to nothing, and insulate everything with it.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:29 pm

Thanks for the tip! I knew foam could be eaten by some glues etc but didn't know yet what foam to use. Do you have any suggestions for where to get it? What types of places might have offcuts? Is the cladmate they sell at home depot the right stuff?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Hillhater » Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:42 am

Whiplash wrote:I would try to get them flatter for sure for efficiency's sake, but I doubt they will break with the elec motor. The power is too smooth to break them I would think..


I was not expecting breakage, but wear will be rapid and the rubber boots will split frequently if run like that for long periods.
Probably get a lot of friction heat in them too.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Arlo1 » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:24 am

Hillhater wrote:
Whiplash wrote:I would try to get them flatter for sure for efficiency's sake, but I doubt they will break with the elec motor. The power is too smooth to break them I would think..


I was not expecting breakage, but wear will be rapid and the rubber boots will split frequently if run like that for long periods.
Probably get a lot of friction heat in them too.

Hi torque on a cv that is on a sharp angle causes breakage very quickly! Just ask the import FWD car guys who like doing reverse donuts! Turning the wheels then giving a bunch of power to the wheels with any amount of decent traction snaps those shafts or causes the cups and balls to prematurely wear out!
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Gordo » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:20 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:Thanks for the tip! I knew foam could be eaten by some glues etc but didn't know yet what foam to use. Do you have any suggestions for where to get it? What types of places might have offcuts? Is the cladmate they sell at home depot the right stuff?


I don't know who, if anyone, is still cutting buns in the area.
Cladmate is Styrofoam, the wrong foam for a mold that you are going to coat with polyester resin. An option is to use any cheap styrofoam and then epoxy resin for the first coat. Epoxy won't eat styrofoam. Then use polyester for the additional layups to reduce cost.

I know you are anxious to get this thing going so you can benefit from the fuel savings. Once you have some spare time, you might want to take another look at the idea of using a swing arm for the rear suspension. It makes the unsprung weight huge and doesn't work well. A better design is to mount the swing arm ridged and have independent suspension on each wheel. It is a little tricky to get the center of the "A" arm mount points perfectly aligned with the centers of the "U" joints at the final drive. There is a good reason why all commercial trikes use this system and fix the swingarm solid. Handling.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby johnhead@frontiernet.net » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:55 pm

For the body panels you can do what I did on the Stealth E-3, I first taped waxed paper covering the area that you want to cover (and to prevent the fiberglass rosin from sticking to batteries etc). 2nd take some "exercise cloth" that can stretch in two directions and pull it taught over the wax paper area. Tape the cloth to adjacent areas that will not be converted to fiberglass. You now have a "stretch fabric" cover that simulates the actual cover you wish to make. 3rd, Take some fiberglass rosin that has had the hardener added and carefully "paint" this mixture over the tight cloth. It will saturate the cloth. Let his harden. You have now created a brittle "cover". Add layers of fiberglass mat and rosin to build this "cover" up in thickness and to add strength.
Best of luck.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:20 am

Just to clarify, this is not a hardtail. I have used the original suspension. It is not however independent suspension so both wheels do go up and down at the same time. If i ever build another one it will be a reverse trike with independent suspension and rwd. I will see what i can do about the cv angles but probably not anything due to battery clearance.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Gordo » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:21 pm

I understand your suspension system. Your unsprung weight is probably 4-5X what the single rear wheel was. This is very bad for handling. You may experience control problems if you ever hit a moderate bump, while even in a shallow corner. I have only ridden 2 factory motorcycle trikes, plus been with one which crashed. Even with the proper steering head angle and low unsprung weight, I would not ride one. I'm with you on the tadpole. It has traction problems and is twitchy, but still easier to keep going in the intended direction and keep upright.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:34 pm

I'm giving a lot of thought to this and trying to decide how to proceed. I have experienced a bit of what your talking about just driving in my back lane as one section is just gravel and is quite bumpy. I'm also considering the CV angle problem. I don't have clearance with the rear batteries where they are. If I made the Swing arm solid and then mounted the wheels independent it would solve the CV angle problem as I could bring the Differential up to level without hitting the batteries. That's a huge amount of work though. If I do that I will be waiting until I've at least test ridden it at high speed to see how it performs. I suppose I could take the monoshock out and replace it with a solid bar of Aluminum to rigidize the suspension. Then I'd just have to deal with making the wheels independent.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Gordo » Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:20 pm

It only takes a piece of 1" pipe to replace the shock on such a light rig. We only use 1" dia sched 40 pipe on a 10,000 lb RV to replace a blown airbag. In compression it will easily support 4000 lbs. Tack welding the swing arm pivot will make it hell for strong.
You have a difficult call to make on doing a major refit at this point. I have built a lot of haywire stuff in my day, from bikes, to cars, trucks, boats and aircraft. In every single incidence, I ended up wishing I had taken the time, to do it right the first time. This is what 50+ years of fabricating, has taught me. Now I'm on the opposite end of the scale, I waste far too much time making things perfect, instead of good enough. Hard balance to maintain, good enough. I do a lot of building with my much younger neighbour, who manages to get things done and get going (good enough). He is out fishing while I am still improving on the angles of the plumbing on my boat heat exchanger hoses.
Good luck with your very impressive machine.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:24 am

Well, I took a real good look tonight and I've decided I'm not going to do independent suspension. It would require scrapping the whole rear end and rebuild from scratch and I'm not willing to do that. However I do have some good news. I played around with things tonight and came up with a plan for the CV angle problem. By the way Guys, Thanks for pointing it out. I had considered it to be a possible problem but was in severe denial.

So here are the issues I'm facing.
1. CV angles are wrong but cant move diff up due to rear batt location.
2. Too much weight on the rear, have to put 120 psi in the monoshock to support rear end with me on it
2b. Suspension obviously is not very responsive with this arrangement.
3. Without independent rear suspension I need to keep weight LOW and WIDE.

I can improve all of these problems drastically by moving the batteries. The batteries will be moved apart from each other and forward and down all at the same time. I'm going to compress the rear suspension with a ratchet strap and measure to aim to have the batteries only 1" above the lower control arm. I am also going to bring the batteries forward till their basically in line with the front of the rear tires which will make the rear suspension more responsive. By moving them out toward the tires I will increase lateral stability making it harder to roll.

I was also Bummed that the batteries hid the motor from viewing at the back so asthetically it will be more pleasing to me with the new arrangement.
Here's a pic.
Image
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:39 am

Here's a couple more pics of progress.

Image


Image
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:08 pm

Well, Things are looking up, Way up! I re-made my rear battery mounts as I planned and just finished wiring up the controller and rear batteries as my cabling changed with the new location. As well, Saturday I had a receptical installed in my parking stall so I could charge the bike. It feels like my mental checklist of several hundred items is finally almost done, like maybe 4 or 5 items to go. If all goes to plan I will be making some ABS covers to enclose the batteries tonight and the bike will be looking pretty good I'd think. I just took it for a drive in the back lot and it's performing pretty well. Currently geared for about 90kph I believe, but won't know for sure until I try. I will post up some pics soon of the progress.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:12 am

Well, Here's pics of how the Bike Currently looks. Just as Boxy but a lot less ugly. It will be interesting to see what it looks like once all the panels are made. The panels were made starting with a cardboard template. I traced the template to the 1/16" AbS Sheet, cut it out with scissors, and then laid the bend lines down on a heat strip to do the straight lines. Once all the straight lines were done I switched to the Heat Gun and heated up areas to hand shape them. All went well until my heat Gun Self destructed. (DONT BUY A MASTERCRAFT HEAT GUN) (My last one caught on fire in my hand!) :shock:

This time all that happened was the fan started tuning faster and faster and I started smelling burned circuit board components. I turned it off b4 it burst into flames.

Image
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Image
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Gordo » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:33 am

Looks great. A solid commuter. Hope to see it in person one day soon.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Hillhater » Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:44 pm

Chain guard ??? :shock: :lol:
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:39 pm

Still a work in progress, I am planning on enclosing everything and will be incorporating scoops to channel air from the front onto the motor, a glove/tool box over top of the chargers, (Which will Flip up for Charging) and yes, Even a chain Guard! WOOHOOO!!! :P Honestly, I was thinking it would be necessary but not 100% sure about it because Motorcycle chains are not particularly enclosed. Didn't like the idea of a rock landing between a chain and a sprocket. :shock:
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Hillhater » Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:50 pm

.. :o Its the location of the chain ,..and what it may damage it it broke and flailed around .. :shock: :oops: :cry:
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Gordo » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:22 pm

Some one may have experienced a broken chain that flailed around? I have broken several chains on motorcycles and seen several more broken over the years. In every case, the chain did no damage, just spit out on the ground. I have seen pictures of a broken chain piling up at the drive sprocket and breaking the case. Don't know how often this happens? Chain guard may cause more problems than they solve? Trapping a chain and making it pile up.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:45 pm

Interesting point Gordo :!: I may still do it but just make the guard fit loosly. If it happened under throttle on I would expect the motor to just pull it around the lower sprocket and then spew it up against the bottom of the seat and land somewhere. If it happened during regen it might pile up between the sprocket and the inside of the fork locking up the rear tires. I don't know, it's a tough one??? :?: Maybe not a chain guard that encloses the bottom but rather more of a deflector to prevent rocks from getting launched into the chain. Might be the best compromise. :?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby liveforphysics » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:53 pm

Gordo wrote:Some one may have experienced a broken chain that flailed around? I have broken several chains on motorcycles and seen several more broken over the years. In every case, the chain did no damage, just spit out on the ground. I have seen pictures of a broken chain piling up at the drive sprocket and breaking the case. Don't know how often this happens? Chain guard may cause more problems than they solve? Trapping a chain and making it pile up.



I had a chain break that ripped the heal off my super strong riding boot, left the heal of my foot black and purple, broke off the foot peg mount, and put 1/8" deep gouges in the steel tubes of the frame, and broke the tranny case.

If you're breaking chains and they just fall to the ground, you might just be wearing through them until something falls apart rather than tearing them in half from shock loading.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:04 pm

liveforphysics wrote:
I had a chain break that ripped the heal off my super strong riding boot, left the heal of my foot black and purple, broke off the foot peg mount, and put 1/8" deep gouges in the steel tubes of the frame, and broke the tranny case.

If you're breaking chains and they just fall to the ground, you might just be wearing through them until something falls apart rather than tearing them in half from shock loading.


:shock: Yikes! That's quite the story. Did you take pics of your heel? I have yet to break a chain, actually, I have yet to drive the bike down the road. We were just discussing options of chain guard or not. I'm certainly glad to have this discussion.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Gordo » Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:21 am

If, and it is a big if, I put a chain guard on, I would leave lots of space around the chain and the bottom open so the chain can run out. You don't want the chain piling up and stopping the back wheels unexpectedly.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Hillhater » Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:53 am

Conventional Mbike chains are well down , out of harms way, running relatively slowly.... and with the gearcase shroud to control things if there is a failure.
Your drive chain is a different configuration, running fast, and VERY close to important body parts..legs , thighs, wedding tackle, etc . IF that chain even pops off the lower sprocket whilst under power it will make a mess of anything in its path.
Fit a chain guard ..A strong one !
..but sure.. leave plenty of space between the guard and the sprocket
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Gordo » Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:38 pm

To be clear; All of the chains I have broken and have seen broken, happened while either drag racing or hill climbing. The chains just spooled off on the ground.

I did a search for info and found 134 reasons for a Darwin Award;

http://www.springerlink.com/content/u651412p0570p214/

Cleaning the chain while it is in motion. :shock: :shock: :shock:
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